Graendal (Full Spoilers)

[albright]

I do not want to get this thread off track, however this is Graendal-death-specific, extremely recent, and is basically the single determining factor in her life or death so does need to be discussed some here. (I will also make a post in the BF thread with more BF theory type stuff later).

 

From August 1999, Australia Interview-RJ was quoted: "when balefire strikes a person" then proceeded to explain the effects of balefire on the person, their thread, and the people and things around them.

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,49645.msg1351120.html#msg1351120 (Full quote)

 

You are assuming balefire burns all things in the area during its entire "backward-burn" timeframe. However, the RJ quote above indicates it is only when a person is actually struck by the bar of Balefire that the backward-burning-thread effects take place.

 

If Graendal left via gateway right when Ramshalan left, her thread and physical body would have been moved and never struck by balefire at all. The palace and the occupants' threads in the pattern are hit in the present then burned backwards, yes, however in this possibility Graendal's body/thread were never contacted by the BF to ignite the backward-burning.

 

In your theory, Rand could have burned Rahvin out of the pattern with Balefire by weaving balefire of that strength in any area Rahvin had walked through in the previous hour or so (since that is how long we know the BF's effects burned back with Mat's death/non-death).

[1eejit]

In your theory, Rand could have burned Rahvin out of the pattern with Balefire by weaving balefire of that strength in any area Rahvin had walked through in the previous hour or so (since that is how long we know the BF's effects burned back with Mat's death/non-death).

Exactly. And also if that were how it then Rand would be dead. The first time Rahvin tried to balefire Rand he dodged it by a fraction of a second. That proves that balefire doesn't go backwards through time, rather, what it hits is burned backward. RJ even says that himself.

When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn't simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit

Bob's still getting it wrong.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You're both still getting it wrong, which is why we can't discuss it here.  That would just duplicate the balefire thread.

[albright]

No more BF discussion here is fine.

 

However it needs to be clear in this thread that your theory is not accepted by all (or even the majority it seems), so the possibility that she did leave via gateway before the balefire and survive is there.

[Archimedes]

Considering the secretive, not to mention very careful nature of Graendal, I do not think she died.  If, while sitting in her SUPER SECRET hideout, the increasingly unstable Dragon Reborn sends a messenger to her front door, I think the figurative back door would have been used before the messengers fist hit the door for the second knock.  She had another lay the heavy Compulsion on his mind while she was boogying.

 

Speaking of Compulsion, RJ has referenced before her subtle ability at that skill.  If she was to send the messenger back, it would not be with such a ham-handed use of Compulsion on him.  I do not presume to say that she would have used her best talent at it, but not such a obvious effort either.

[StefanR]

Does anybody know why Graendal went to Shayol Ghul, and had been all but promised the position of Nae’blis?

[Samudor]

What you say makes sense archimedes, except for one problem. There is no one for her to tell to use compulsion on that guy. Even if she did have evil channelers around her, I highly doubt she would teach a "primitive" anything so dangerous as compulsion. You forget that "delegating" that responsiblity implies trust- something Graendal wouldn't give to her aged grandmother(Bayle Domon baby!). Secondly, Graendal loves to ruin minds with compulsion- it's like a hobby. To be honest, her demise is mostly the way I pictured it- while she is no coward, only and idiot would challenge Rand face to face when she does not have the power necessary to win.

[lsm]

there really is no need for other channelers. graendal could of just tied off the compulsion so it would dissipate on it's own. rahvin does exactly that in TFOH prologue

 

if graendal is as smart as rand says, would she of thought of the trap and figured, i will be balefired soon.

 

i hope she is toast though, otherwise that entire balefire scene was just to show us rand can be so ruthless hunting the forsaken?

[Samudor]

That makes sense, except that in that prologue we also learn there is no way to hide that compulsion has been used on anyone no matter how good you are- as long as the delver knows what they're doing. It is difficult for me to believe that Nynaeve would be fooled. The compulsion would not have simply vanished that quickly- it would have dissipated, and there would have been evidence for Nynaeve to find. I think she is definitely dead, and I certainly hope so for Rand's sake- might be tough for him to learn he killed all those people for nothing.

[Eleint]

if graendal is as smart as rand says, would she of thought of the trap and figured, i will be balefired soon.

 

I personally think that attributing this level of foreknowledge to Graendal is the equivalent of giving her prescience.  'Some guy is coming who seems to be one of many from TDR != the entire palace will be balefired because the Dragon is bonkers!'

[Mr Ares]

Does anybody know why Graendal went to Shayol Ghul, and had been all but promised the position of Nae’blis?

No. Well, probably Brandon, Harriet, and so on. Not us, though. We have to make do with guesses. Her killing Asmo is a popular theory.

[Ged]

Honestly, sending that buffoon back compelled has to be among the most retarded decisions possible. More useful to find other people Rand trusts and compel them.

 

Beyond that, staying at the palace once her security had been compromised was an incredible risk, considering you had no idea what Rand would be planning next. She should've left on the 'just in case' assumption, and come back days later to see if everything was fine.

 

I'd have bloody well panicked in her position :P

[Mr Ares]

Because panic is usually what's advised in a crisis.

[Crael123]

I think that everybody is overestimating Grans intelligence, she is NOT omnipotent she can not see every possibility she is not a god. she is very smart but not THAT smart. also she didnt know how far Rand had fallen in his insanity, i am not sure if she had heard about semi yet i will check.

 

but she is dead. we should get our weeping out of our system so next year we can fully enjoy TOM

[StefanR]

IF, and that's a big IF, Graendal is alive, she might have compelled another Aes Sedai to compell Rand's guy, so Rand though that he had killed Graendal and therefore didn't spend more time looking to kill her.

[FanoLan]

One point about this debate I haven't seen mentioned and I think bears some relevance to the dialogue.  Grandael would have no idea that Rand, or anyone with him, would be able to detect Compulsion, much less reverse the effects.  Not a deal-sealer, but indicative IMO.

[The Fisher King]

I would just like to offer one thought on Graendal:

 

When the speculation first began that she may not have been killed and is still alive, I thought ''Ohhhhhhhh No! Not ANOTHER repitition of a Forsaken dies but comes back and really is alive again'' ... but, then i realized this would not be a repition at all...every other case has been a Forsaken being truly killed but reincarnated in different body by Dark One...this would be the first time that a Forsake was actually thought dead but maybe truly still alive in their ownoriginal body...so, because of that, i could go with it...barely...

 

 

Fish

[lillcheese]

One point about this debate I haven't seen mentioned and I think bears some relevance to the dialogue.  Grandael would have no idea that Rand, or anyone with him, would be able to detect Compulsion, much less reverse the effects.  Not a deal-sealer, but indicative IMO.

 

If she were smart, she wouldn't rely on Rand et al's lack of knowledge.  I would think by this point she knows that severing can now be healed, something she thought was impossible.  She knows about the Warder bond which was also a thing unknown in the AOL.  She might know that weave destroying ter'angreal exist.

 

I could be wrong, this is only my impression, but Graendal seems the least contemptuous of the current society.  I could see Demandred, Mesaana or Cyndane assuming the "so-called Aes Sedai" could never detect a compulsion.  I find it less plausible in Graendal.

 

But then, I'm hoping she's alive.

[FanoLan]

One point about this debate I haven't seen mentioned and I think bears some relevance to the dialogue.  Grandael would have no idea that Rand, or anyone with him, would be able to detect Compulsion, much less reverse the effects.  Not a deal-sealer, but indicative IMO.

 

If she were smart, she wouldn't rely on Rand et al's lack of knowledge.  I would think by this point she knows that severing can now be healed, something she thought was impossible.  She knows about the Warder bond which was also a thing unknown in the AOL.  She might know that weave destroying ter'angreal exist.

 

I could be wrong, this is only my impression, but Graendal seems the least contemptuous of the current society.  I could see Demandred, Mesaana or Cyndane assuming the "so-called Aes Sedai" could never detect a compulsion.  I find it less plausible in Graendal.

 

But then, I'm hoping she's alive.

 

It wouldn't entirely surprise me since Rand destroys a different lair than what Sammael described and we haven't seen her move in the interim.  Of course, she likely has more than one "safe-house" set up for a quick escape but that wasn't how the scene played out either.  At first I was entirely convinced she is toast, now a bit more of a chance than I had given it earlier.

[TheBeerPatriot]

This topic has been well covered here.  I do hope Graendal is alive, because she is a great character and I think it would be a shame to have her death appear off screen. 

 

As I mentioned on a different topic, all Forsaken deaths (with the possible exception of Sammael) have been seen "on-screen".  With so much character development given to Graendal, it would be a shame to have her removed from the last couple of books.  As someone else mentioned here, the alliance with Aran'gar has not been covered yet, and I'm sure that is not a plot line that would just be dropped. 

 

I do understand those that have stated that Graendal's survival would demean the dark journey that Rand took during that part of TGS.  But I feel that her survival would not negatively impact or dilute what Rand went through that much.  Here's hoping she's alive for the last two books.

[Dakota]

Does anybody know why Graendal went to Shayol Ghul, and had been all but promised the position of Nae’blis?

No. Well, probably Brandon, Harriet, and so on. Not us, though. We have to make do with guesses. Her killing Asmo is a popular theory.

 

I was under the impression that the Dark One probably called all of the Forsaken that were alive at that time and promised to make them Nae'blis to try and keep them in line.  Of the forsakens that weren't killed off, we saw two betray the DO to become Rand's teacher and Elayne/Egwyne/Nynaeve's teacher, and saw another one plotting to join with Rand to overthrow the DO, and then tried to kill Rand prematurely because she found out that he had slept with someone else.  I figured that the DO probably called all the rest of the Forsakens to Shayol Ghul to tell them "Don't screw up and do what I tell you, and I'll make you Nae'blis.  Demandred's was just the only one we saw on camera, and Graendal's was mentioned afterwards by her, and before we had the chance to see the others imply that they had their visits, Moridin had shown up and become Nae'blis for real.

[Echizen]

I believe she is dead because of the way the storyline was going at that point, i.e. it emphasized how hard Rand had become that he BF'd a woman and her entire mansion with hardly a second thought. This was such a low point for Rand's sanity and to have Graendal still alive undermines the whole scene somewhat. BS has said her name will crop up in the next book (note: he said her name would crop up, he didn't say Graendal the character would appear - though this could just be semantics). I think Moridin, perhaps, will confirm to the other Forsaken that Graendal is dead, and maybe mention at the same time that she offed Asmo.

 

The way the storyline was going, perhaps that would be a conclusion. I think the way Rand was hyping her up to be much smarter and more clever than himself leads me to a different conclusion. When playing a game of chess, and you know you will lose, punching your opponent in the face would not work if your opponent expects it. Sending one man a lord to her, with out any escort whatsoever would put her suspicions up. He expected a tiny amount of compulsion and she gave him a lot. (which proves she didn't care if he found out she was there)  So she fled immediately, probably to a surrounding area to see what happens.

 

When he struck the castle with balfire she released the weave of compulsion. You cannot believe her to be dead with never a mention of her death, nor a corpse. Every other important character who died, was definitely dead. This isn't some joke, where she "has" to be dead, especially since she was hyped up for her cleverness only a few moments before she apparently died. Foreshadowing.

 

Now if in the next book it is mentioned that Grendal is dead by one of the 3 people (Morridin, Shadar Haran, Dark one) Then it would be confirmed. Until it is confirmed I consider it to be another misleading death for the fans to speculate about, but more directly another "Sammuel" incident where Rand thinks another forsaken dead mistakingly.

[Echizen]

There's evidence for and against her death thats been presented over and over AND OVER again in less than a month.

 

I think she's alive... BS and RJ never liked to kill characters off screen... the exception being Sammael, but at least we know exactly where he was when mashadar comes down because Rand saw him.  We don't see Graendal when she "dies".

 

She'll be back and will play a key role along with demandred.  They are the only two reliable forsaken imo. Even Ishy got too power hungry at one point.

 

Isn't Sammael alive? Wasn't it him that is in command of a ghoalm, and sent the army of 100,000 trollics to his hideout when him and logain killed most of them?

 

I agree Grednal is most likely alive and I will not believe her dead until someone who can know for sure explicitly states her dead. Mainly Shadar Haran, The dark one, and possibly Morridin.

[Jemlin]

I believe she is dead because of the way the storyline was going at that point, i.e. it emphasized how hard Rand had become that he BF'd a woman and her entire mansion with hardly a second thought. This was such a low point for Rand's sanity and to have Graendal still alive undermines the whole scene somewhat. BS has said her name will crop up in the next book (note: he said her name would crop up, he didn't say Graendal the character would appear - though this could just be semantics). I think Moridin, perhaps, will confirm to the other Forsaken that Graendal is dead, and maybe mention at the same time that she offed Asmo.

 

The way the storyline was going, perhaps that would be a conclusion. I think the way Rand was hyping her up to be much smarter and more clever than himself leads me to a different conclusion. When playing a game of chess, and you know you will lose, punching your opponent in the face would not work if your opponent expects it. Sending one man a lord to her, with out any escort whatsoever would put her suspicions up. He expected a tiny amount of compulsion and she gave him a lot. (which proves she didn't care if he found out she was there)  So she fled immediately, probably to a surrounding area to see what happens.

 

When he struck the castle with balfire she released the weave of compulsion. You cannot believe her to be dead with never a mention of her death, nor a corpse. Every other important character who died, was definitely dead. This isn't some joke, where she "has" to be dead, especially since she was hyped up for her cleverness only a few moments before she apparently died. Foreshadowing.

 

Now if in the next book it is mentioned that Grendal is dead by one of the 3 people (Morridin, Shadar Haran, Dark one) Then it would be confirmed. Until it is confirmed I consider it to be another misleading death for the fans to speculate about, but more directly another "Sammuel" incident where Rand thinks another forsaken dead mistakingly.

 

She

Is

Dead

 

Besides, should couldn't just "release" a weave of compulsion at a distance and at her choosing.  First off, compulsion is a heavily complicated and intricate weave hooking onto the smallest parts of our brain.  Key word as Nyneave described it, *hooks*...which means, not being removed easily.  Secondly, although the boy Nyneave healed had heavy compulsion, it was horribly long and difficult to remove it.  There is nothing leading us to believe a compulsion weave can be made to work as well and not be as difficult to remove...hence, having it primed to be released.  Thirdly, the only way she could have *released* the weave is if she was actively holding it and standing next to the guy at the time of release.  Otherwise, a weave tha was knotted to fade out would have been easily noticed by Nyneave, especially since the basic compulsion itself would have to be different.

 

I'm sorry, but that explanation of how she could still be alive doesn't hold up.

 

Try again.

 

[Dakota]

I believe she is dead because of the way the storyline was going at that point, i.e. it emphasized how hard Rand had become that he BF'd a woman and her entire mansion with hardly a second thought. This was such a low point for Rand's sanity and to have Graendal still alive undermines the whole scene somewhat. BS has said her name will crop up in the next book (note: he said her name would crop up, he didn't say Graendal the character would appear - though this could just be semantics). I think Moridin, perhaps, will confirm to the other Forsaken that Graendal is dead, and maybe mention at the same time that she offed Asmo.

 

The way the storyline was going, perhaps that would be a conclusion. I think the way Rand was hyping her up to be much smarter and more clever than himself leads me to a different conclusion. When playing a game of chess, and you know you will lose, punching your opponent in the face would not work if your opponent expects it. Sending one man a lord to her, with out any escort whatsoever would put her suspicions up. He expected a tiny amount of compulsion and she gave him a lot. (which proves she didn't care if he found out she was there)  So she fled immediately, probably to a surrounding area to see what happens.

 

When he struck the castle with balfire she released the weave of compulsion. You cannot believe her to be dead with never a mention of her death, nor a corpse. Every other important character who died, was definitely dead. This isn't some joke, where she "has" to be dead, especially since she was hyped up for her cleverness only a few moments before she apparently died. Foreshadowing.

 

Now if in the next book it is mentioned that Grendal is dead by one of the 3 people (Morridin, Shadar Haran, Dark one) Then it would be confirmed. Until it is confirmed I consider it to be another misleading death for the fans to speculate about, but more directly another "Sammuel" incident where Rand thinks another forsaken dead mistakingly.

 

She

Is

Dead

 

Besides, should couldn't just "release" a weave of compulsion at a distance and at her choosing.  First off, compulsion is a heavily complicated and intricate weave hooking onto the smallest parts of our brain.  Key word as Nyneave described it, *hooks*...which means, not being removed easily.  Secondly, although the boy Nyneave healed had heavy compulsion, it was horribly long and difficult to remove it.  There is nothing leading us to believe a compulsion weave can be made to work as well and not be as difficult to remove...hence, having it primed to be released.  Thirdly, the only way she could have *released* the weave is if she was actively holding it and standing next to the guy at the time of release.  Otherwise, a weave tha was knotted to fade out would have been easily noticed by Nyneave, especially since the basic compulsion itself would have to be different.

 

I'm sorry, but that explanation of how she could still be alive doesn't hold up.

 

Try again.

 

 

Well, Graendal knows more about compulsion than anyone, and if there was a way to release it from a distance, she would be the one to know how.  And unless one of us has real life day to day experience using the power, then none of us really have any way to definitively say that she couldn't do something.  They can't make themselves fly, and they can't bring the dead back to life.  Those are about the only two things that it's been explicitly said "can't be done."

 

I personally think she's dead, just because we're at the point in the series that loose ends need to start being tied up in haste.  I'm just saying that if there -was- a way to juryrig the compulsion to fade away when she wanted it, Graendal would likely be the one to know it.