The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[rubbernilly]

I'm sure Eclipse will be happy to know someone is still preaching his Mat pawn theory though.

 

Not sure who Eclipse is, but I probably predate him, at least on this board. Not that I came up with the theory (not first, anyway). I'm sure someone had this same idea before it occured to me.

A Theorylander, and I doubt you predate him.  I know you from Theoryland archives, but I'm pretty sure Eclipse was there before you.  Here's his Mat Pawn theory.  I can't find the original 'Lanfear was enhanced' theory.   :(

 

 

 

I said I probably predate him here. No way to show it now, but I know that I had one of the earliest registration dates on this forum... back before there was loss and/or system change upgrade that required re-registration.

[shinerfan]

Alright its late and I've only read about half of this thread but I haven't seen these two ideas mentioned. 1)I think its in Rhuidean that the "standing flows" are mentioned? They allowed a non-channeller to use the OP and they no longer exist. But I don't think they've been mentioned since. 2)Min saw a "darkness" around Bashere. There was also a mysterious exchange, something like "but tell him there'll be one more than we discussed". That comment came in a later book, KoD, maybe, and may have been about the meeting with the Seanchan, but when did Min see the darkness around him? Really not very confident in either of these ideas, just throwing something out there.

[Auld Manriva]

I thought the knife ter'angreal's purpose was to hide someone from the DO?  Am I misremembering this?  I kinda think if it had to be a particular bronze knife to get into ToG Birgitte would have said so.

 

I believe you're correct. It does indeed hide one from ol'whatsizname. BUT seein' as how it's bronze (not iron) and seein' as how one apparently need only do a couple foxy/snakey scribbles and a tic-tac-toe society secret handshake on the tower wall to gain entry, maybe it's something that'll come in handy in dealing with them semi-human beasties.

 

And with someone earlier mentioning they may be somehow "Shadowy" their own selves. Maybe it'll hideth whothoever holdeth it from the Finns? Or maybe make them "sparkle in sunlight" like Abercrombie & Fitch Campy Vamps! yeah... that's the ticket ;D

[aunt_pol]

K, just I had really thought someone somewhere had said something (substantiated) about a funny knife, and Avi, and the ToG.

Also, would be easy to get matches in by the Finns as matches are not technically fire, and i believe usual equipment in Randland is a tinderbox.

 

Not liking this Fain/Gollum parallel carry on. Would really prefer to see him meeting a singularly sticky end.

 

[shinerfan]

This has been mentioned in a few theories but it hasn't really gotten the attention it deserves (that I've seen). In tDR Verin gives Eg the list of ter' stolen by the BA and it includes a series of  dice joined together that alter chance in some way. This is never mentioned again but immediately after Mat's healing, (where Verin was present), Mat's luck begins to manifest itself. Granted, it happens in book 3 but the dice in Mat's head start in book 4. I don't know if this has anything to do with the big mystery but I would bet the house those dice were involved in Mat's healing and are responsible for his luck. If Verin or other BAs were involved that would fit the comment that Mat's luck is very similar to the DO's luck.

[Jareth Bixx]

...Rand, this immediate difference was lacking.  Maybe he was just so ticked off at being bonded against his will that he didn't notice it, but this contrast does stand out in my mind.

The fact that he was bonded against his will always stood out to me. Perhaps this is the reason the benefits of the Warder bond are not shared for him? Saidar requires a woman to surrender herself to it to use it, where as Saidin is described as a battle for control and Rand is certainly not surrendering to the bond by being pulled into it unwillingly. Just a thought.

[edub]

Ok I've read through most of the posts and one thing I havent noticed being spoken about is when Rand was in the time machine I don't have my books with me but i'll try to remember it, in one of his ancestors lives he went to the aies sedai and the nym was there and they gave him a responsibility to look after the stuff for the last battle. I have read somewhere that RJ said the eye of the world was not used properly and that it was a source of pure one power so if it was not connected to the rest of the one power could it not have been used as the source to hold the dark one in place without tainting saidin and saidar. So maybe they have to make a new one. This could qualify as something overlooked I havent heard much about this.

[yoniy0]

This has been mentioned in a few theories but it hasn't really gotten the attention it deserves (that I've seen). In tDR Verin gives Eg the list of ter' stolen by the BA and it includes a series of  dice joined together that alter chance in some way. This is never mentioned again but immediately after Mat's healing, (where Verin was present), Mat's luck begins to manifest itself. Granted, it happens in book 3 but the dice in Mat's head start in book 4. I don't know if this has anything to do with the big mystery but I would bet the house those dice were involved in Mat's healing and are responsible for his luck. If Verin or other BAs were involved that would fit the comment that Mat's luck is very similar to the DO's luck.

 

Well, here's the full quote of that RJ remark you mentioned:

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Question: In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal [only ter'angreal, actually - Terez] out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

 

It's not definite, but it seems to me that RJ said more than it wasn't Lanfear who did it. I believe he dismissed the weird dice Ter'angreal as the cause of that luck Mat's been having.

[The Desert Pea]

Something just popped into my mind, it's probably wrong, but...

 

How about the Aiel chief's chair? It's always mentioned in passing throughout the series that Aiel never sit in chairs, except for the special occasions when a clan's chief sits in his chair. I don't see how it could be important but you never know

[yoniy0]

Something just popped into my mind, it's probably wrong, but...

 

How about the Aiel chief's chair? It's always mentioned in passing throughout the series that Aiel never sit in chairs, except for the special occasions when a clan's chief sits in his chair. I don't see how it could be important but you never know

 

I don't think so. BS said it's something that should have been picked up (it can't be something that will play an important roll, which we have no way of foreseeing). The only way that could happen is if we actually saw an Aiel sitting in a chair and missed it, and I don't think that's possible.

[The Desert Pea]

Something just popped into my mind, it's probably wrong, but...

 

How about the Aiel chief's chair? It's always mentioned in passing throughout the series that Aiel never sit in chairs, except for the special occasions when a clan's chief sits in his chair. I don't see how it could be important but you never know

 

I don't think so. BS said it's something that should have been picked up (it can't be something that will play an important roll, which we have no way of foreseeing). The only way that could happen is if we actually saw an Aiel sitting in a chair and missed it, and I don't think that's possible.

 

I was thinking more of the actual chair itself, that one of the chairs could end up being a big deal. It's probably not the unnoticed thing though

[Aagaard]

I know this might have been discussed earlier, but I thought that book 4-6 is mostly about Rands relations with the Aiel. We know a lot of their history but haven't really seen so much that links with this yet.

As for the tinkers' song book tGS ends with Rand remembering all of his past lives, which means that he now know the song. In book 4 The Ter'Angreal in Rhuidean showed him his ancestors, not paast lives, but having all of lews therins memories ought to give him the song.

TGS seemed to built up both the Aiel and the Tinkers again.

 

Other things in book 4:

- Luca the Aiel/Valan Luca connection? RJ often used small things as pecularities, more than signs. In the same regard we get the first POV from Eagenin (Senchean), who thinks about the minor lady she shipped away for the blood called Leilwhin, which is the name she gets much later, in Valan Lucas show. But I think this is only pecularities.

- we hear of the tower of the ravens for the first time?

- we hear of a TINKER taking up a sword for the first time. Not a spear, but a sword because it is a weapon for killing and only that, as we hear the first of what became the Aiel of today say inside the Rhuidean Ter'angreal.

[Aleron688]

i dont think rand has all his past lives' memories.  that would make him too much SuperRand, with the ability to do anything.  he would instantly know the best way to seal the DO, or maybe even defeat him.  SO rand just "knowing" the song (which we dont know if it even exists, as it might be something the tinkers just want to believe in) is far fetched at best

[analyticalkeys]

i dont think rand has all his past lives' memories.  that would make him too much SuperRand, with the ability to do anything.  he would instantly know the best way to seal the DO, or maybe even defeat him.  SO rand just "knowing" the song (which we dont know if it even exists, as it might be something the tinkers just want to believe in) is far fetched at best

 

The song is the one they sing with the Ogier and Nym.. they're never going to discover the song unless the Nym are brought back.

[lillcheese]

Along the lines of "odd things that probably aren't THE thing":  

 

In the Seed Singing scene, we see a soldier and he's got the Seanchan insect helmet on.  I had thought that was a quirk of the Seanchan continent, but apparently it was on the mainland pre-Breaking.

 

I wonder if in Seanchan they still know the song.

[Firebird]

1:Please oh pretty please leave Valan Luca as the gobshite he so clearly is.

Hi Aunt Pol, I'm with you 1000% on this one! I can't help but feel the people who believe that he is more than a big buffoon are seriously in need of some fresh air.

2:Isn't a major Rand/Mat/Perrin/Supergirls (basically everyone good)Council of War way way overdue at this point? Not a one of them has any more than a twisted notion of what each other is doing. Presumably there is potential in the Ta'veren internal telly thing for being two way as well as just observation, which would tighten that relationship nicely, and maybe there's enough water under the bridge now for them all to realise their close mouthedness/war of sexes is really hindering things.

I think this should have happened about 3 or 4 books back. Sometimes I want to knock a few heads together to make them see sense (starting with Egwene!) I think when Moiraine comes back, she'll be able to lead the way and smooth the ruffled feathers and big egos. When you "died" killing a Forsaken in glorious battle, you automatically deserve admiration. Then, when it turns out that you didn't even die, no-one will be able to deny you. Everyone will be in serious awe.

[aunt_pol]

Cheers Firebird.

I think the only reason Valan Luca popped up after Nynaeve and Elayne finished with him is that Mat 'tugged'what he needed to him. Verin knew enough to realise & understand why she was being stuck tothe spot, Luca prob wouldn't think on coincidences at all.

Edub - well spotted, such a bummer if that's what it was supposed to be kept for!

On a related topic, there's no point going on about the recession of the Blight, IMO, sure that happened because of Rand's derring-do in Tarwin's Gap, and also as a result of Someshta's sacrifice.

[zilcho]

In the Seed Singing scene, we see a soldier and he's got the Seanchan insect helmet on.  I had thought that was a quirk of the Seanchan continent, but apparently it was on the mainland pre-Breaking.

 

That seems like exactly the kind of thing it might be, a hint of that they might know the song and then it's being mentioned a bit here, a bit there every know and then that the Senchan uses this kind of helmets. The mentioning of the song is also something which has been mentioned early on in the books and has surfaced once in a while I believe. Further during the entire gathering storm there have been talks of how hard it's for plants to grow, if the song would ever be needed it's now. After my reread in a few months I'll certainly take note of this.

 

When a thread sprung up where he different ideas can be gathered and voted upon this will get my vote at the moment.

 

[IoCaster]

A few thoughts...

 

This is something that BS likely missed on his reads. It's on his mind now and since he's working on ToM it's a reasonable assumption to make that it will be revealed in the next book. The next book should have the Moiraine rescue mission as a big event. It should also have a BT showdown, but Taim, Logain and the BT has been talked about exhaustively. So I'm inclined to think that tBUT relates to one of the many mysteries involving the 'finns.

 

I don't have the books handy, but going by the http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/index.html in TSR we have Rand, Mat and Mo visiting the 'finns in Tear. Mat visits them in Rhuidean.

 

In tFoH Mo and Psycho fall through the doorway into Finnland. Lot's of questions left unanswered about what happened to them.

 

In LoC Mat and Olver are playing Snakes and Foxes. I don't recall if this is the first time the game is shown in the series to that point. What happens next is interesting though. Rand shows up with Avi and tells Mat to go to Salidar and escort Elayne to Caemlyn. Oh, by the way Mat here's a letter for Thom.

 

I'm thinking that the unnoticed mystery involves the 'finns somehow. Unfortunately, there are so many unanswered questions involving the 'finns that it's hard to know where to begin.

[Jong]

One thing that begins in books 4-6 and continues through the current books is the changes to the culture of the Aiel.

 

Another thing is the reconstitution of Manethren.

 

Another thing is immigration into the two rivers district.  

 

Now that Elayne's throne is secure she may attempt to reclaim the two rivers and bring it back into Andor.

[Ashenn]

I've been lurking for a very long time.  Finally got around to joining in.

 

----------------------

I'm not sure if this is the thing.

However, one thing that seems to have gone unmentioned is Rand's consequences of entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh.

 

When Rand first enters Tel'aran'rhiod chasing Rhavin, during the first moments he's there Lews Therin "tries" to take over.  Rand almost looses himself as he nearly morphs into Lews Therin.  During the remainder of the pursuit Rhavin throws a polymorph style trick at Rand, but the first one ...was different.  The first one was more of a struggle from within. (FoH Page 936)

 

It's at this point Rand notices he doesn't hear Lews Therin's voice.  Rand thought it started when he used balefire, but really it seems since he entered Tel'aran'rhiod. (FoH 935)  Then in tGS, we see either Tel'aran'rhiod or something like it where Lews Therin is gone once again as Rand chats with Elan Morin(Moridin).

 

It also seems at that point, Rand goes from hearing and accessing Lews Therin's memories to actually fighting with him for control.  As if Lews Therin got awakened or confused.

 

We also know that Tel'aran'rhiod is the place where the souls await to return.  What if the thing feared by the wise ones is something to do with the interaction in Tel'aran'rhiod on your "lives"

 

Egwene, being a dreamer, might have been afforded some sort of protection through her greater than normal control of Tel'aran'rhiod during her trip to Salidar. 

This isn't the best theory because it starts after book 4.  Unless there was something missed in book 4.

[Dragons Fang]

Hey Guys!

 

I've been going through the re-read by Leigh Butler and in the Chapter 17 of Book 4 (where Elaida stages the coup) Siuan mentions reports of sisters vanishing in Caemlyn and Illian, both cities being run by Forsaken.

 

Is it not possible that these sisters are either being captured or turned by the 13-13 trick?

[1eejit]

Could it be something to do with Graendal hanging out in an inn Mat was visiting?

Beginning of LoC:

A handful of others dotted the members of the Band. Here a lean' date=' fork-bearded Kandori with a moonstone the size of his thumbnail in one earlobe and silver chains across the chest of his red coat, there [b']a copper-skinned Domani woman, though wearing a modest blue dress, with quick eyes and gemmed rings on all her fingers[/b], elsewhere a Taraboner in a conical flat-topped blue cap, thick mustache hidden behind a transparent veil.

[Graendal's] thin blue Domani gown clung and more than hinted. As usual she had a ring with different stones on every finger' date=' four or five gem-encrusted bracelets on each wrist, and a wide collar of huge sapphires snugged around [b']the gown’s high neck.[/b]

Given that these are in two consecutive chapters I think it's almost certainly her. I also doubt that a red herring would be quite so well hidden.

(Note: 'modest' is very subjective, and that's Mat's PoV - and it is high-necked at least)

 

 

This was noticed a long time ago on Wotmania but is almost never discussed, making it a good contender for BS not having read it. Mat had no Aes Sedai with him at the time, so although he had the Foxhead Medallion his companions were all vulnerable to whatever Graendal might want to do to them.

Since Olver also appears in this chapter another idea is that he is working for her somehow, possibly subconsciously (like those who attended the Darkfriend Tea Party).

She may also be able to identify Mat's dreams due to this encounter, and has been able to spy on him further that way.

[Oneiricer]

Guys, i think I have an answer.

I don't have books 4 to 6, so hopefully someone can check this out.

From memory, books 4 - 6 have lolial's viewpoint on the ogier. His last development was he stood up at the council?

 

given that the council takes a long time to decide things, and im guessing its probably been a year or two since book six, they could have made the decision to follow rand into battle and tarmon gaidon?

 

What do you guys think? I dont think anyone has commented on ogier very recently.

 

Im very confident myself that the ogier have to be re-engaged piror to tarmon gaidon and the next book would be the logical place to put it.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

This was noticed a long time ago on Wotmania but is almost never discussed, making it a good contender for BS not having read it. Mat had no Aes Sedai with him at the time, so although he had the Foxhead Medallion his companions were all vulnerable to whatever Graendal might want to do to them.

Since Olver also appears in this chapter another idea is that he is working for her somehow, possibly subconsciously (like those who attended the Darkfriend Tea Party).

She may also be able to identify Mat's dreams due to this encounter, and has been able to spy on him further that way.

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 7 Question: Since the first few books, Rand's and Perrin's dreams have been protected. Rand can weave a ward around his dreams. Perrin being a Wolfbrother has protected his dreams. How have Mat's dreams been protected since the first half of the series?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A side effect of his foxhead medallion, though he doesn't know it. This was not part of the intended purpose of making the medallion; it's a true side effect.