The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Auld Manriva]

First of all I don't think they can KILL the DO. He's on a level, though maybe lower, with The Creator. A non physical entity, though with reputed human motivations, though this might just be human misconceptions caused by trying to explain something unexplainable.

 

The seals are likely intact though weakened. What "we" call seals are NOT. They are focus points for the actual seals on the Bore itself.

 

The Bore is a small hole drilled in the Pattern. In order for the DO to be able to fully enter "reality" or in effect "The Pattern", it must be expanded. To keep the DO outside the Pattern, LTT and the Hundred Companions in essence "patched" it. Like caulking a hole in a brick wall rather than using "new bricks".

 

From my reading I think this (the seals acting as a Patch) has to be removed so The Pattern can be repaired with new "bricks and mortar".  Or the Pattern itself acts as the "Mason" and re-weaves itself.

 

Anyone "inside and of" the Pattern cannot destroy IT or The Wheel of Time. Whether they can "repair" it, or how they can remains to be seen. To me, it's conceivable that Rand, if he's clean of any influence from the DO and with help, may be able to force the DO to retreat from the thin spot in the Pattern (where the Bore was made)  for a period long enough for the Pattern itself to make the needed "re-weaving". I'm thinking possibly that couldn't be done previously because of the DO's touch directly on the Bore.

 

To do this, all the Forsaken are gonna have to be eliminated, because they will defend the "unsealed" Bore and actually attempt to expand it. Their first attempt to expand it is what actually opened the ten year War of Power, so it's obvious to me they'd attempt it again.

 

 

** of course none of this has a THING to do with "tBUT"

[RAMb0211]

Well technically the Creator isn't even there anymore. If Lews Therin/Rand's philosophy on the subject is to be believed then the creator planted the seeds of life and moved on like a gardener planting flowers. Frankly i see no cause for providing this age-old and wise characters insight on the subject if it wasn't true. The only possible motivation would be to throw readers off and have an epic arrival of the Creator in the final hour. I think Rand will permanently defeat the DO and life will proceed without the interference of these higher beings. I hope this isn't all leading to a simple resealing, but i suppose i could live with it if it does.

[Auld Manriva]

I don't quite understand how anyone thinks this will be anything But a re-sealing. This universe has a circular TIME. The Wheel of Time is Time itself. There are seven ages, each Age eventually comes around Again..

 

This is a story of ONE... 3rd Age. How IT dealt with IT's Battle with the Dark One. The FOURTH Age will have, eventually, it's Own struggle. At least that's how I read the story and how I understand comments I've heard Jordan make.

 

After the re-sealing there is STILL going to be a lot to do... Sealing the DO away does not effect the things the DO has already done. Those things, those "people" have to be repaired, removed, defeated etc.... When the Fat Lady Sings...this opera ain't necessarily over.

[RAMb0211]

Well there is really one thing that makes me believe that something other than resealing will occur, and that is Rand's acquisition of the True Power. I'm beginning to think more and more that this is going to be the thing that tips the balance in Rand's favor. This just seems like one of those things that even on the grand scale of WOT something like this has never happened before.

[cleantoe]

I don't think the DO can or will be killed. What I do think is that he will be permanently sealed off, at least in this dimension/portal world.

 

Just because the DO is sealed away does NOT mean there won't be evil left. Look at Shadar Logoth, which is a type of evil totally unrelated to the DO. Not to mention just because the DO is gone doesn't mean that it ends mankind's petty struggle for power and greed. It is human nature. The absence of the DO isn't going to stop robbery, murder, rape...etc. My point is, the DO is not necessary for the continuation of "evil".

 

Padan Fain and his "evil" are unique to this Age, we know that for certain. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up himself as the new cuendillar seal to the bore, a cuendillar statue atop Mount Dhoom or whatever it's called that the DO chills in where he's drinking malt liquor and watching WWE reruns from 5 Ages ago.

[Agitel]

Well there is really one thing that makes me believe that something other than resealing will occur, and that is Rand's acquisition of the True Power. I'm beginning to think more and more that this is going to be the thing that tips the balance in Rand's favor. This just seems like one of those things that even on the grand scale of WOT something like this has never happened before.

 

I like this line of thinking because it's a bit outside the box. The changes don't repeat themselves exactly, they do change with every turn, and after many turns it's possible the age may not be the same. I've seen people mention that in the next the Breaking will happen similarly, the Bore won't be sealed and one of the Forsaken won't be sealed, but really, with regards to the Dark One, I don't know if we can assume that. Whose to say that Ishamael or another like him was loosed in the previous turning? The Dark One exists outside the Pattern, the Pattern does not affect him, so far as we know. That means when it comes to the Last Battle of an Age that has one, it may be dangerous to assume that things play out the same way. Sure, the events of that Age may be similar for the most part, but when the Dark One touches the world I think things can happen very differently. The previous Third Age may not have had an Ishamael. The previous Third Age may have united 'Randland' after the first 1000 years and stayed united until the Age ended. Why WAS Artur Hawkwing brought into the world? To correct something that should have already happened, such as a global alliance? Or only to die and cause destruction? I suppose this in part depends on Ishamael's part in the Trolloc Wars and Artur Hawkwing's death, which we can't be sure of. Ishamael also played a role in setting up the Black Ajah, so things may have been differently then. And if these events play out differently, maybe the last Third Age didn't even have a tainted Saidin.

 

Unless the Dark One is part of the Pattern, unless he is accounted for in it, I don't see how what I'm saying is false. Perhaps things could turn out differently. I don't know. Or maybe killing the Dark One is just impossible.

 

Oh, and I wonder... if Rand escaped into a vacuole, could he escape the Pattern's pull? Of course, he'd have to go against the Pattern enough to step into one . . .

[thewalrus777]

I don't quite understand how anyone thinks this will be anything But a re-sealing. This universe has a circular TIME. The Wheel of Time is Time itself. There are seven ages, each Age eventually comes around Again..

 

This is a story of ONE... 3rd Age. How IT dealt with IT's Battle with the Dark One. The FOURTH Age will have, eventually, it's Own struggle. At least that's how I read the story and how I understand comments I've heard Jordan make.

 

After the re-sealing there is STILL going to be a lot to do... Sealing the DO away does not effect the things the DO has already done. Those things, those "people" have to be repaired, removed, defeated etc.... When the Fat Lady Sings...this opera ain't necessarily over.

 

That was what i was trying to get at earlier. :D

[mossman87]

what if the seals are what is holding the bore open? Breaking them would allow the pattern itself to seal the dark one away.

 

They are.

[mossman87]

I don't think the DO can or will be killed. What I do think is that he will be permanently sealed off, at least in this dimension/portal world.

 

Just because the DO is sealed away does NOT mean there won't be evil left. Look at Shadar Logoth, which is a type of evil totally unrelated to the DO. Not to mention just because the DO is gone doesn't mean that it ends mankind's petty struggle for power and greed. It is human nature. The absence of the DO isn't going to stop robbery, murder, rape...etc. My point is, the DO is not necessary for the continuation of "evil".

 

Padan Fain and his "evil" are unique to this Age, we know that for certain. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up himself as the new cuendillar seal to the bore, a cuendillar statue atop Mount Dhoom or whatever it's called that the DO chills in where he's drinking malt liquor and watching WWE reruns from 5 Ages ago.

 

He cannot be permanently sealed away, the Pattern is what seals him from this world, and they will always be able to bore through it to reach him, remember how male gateways are made, I believe that's basically what the Bore is, a tear in the Pattern from a gateway.

 

Now put 2 and 2 together on why Moridin freaked the hell out hearing how Avi knows how to reverse a gateway..

 

We know the Creator made the DO as a balance for good vs evil, he's there for a reason, so there's no reason to think the Creator wants him gone.

 

The only thing we know that actually destroys the DO's power is Mordeth, and we have verbal confirmation that Fain is acting outside the Pattern's will, so I take from that Fain will be instrumental in either imprisoning the DO again (like Rand's wound), or outright destroy him.

[Agitel]

I don't think the DO can or will be killed. What I do think is that he will be permanently sealed off, at least in this dimension/portal world.

 

Just because the DO is sealed away does NOT mean there won't be evil left. Look at Shadar Logoth, which is a type of evil totally unrelated to the DO. Not to mention just because the DO is gone doesn't mean that it ends mankind's petty struggle for power and greed. It is human nature. The absence of the DO isn't going to stop robbery, murder, rape...etc. My point is, the DO is not necessary for the continuation of "evil".

 

Padan Fain and his "evil" are unique to this Age, we know that for certain. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up himself as the new cuendillar seal to the bore, a cuendillar statue atop Mount Dhoom or whatever it's called that the DO chills in where he's drinking malt liquor and watching WWE reruns from 5 Ages ago.

 

He cannot be permanently sealed away, the Pattern is what seals him from this world, and they will always be able to bore through it to reach him, remember how male gateways are made, I believe that's basically what the Bore is, a tear in the Pattern from a gateway.

 

Now put 2 and 2 together on why Moridin freaked the hell out hearing how Avi knows how to reverse a gateway..

 

We know the Creator made the DO as a balance for good vs evil, he's there for a reason, so there's no reason to think the Creator wants him gone.

 

The only thing we know that actually destroys the DO's power is Mordeth, and we have verbal confirmation that Fain is acting outside the Pattern's will, so I take from that Fain will be instrumental in either imprisoning the DO again (like Rand's wound), or outright destroy him.

 

Considering that Fain's been there from the beginning, I do hope he ties into this somehow.

[mossman87]

I don't think the DO can or will be killed. What I do think is that he will be permanently sealed off, at least in this dimension/portal world.

 

Just because the DO is sealed away does NOT mean there won't be evil left. Look at Shadar Logoth, which is a type of evil totally unrelated to the DO. Not to mention just because the DO is gone doesn't mean that it ends mankind's petty struggle for power and greed. It is human nature. The absence of the DO isn't going to stop robbery, murder, rape...etc. My point is, the DO is not necessary for the continuation of "evil".

 

Padan Fain and his "evil" are unique to this Age, we know that for certain. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up himself as the new cuendillar seal to the bore, a cuendillar statue atop Mount Dhoom or whatever it's called that the DO chills in where he's drinking malt liquor and watching WWE reruns from 5 Ages ago.

 

He cannot be permanently sealed away, the Pattern is what seals him from this world, and they will always be able to bore through it to reach him, remember how male gateways are made, I believe that's basically what the Bore is, a tear in the Pattern from a gateway.

 

Now put 2 and 2 together on why Moridin freaked the hell out hearing how Avi knows how to reverse a gateway..

 

We know the Creator made the DO as a balance for good vs evil, he's there for a reason, so there's no reason to think the Creator wants him gone.

 

The only thing we know that actually destroys the DO's power is Mordeth, and we have verbal confirmation that Fain is acting outside the Pattern's will, so I take from that Fain will be instrumental in either imprisoning the DO again (like Rand's wound), or outright destroy him.

 

Considering that Fain's been there from the beginning, I do hope he ties into this somehow.

 

Q:  Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ:  He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

[cleantoe]

I was reading another thread where it was mentioned that Birgitte is sad because Gaidal Cain was born and there would be a huge age difference. This is because she can't find him in TAR that she assumes he was born.

 

As we know, whatever dies in TAR dies permanently (like the wolves that Slayer keeps killing).

 

I wonder...what if the big unnoticed thing that we all glossed over is that Gaidal Cain wasn't reborn but actually killed off completely in TAR by Slayer, who is going around killing off all the heroes so that no one shows up when the Horn of Valere is blown.

[ed2funy]

Far fetched, but meh.....

it could be anything, and i just like reading what people write..

 

let others shred the theories here....

 

well, I might on some of them...

[Sharaman]

I was reading another thread where it was mentioned that Birgitte is sad because Gaidal Cain was born and there would be a huge age difference. This is because she can't find him in TAR that she assumes he was born.

 

As we know, whatever dies in TAR dies permanently (like the wolves that Slayer keeps killing).

 

I wonder...what if the big unnoticed thing that we all glossed over is that Gaidal Cain wasn't reborn but actually killed off completely in TAR by Slayer, who is going around killing off all the heroes so that no one shows up when the Horn of Valere is blown.

Interesting thought.

Doesn't seem to work. His Pov WH doesn't mention killing people in TAR, just wolves. Given how proud he is of his kills, he'd probably mention heroes he killed in TAR.

But maybe he's been in there beavering away.

 

[Teslan]

As Fel explains, either the bore is made whole again at the end of this age, or later.

 

At some point before, once again, Mierin drills the bore it must be made whole.  Destroying the dark one would require the destruction of the wheel, which is the DO's own plan. Seems unlikely.

 

I think the nature of the book means the end result will be sealing the DO away as if the bore had never been. No idea how.

 

[DemandredFO]

If Fain is unique could it be that Tarmon Gaidon Really Is the last battle.  I mean the last good vs. pure evil battle.  We know via Nicola and others that battles will abound but with Fain being unique and all.

[Terez]

I was reading another thread where it was mentioned that Birgitte is sad because Gaidal Cain was born and there would be a huge age difference. This is because she can't find him in TAR that she assumes he was born.

 

As we know, whatever dies in TAR dies permanently (like the wolves that Slayer keeps killing).

 

I wonder...what if the big unnoticed thing that we all glossed over is that Gaidal Cain wasn't reborn but actually killed off completely in TAR by Slayer, who is going around killing off all the heroes so that no one shows up when the Horn of Valere is blown.

It's doubtful, seeing as how Min saw several lives' worth of viewings for Birgitte, including her being tied to a much-younger man.  Gaidal has always been older before, but Moghedien changed that.

[Knightfall]

Long time lurker, across -several- WoT forum sites through the years, first time poster to any of them. 

 

Forgive me if this is in the wrong place, but at the moment I can't sift through all the pages to find -exactly- where this should go, but I feel it fits at least a little bit here.

 

That ter'angreal that Aviendha finds that's related to growing things (but not plants, as I believe a Q&A with BS has shown)... at first I thought maybe it meant that Chora trees weren't really plants... until I just happened upon a thought while glancing at a picture of Someshta in the WoT sourcebook. Any thoughts on it growing Green Men, or Nym?  Throw that in with the other ter'angreal that works with music, maybe some Tinkers, Rand, and Perrin for a good old fashioned world healing musical revival feat. Lil Green Men?

[pacificflows]

Olver is Gaidal Cain?

[GrandpaG]

Loial sang to the tree that grew from the Green Man's seed...we haven't seen the last of him.  Once the Tinkers and "so called Aiel" enter the glass columns together, they'll see what Rand saw and know how to sing with the Ogier as the Green Man dances to produce "super" crops.

 

To drift slightly back toward topic, check this out:

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,35615.msg1409842.html#msg1409842

 

It might not be THE answer, but it could be relevant.

 

Love,

Gramps

[Terez]

Long time lurker, across -several- WoT forum sites through the years, first time poster to any of them. 

 

Forgive me if this is in the wrong place, but at the moment I can't sift through all the pages to find -exactly- where this should go, but I feel it fits at least a little bit here.

 

That ter'angreal that Aviendha finds that's related to growing things (but not plants, as I believe a Q&A with BS has shown)... at first I thought maybe it meant that Chora trees weren't really plants... until I just happened upon a thought while glancing at a picture of Someshta in the WoT sourcebook. Any thoughts on it growing Green Men, or Nym?  Throw that in with the other ter'angreal that works with music, maybe some Tinkers, Rand, and Perrin for a good old fashioned world healing musical revival feat. Lil Green Men?

The general consensus on this ter'angreal is that it is a Talisman of Growing - we assume that there were at one time at least two of them, and that the Ogier only have one left.  The Breaking was a long time ago, even for Ogier.  Anyway, Aviendha says it is for growing holes (Waygates), and that you have to sing a song to activate it, so it makes sense.  Perhaps a Treesinger is required to make one work.

 

TITLE - Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER: 15 - A Different Skill

 

Elayne began to think that Aviendha was giving up, offering the same answer every time in hopes that she would stop asking, but then she realized that her sister’s voice was becoming more confident rather than less, that the protests that she was only guessing had dwindled. And her “guesses” were growing in detail. A bent, featureless rod of dull black, as wide as her wrist-it seemed metal, yet one end accommodated itself to any hand that gripped it-made her think of cutting, either metal or stone if they were not too thick. Nothing that could catch fire, though. The apparently glass figure of a man, a foot tall, with his hand raised as if to signal stop, would chase away vermin, which would certainly have been useful, given Caemlyn’s plague of rats and flies. A stone carving the size of her hand, all deep blue curves-it felt like stone, at least, though somehow it did not really look carved- was for growing something. Not plants. It made her think of holes, only they were not exactly holes. And she did not believe anyone had to channel to make it work. Only sing the right song! Some ter’angreal did not require channeling, but really! Singing?

 

TITLE - The Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 43 - Decisions and Apparitions

 

"When the last Aes Sedai left the stedding, they gave to the Elders a key, a talisman, that could be used for growing more. They are a living thing in some fashion, the Ways and the Waygates. I do not understand it; no Ogier ever has, and even the Aes Sedai have forgotten, I am told. Over the years the Exile ended for us. As those Ogier who had been gifted by the Aes Sedai found a stedding where Ogier had returned from the Long Wandering, they grew a Way to it. With the stonework we learned during the Exile, we built cities for men, and planted the groves to comfort the Ogier who did the building, so the Longing would not overcome them. To those groves Ways were grown. There was a grove, and a Waygate, at Mafal Dadaranell, but that city was razed during the Trolloc Wars, no stone left standing on another, and the grove was chopped down and burned for Trolloc fires." He left no doubt which had been the greater crime.

[lordofsoup]

i think there should be a law against people mentioning Gaidal Cain and Olver in the same sentence. 

[thewalrus777]

i think there should be a law against people mentioning Gaidal Cain and Olver in the same sentence. 

 

i second that...

[Terez]

I posted an idea on the 'detail' at Theoryland.

[Vulgir]

I posted an idea on the 'detail' at Theoryland.

 

Very well thought out. Very well stated and good evidence.

 

The only problems i see are these

 

1. She already marriend him, Matt is prince of the ravens. might have a hard time making him property.

2. It could have been just a tool to show how she might not accept his preposal, while giving more incite into Tuon. Also it sounds alot like flirting, you know poke fun at the person you like.

3. Whats the point? So Tuon makes him a da'covle what is the point of it? And how is the magnitude similar to the Mistborn thing? You have stated only half a theory, its like giving us directions without telling us where we will wind up.