The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[aunt_pol]

I can't qualify this, but I reckon that's not 4-6, finished 6 last week. I do agree with you totally, though, there's somethin' majorly stinky about them Basheres.

 

Tenobia's Queen. Except she's off gallivanting round every country but her own with her co-rulers of Blight border countries.

 

Davram was sent to find Taim. He manages to restrain himself from killing said miscreant, after not recognising him when face to face.

 

Deira is haughty on legs, and something I can't even catch annoys me hugely about her.

 

Faile improved, marginally, once Perrin put some manners on her, but then she goes & kills Masema without a word to anyone. Perrin wonders what he's to say to Rand. No wonder. Rand could legitimately be a bit peeved that Perrin was swanning around the country for what seemed like months with Masema, then just lets him vanish? Bit careless.

 

Sorry I've gone way off topic here, but I'm totally delighted to find someone who (at least partially) agrees with me!

A betrayal by a Bashere of either gender would be a great jawdropper, all the same, if it happened at the wrong time.

 

 

AND, just remembered, the only other ppl Min saw darkness or confused auras around, IIRC, were Forsaken & some Darkfriends. Obv Davram's not Demandred in disguise, but he could be a big stinker all the same.

[Nethran Thaimal]

I think the message Bashere recieved was from Logain.  Bashere was in Caemlyn at the time, so they were close, and they arrived to see Rand together.  So I'm like 98% sure that's what it is.  I think it's in Crossroads of Twilight, anyway, so it doesn't qualify.

 

As to the darkness around Bashere, I have no idea...  It doesn't seem likely that he would be such a great general for Rand and turn out to be a darkfriend.  I always liked him anyway.  Rand was the jerk of the two, in my opinion.  Bashere was grounded and realistic. 

 

No one has anything to say about the ginormous quote I put together? D:

[Sa souvraya niende misain]

aunt pol - I remember when taim and Bashere meet and don't recognize each other, i immediately assumed Taim was someone else like Demandred (which I know has been talked about a lot).  But then, when Faile and Perin go to meet him, I realized that I was subconsciously waiting to see if Faile would have a problem with davram acting 'differently', that he was the imposter.  But it didn't seem to work out that way.  I do like Davram better than the Bashere women, though something just doesn't add up with D.  I particularly liked when rand was going kind of nuts holding one of the seals, about to shatter it, and Bashere grabs him, saying 'you need to hold on a little longer, buddy'.

 

Nethran - you mean Taim, not Logain, right?  I think that Logain was already in TV and stilled by this time, maybe even escaped with Siuan.  I had guessed it was a Black Ajah overture, but not very confidently.

 

Anyway, looks like it happens well after book 6.

[Nethran Thaimal]

No one except Tumad was close enough to hear him, but he spoke softly anyway, and chose his words cautiously. Sometimes, the price of carelessness was death, too. “You know where to find the man who came to me yesterday? Find him, and tell him I agree, but there will be a few more than we talked about.”

 

Nope, meant that part. :)  It's Logain Bashere's talking about, I believe.

[StefanR]

AS created the ter angreals that made it so people couldn't channel didn't they?

 

As well, how did the Ogiers make it so that the One power could not be used if not for AS

[Nethran Thaimal]

AS created the ter angreals that made it so people couldn't channel didn't they?

 

As well, how did the Ogiers make it so that the One power could not be used if not for AS

 

1: Probably.  It makes a lot of sense.  Speculation on ter'angreal being made by the True Power is probably false in my opinion, but I can't say for 100%.  Just 99%. :D

 

2: Huh?

[witsd]

So what is it exactly that the DO does to the world him self? get into peoples heads and give them bad thoughts?

Yes, exactly that, or at least exaggerating the tiny bad thoughts people were having.

 

He was responsible for the people of the AoL going from fun-loving, rarely-grumbling, peaceful-types to envious, angry, violent bastards who decided to start a giant war without even knowing that the DO was the cause.

[NetSlider]

Regarding tarangreal being made with TP I must say that the idea is not very outlandish. I’ve posted this about Calandor before, but I have to agree that foxhead makes even more sense. We know that at first AS considered TP as something wonderful. We also know that in AoL items of power were made with both halves. We can safely assume that the war of the shadow did not start right after Lanfear’s experiment and that AS tried using TP. So, why not make item of power with TP? It only makes sense.

 

When it comes to support this, fox head probably is the best case. In order to make something that would withstand OP one has to use OP. Or maybe not. Elain says something about how it would be impossible for her to study something that weaves don’t touch. So, how can you make an item of power with the power that at the end the same power cannot touch it? I think only with TP. And remember, Met said he wants to be done with “AS and One Power.” There is nothing about TP and we know how tricky Finns are.

 

Also, Calandor is something very interesting. I believe it was used to seal DO by LTT (see post in General Forum; reference to the video game opening). I also think that it was not successful because it was not either used properly or used to its full potential. And I also think that “three becoming one” is actually two halves of OP and TP (interesting how they mention the whole issue of three becoming one in the book where Rand actually touches TP ;)). Now, it always bugged me that Calandor was so unknown and that we have no clue as far as to who made it, when, why, and how. We have no idea how it was put in the stone and by whom. And we have no idea why is it so special to the prophecy and the dragon and yet there is something wrong with it where Rand must be linked with two women. Here is my question – says who? Cady? What if Rand must be linked with other two, and not just women. Moraine (saidar), Logain (saidin), and Rand (TP)? Makes more sense to me and answers all the questions about Logain’s glory and Moraine’s needed help.

 

In anyway, I would not dismiss TP used to make items of power just yet.

 

[LaserRain]

First time post. Read something on first page of this thread someone mention when Nyna and Elayne use need to find something in the world of dreams that will bind the aes sedai to Rand. Didn't feel like reading all 138 pages to see if it is ever mentioned again, but I got to about p.20 without seeing anyone else mention it. The first time they jump is to somewhere in the White Tower isn't it? They decide whatever is there will be unattainable at the moment so they move on. Has anybody considered they were brought to where the oath rod was being kept. They were only brought to the room and moved on before truly searching or trying need to find something in that particular room. I haven't been lurking here for a while so I don't know to what length this or the oath rod in general has been discussed here but the oath rod(s) and binding and unbinding of these oaths have been used more and more in the books from what I can see. I remember the two we know of have different markings(can't remember what the marking were) but maybe other ones or the ones we know of will be of use in the upcoming events as well.

 

First time ever truly thinking/discussing this series of books so feel free to rip this theory up lol.

[Sharaman]

If TP was commonly used to make ter'angreals would LTT, the greatest channeler of the AoL have been so unfamiliar with it and so afraid of it?

He deduces that Moridin used the "so-called True Power" at Shadar Logoth but he's never encountered the TP himself.

He is horrified when he grasped it himself.

I'm not sure that you can safely assume that TP was "widely used" between the drilling and the War.

For one thing, it always required GLoD's permission to channel TP and those who swore allegiance to GLoD tended to hide their affiliations until fairly late into the game. Second, it's addictive and has terrible effects.  

 

Doesn't invalidate the possibility of TP ter'angreal but it makes it more unlikely.

In the AoL ter'angreal were made with both "halves of OP" - Saidin + Saidar.

I think Callandor was made after the sealing of the Bore. It's first seen around the time the EotW is being made.

 

[dflinn]

First time post. Read something on first page of this thread someone mention when Nyna and Elayne use need to find something in the world of dreams that will bind the aes sedai to Rand. Didn't feel like reading all 138 pages to see if it is ever mentioned again, but I got to about p.20 without seeing anyone else mention it. The first time they jump is to somewhere in the White Tower isn't it? They decide whatever is there will be unattainable at the moment so they move on. Has anybody considered they were brought to where the oath rod was being kept. They were only brought to the room and moved on before truly searching or trying need to find something in that particular room. I haven't been lurking here for a while so I don't know to what length this or the oath rod in general has been discussed here but the oath rod(s) and binding and unbinding of these oaths have been used more and more in the books from what I can see. I remember the two we know of have different markings(can't remember what the marking were) but maybe other ones or the ones we know of will be of use in the upcoming events as well.

 

First time ever truly thinking/discussing this series of books so feel free to rip this theory up lol.

One of the more logical places to find the ring of tamrylin

[Nethran Thaimal]

Now, it always bugged me that Calandor was so unknown and that we have no clue as far as to who made it, when, why, and how. We have no idea how it was put in the stone and by whom. And we have no idea why is it so special to the prophecy and the dragon and yet there is something wrong with it where Rand must be linked with two women.

 

He shivered, wondering if men would ever stand in a meeting such as this again. When he saw what was on the table, the shiver became a shudder. A crystal sword—perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament; he had no way of telling—held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the cursed man as well?

 

“What good is your Foretelling,” Oselle was almost shouting, “if you cannot tell us when?” Her long black hair swayed as she shook with anger. “The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself!”

 

Dark eyed Deindre faced her with a more usual calm. “I am not the Creator. I can only tell you what I Foretell.”

 

Solves part of the mystery for you. :)  No idea how it was made stll, though.

[Bastor]

First time post. Read something on first page of this thread someone mention when Nyna and Elayne use need to find something in the world of dreams that will bind the aes sedai to Rand. Didn't feel like reading all 138 pages to see if it is ever mentioned again, but I got to about p.20 without seeing anyone else mention it. The first time they jump is to somewhere in the White Tower isn't it? They decide whatever is there will be unattainable at the moment so they move on. Has anybody considered they were brought to where the oath rod was being kept. They were only brought to the room and moved on before truly searching or trying need to find something in that particular room. I haven't been lurking here for a while so I don't know to what length this or the oath rod in general has been discussed here but the oath rod(s) and binding and unbinding of these oaths have been used more and more in the books from what I can see. I remember the two we know of have different markings(can't remember what the marking were) but maybe other ones or the ones we know of will be of use in the upcoming events as well.

 

First time ever truly thinking/discussing this series of books so feel free to rip this theory up lol.

I do not remember the oath rod markings but they all have numbers and those are their own like...number....from what we have seen there are at least 100 made...right? I think we saw one with a very high number....

[witsd]

When it comes to support this, fox head probably is the best case. In order to make something that would withstand OP one has to use OP. Or maybe not. Elain says something about how it would be impossible for her to study something that weaves don’t touch. So, how can you make an item of power with the power that at the end the same power cannot touch it?

Well, off the top of my head, how about making the thing in two halves, one half made with Saidin that blocks Saidar, and the other half the opposite.

 

Then you just snap them together, and hey presto.

 

Alternatively, you create the thing, and the very last power-craftsmanship is the activation.

 

You don't need to grasp at (in my opinion) really unlikely theories for this one.

[NetSlider]

If TP was commonly used to make ter'angreals would LTT, the greatest channeler of the AoL have been so unfamiliar with it and so afraid of it?

He deduces that Moridin used the "so-called True Power" at Shadar Logoth but he's never encountered the TP himself.

He is horrified when he grasped it himself.

I'm not sure that you can safely assume that TP was "widely used" between the drilling and the War.

For one thing, it always required GLoD's permission to channel TP and those who swore allegiance to GLoD tended to hide their affiliations until fairly late into the game. Second, it's addictive and has terrible effects.  

 

Doesn't invalidate the possibility of TP ter'angreal but it makes it more unlikely.

In the AoL ter'angreal were made with both "halves of OP" - Saidin + Saidar.

I think Callandor was made after the sealing of the Bore. It's first seen around the time the EotW is being made.

 

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you.

 

1. The reason why LTT is unfamiliar and afraid of TP is because of course he knows what it does to a person. Now, I never said that it was commonly used in AoL as a given but that it stands to reason that it was used before people actually knew what it does. The use of TP does not require an open or committed allegiance to DO. Rand did not swore to the DO but still has used TP. DO actually "tricked" Rand to use it, you may say. It is clear DO grants the use of it but it is completely logical for DO to grant the use to anyone who wants it. Remember that sometimes people serve the DO without knowing. And it all seems to lead to chaos.

 

Another part to this is that we also don't know when LTT came into the picture as a leader. We certainly don't know if he was even an AS when the bore was made. It is believed that the War of Shadow begun about 80-120 years after Lanfear unleashed the DO (I'm not sure on this number, but i remember it was a big number). For all we know maybe there were (and the way they are I would actually argue there really were) AS that believed that TP can be studied, or used, or controlled. We don't even know when Lanfear joined and swore to DO.

 

2. As far as Calandor goes, I think that it was indeed made before the bore was made. Furthermore, I also think that LTT used it at the sealing of the prison. My reasoning is simple and I've posted it here:

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,52170.0.html

 

If this reasoning holds than Calandor indeed was used at the sealing (which also ties it to the Dragon and maybe plays some part in how the sword recognized Rand). It seems that in order for an item to be able to recognize someone's soul (I mean, SOMEONE'S SOUL!!! nothing even close to this is being mentioned anywhere. the weave that held Calandor in the Stone alone deserves a forum page of its own) that item needs to have at least some sort of connection to that soul.

 

In any event, I find it interesting that TP is being addressed only now in books (I mean in a really significant and open way to Rand). It was definitely present from book one. Seems to me that there is a lead-in into more story about TP.

 

P.S. Another thought, and this is something I need to check, but when Ravin "killed" Met when Rand attacked Andor, was he definitely using Saidin? What if he was using TP? I have to re-read Rand's POV of that part. Just figured maybe someone remembers Rand specifically sensing Saidin channeled when those lightnings fell.

 

 

[NetSlider]

Not to change the subject, but does anyone else been losing their minds about this?

 

"The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

 

It's driving me insane!  ;D We know that snake and foxes are significant. I just think this might be somewhat providential as well.

 

Lions - Andor?

Hills (flying or running away?)

Moon by day - wolves? (stupid, i know)

Sun by night - no idea

Blind woman - no idea

Deaf man - Rand??? dont think so

jackdaw fool - Mat (is some weird way?)

 

Any thoughts?

[StefanR]

Not to change the subject, but does anyone else been losing their minds about this?

 

"The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

 

It's driving me insane!  ;D We know that snake and foxes are significant. I just think this might be somewhat providential as well.

 

Lions - Andor?

Hills (flying or running away?)

Moon by day - wolves? (stupid, i know)

Sun by night - no idea

Blind woman - no idea

Deaf man - Rand??? dont think so

jackdaw fool - Mat (is some weird way?)

 

Any thoughts?

 

Lions=Andor

Moon=Court of the nine moons=Seanchan

Sun by night=Maybe the Sun throne?

 

[Baramos]

I'm pretty sure I heard a great explanation of Sun by Night, but I can't remember it for the life of me. Maybe it was the battle at Shadar Logoth where the massive amount of channeling was felt for hundreds of miles and Nynaeve was shining extremely brightly like the sun due to the amount of Saidar being channeled.

 

This is tangential but I was under the impression that Rand was able to touch the True Power through his link with Moridin, and that Moridin's/the Dark One's influence was what created the "dark aura" around Rand for the rest of the novel.

 

Also I think Callandor being wielded by two women and a man linked is a red herring, I think the Three Becoming One is Rand, Lews Therin, and somehow Moridin through that forementioned weird link they have.

 

I'm thinking like crazy for something no one has discussed from books 4-6. I just saw mentioned recently the final scene of Lord of Chaos where Demandred is kneeling before the Dark One and asking, "Have I done well, my lord?" so maybe whatever it was that Demandred was supposed to have done is something that has been overlooked, but it seems like people must have talked about it quite a bit...

[nophone]

If TP was commonly used to make ter'angreals would LTT, the greatest channeler of the AoL have been so unfamiliar with it and so afraid of it?

He deduces that Moridin used the "so-called True Power" at Shadar Logoth but he's never encountered the TP himself.

He is horrified when he grasped it himself.

I'm not sure that you can safely assume that TP was "widely used" between the drilling and the War.

For one thing, it always required GLoD's permission to channel TP and those who swore allegiance to GLoD tended to hide their affiliations until fairly late into the game. Second, it's addictive and has terrible effects.  

 

Doesn't invalidate the possibility of TP ter'angreal but it makes it more unlikely.

In the AoL ter'angreal were made with both "halves of OP" - Saidin + Saidar.

I think Callandor was made after the sealing of the Bore. It's first seen around the time the EotW is being made.

 

 

That doesn't explain why you need 2 women to wield callandor because Rand would have to be the one weilding TP and someone else would have to hold saidin.

 

and don't forget about the

 

Paradox!!!

 

You need permission to channel it... but how could you get permission when the DO is sealed away behind the bore when aparently accessing the TP is what created the bore in the first place... AGH...

 

I wonder if she discovered the TP with a visit to the Finns?

[ed2funy]

Some people can access the TP without the DO's permission. That is what Rand did.

Lanfear and that other guy made the Bore using Saidin and Saidar I wonder why they weren't tainted right away :-\). Then they were able to access the TP.

[NetSlider]

Maybe the one to hold saidin is Logain. He suppose to step over another man's body. Think how much glory would a man get if he is one of three actually sealing the prison. And remember, that the DR does not guarantee the victory at the LB but only an opportunity for victory. Logain is almost as strong as Rand (besides, the amount of power is irrelevant here) and yet it is Rand that's the key. So, what can Rand do that Logain can't? Besides being taverin he used TP. Considering taverin is not something one is born with and always stays for the rest of life, pattern can make (or already did make at some point) Logain a taverin. So, at this point it seems that the only difference between Rand and any other channeling man is his connection to Moridin/DO which lets him tap into TP.

[Sharaman]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you.

That's perfectly cool - you made a coherent argument.  

 

1. The reason why LTT is unfamiliar and afraid of TP is because of course he knows what it does to a person. Now, I never said that it was commonly used in AoL as a given but that it stands to reason that it was used before people actually knew what it does. The use of TP does not require an open or committed allegiance to DO. Rand did not swore to the DO but still has used TP. DO actually "tricked" Rand to use it, you may say. It is clear DO grants the use of it but it is completely logical for DO to grant the use to anyone who wants it. Remember that sometimes people serve the DO without knowing. And it all seems to lead to chaos.

 

Another part to this is that we also don't know when LTT came into the picture as a leader. We certainly don't know if he was even an AS when the bore was made. It is believed that the War of Shadow begun about 80-120 years after Lanfear unleashed the DO (I'm not sure on this number, but i remember it was a big number). For all we know maybe there were (and the way they are I would actually argue there really were) AS that believed that TP can be studied, or used, or controlled. We don't even know when Lanfear joined and swore to DO.

 

I think he was already a big player in the Hall of the Servants at the time of the Bore - and he was definitely AS

Yes there was 100-year or thereabouts period between the Bore and the War. LTT was around 300 years old when the war happened - he's gray-haired - if we go by the appearance of LTT when Rand is fighting Rahvin in TAR. He was a sparker - so he would have been channeling at least 280 years. Hence, he was AS.

Note that he was senior to Mierin - he had three names and she was attracted to him at least partly due to his power if we make sense of the references when they chat. She was already a prominent researcher when she drilled the Bore.

No we don't know when Mierin swore her oath to GLoD and become Lanfear but there's a reference somewhere that she made a scene at his marriage. That may have been the trigger.  

About your take on TP - yes, it's possible. We differ on whether it's plausible. I think LTT's complete lack of TP-usage suggests it's not since it's likely that one of the strongest and cleverest channeller of the AoL would have investigated it. You differ.

 

 

2. As far as Calandor goes, I think that it was indeed made before the bore was made. Furthermore, I also think that LTT used it at the sealing of the prison. My reasoning is simple and I've posted it here:

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,52170.0.html

 

If this reasoning holds than Calandor indeed was used at the sealing (which also ties it to the Dragon and maybe plays some part in how the sword recognized Rand). It seems that in order for an item to be able to recognize someone's soul (I mean, SOMEONE'S SOUL!!! nothing even close to this is being mentioned anywhere. the weave that held Calandor in the Stone alone deserves a forum page of its own) that item needs to have at least some sort of connection to that soul.

 

In any event, I find it interesting that TP is being addressed only now in books (I mean in a really significant and open way to Rand). It was definitely present from book one. Seems to me that there is a lead-in into more story about TP.

 

P.S. Another thought, and this is something I need to check, but when Ravin "killed" Met when Rand attacked Andor, was he definitely using Saidin? What if he was using TP? I have to re-read Rand's POV of that part. Just figured maybe someone remembers Rand specifically sensing Saidin channeled when those lightnings fell.

 

The game is not really canon. In the books, the only references to Callandor are post-sealing and there is the problem about how a bunch of madmen brought it back from SG and how it ended up playing some role in the EotW. The wards in the Stone of Tear are mysterious indeed.

Rand recognises the Wards at Caemlyn FWIW.

 

 

You need permission to channel it... but how could you get permission when the DO is sealed away behind the bore when aparently accessing the TP is what created the bore in the first place... AGH...

 

I wonder if she discovered the TP with a visit to the Finns?

The Bore was made by drilling a "Hole" with Saidin+Saidar.

[nophone]

I'm almost positive that I read some place that callandor was created by the LTT him self... actually by LTT and Moridin (well his AoL self)... I feel like I recall it something like as follows. LTT had taken up practicing the sword in AoL as a hobby and had decided to make callandor in the image of a sword as sort of homage to the hobby. If I recall correctly Rand and Moridin were friends at the time and both of them forged this sword together because they sparred regularly. Unfortunately I have no idea where I read this, but DO remember discussing it with someone after reading it.

[NetSlider]

Good points.

 

In regards to LTT age I really never saw it anywhere to be referenced (but than again I'm new to the community and I already learned that only through forum conversations one can truly grasp many small details). Regardless, even if he was around when the bore was made it does not mean he would actually use TP. I think it stands to reason that if he was around and was one of the great AS with wisdom and small ambitions, he might have been cautious. Once again, I think the issue of TP was a big one after its discovery and it stands to reason that there were different camps of opinion. LTT might have simply been one of the AS that reserved his judgment about TP and did not use it (I know it is a "might" but it would explain his reaction to it).

Different opinions on issue in the AoL are evident even from the fact that no woman followed LTT to seal the prison. I'm afraid that there are a lot of "mights" in this but that's the best that is possible at this point.

In regards to Calandor was used at the sealing. At first, I thought the same thing - it's just a game. But than I thought about it more and how RJ was very small detail oriented. Plus, this is the only game ever released for the WoT and it is from the opening movie, and I'm sure 99.99% that before the release RJ personally saw that cut scene. If Calandor did not belong in there I think he would make a big deal about it (or at least make a public statement stating an error). At this point, that opening movie from the game is the only thing we have to relay upon (or at least the only thing I'm aware of)

[Agitel]

Lews Therin's hair had more gray than color. Add in Aes Sedai slowing, no binding, and Age of Legends lifespan (60s being the prime of one's life for non-channelers?) and I'd say Lews Therin had certainly been around a while.

 

And people seem to be missing the most obvious reason why Rand could access the True Power: his link with Moridin. I doubt this ability was granted by the Dark One to the Dragon.

 

Not to change the subject, but does anyone else been losing their minds about this?

 

"The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

 

It's driving me insane!  ;D We know that snake and foxes are significant. I just think this might be somewhat providential as well.

 

I'd like to focus less on lions and more on sing. I think the Aiel will take up singing, along with the Tuatha'an. The Aiel, a warrior people, these 'lions' are going to sing again and help things grow.  I'm not sure about hills take flight. I always took the part about the moon and the sun more literally, which is probably a mistake, but with the Pattern unraveling and what not it seemed to fit. I'm still thinking on the trio mentioned.