The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[analyticalkeys]

I suppose yes, the evidence is there that he has this enhanced strength and endurance.  I'm just saying, that it's never really pointed out in the book.  After Bryne is bonded by Suian in TGS, he immediately comments about how much stronger and better he's feeling, that he could take on ten men at once, or something like that.  When Rand was bonded, from his point of view, nothing like that was ever really pointed out, all he really notices is that he can feel Alanna's presence.

 

With Bryne, there was an immediate, noticable difference, but with Rand, this immediate difference was lacking.  Maybe he was just so ticked off at being bonded against his will that he didn't notice it, but this contrast does stand out in my mind.

 

Could just be the difference in writing style between RJ and BS.

 

 

This has been happening since Rand was bonded back in... was it FoH?

[dacliff]

My theories, at least that I haven't seen while skimming the posts:

 

Rand kneeling at the Chrystal Thrown.  This is most likely in my mind considering the book is titled after a location in the Seanchan continent.  It's been brought up around the 4-6 timeframe, IIRC, and has certainly been mentioned since then.

 

Tinker/Ogier/Treeman/Aiel related.  This could be something having to do with the song.  This is unlikely in my mind.  But I think Avi's trip through the crystals will shed even more light on this.

 

The Ways Ter'angreal.  This thing is sitting on a table in the Caemlyn palace and the two people who know about it have never traveled the Ways and likely don't know about them.  The path to finding this thing was started with T'A'R leading Nyn and Elayne to the Bowl/cache of *angreals.  The Ways have certainly be hinted at several times throughout the series with Rand trying to get them locked and Trollocs are still managing to get through the ones not locked.  If they can't go through Gateways, they can still use some of the Ways.  With everyone focussing on the border with the blight, it could get really ugly if Trollocs start hitting your flank/rear out of a Waygate.

 

And finally, what is the relationship between Thom and Moraine?  With her rescue, this might play out a bit more.

[Thorn]

I suppose yes, the evidence is there that he has this enhanced strength and endurance.  I'm just saying, that it's never really pointed out in the book.  After Bryne is bonded by Suian in TGS, he immediately comments about how much stronger and better he's feeling, that he could take on ten men at once, or something like that.  When Rand was bonded, from his point of view, nothing like that was ever really pointed out, all he really notices is that he can feel Alanna's presence.

 

With Bryne, there was an immediate, noticable difference, but with Rand, this immediate difference was lacking.  Maybe he was just so ticked off at being bonded against his will that he didn't notice it, but this contrast does stand out in my mind.

 

Keep in mind, Bryne's a heck of a lot older than Rand. A sixty year old many suddenly feeling as healthy as a twenty year old is something he's going to think about; a twenty year old suddenly feeling as healthy as a twenty year old isn't worth commenting on.

[dacliff]

I suppose yes, the evidence is there that he has this enhanced strength and endurance.  I'm just saying, that it's never really pointed out in the book.  After Bryne is bonded by Suian in TGS, he immediately comments about how much stronger and better he's feeling, that he could take on ten men at once, or something like that.  When Rand was bonded, from his point of view, nothing like that was ever really pointed out, all he really notices is that he can feel Alanna's presence.

 

With Bryne, there was an immediate, noticable difference, but with Rand, this immediate difference was lacking.  Maybe he was just so ticked off at being bonded against his will that he didn't notice it, but this contrast does stand out in my mind.

 

Could just be the difference in writing style between RJ and BS.

 

This has been happening since Rand was bonded back in... was it FoH?

 

Has there been any mention of how the Warder Bond affects a man who can channel?  I can't recall any other Asha'man being granted superior strength/endurance/healing capabilities.

[bushleague]

I dont know about that, wasnt one of the aids of the warder bond being able to detect  shadow spawn?, yet in Crossroads of Twighlight theres a few thousand right outside and he doesn't really notice them until he sees them, thats always bothered me, but the strength and endurance is definatly there.

 

I assume you mean Knife of Dreams, and the warder bond only senses Shadowspawn within a mile (I think Lan or Moiraine tells us this in the EoTW).  The trollocs were on the treeline which was a good distance away from the manor and as soon as they reach that treeline, Rand and others including Cadsuane sense something wrong.  When they look at the window they see shadowspawn.  Now back to the discussion

[Eleint]

Also note that channelers detect Shadowspawn -anyway-, so Rand can do that even without the warder bond.

[mkgilson]

I searched through this post and did not see this theory I have had since my first read-through at about the time CoS came out (started in books 4-6).  I have not posted it anywhere as of yet because I did not see anything like it and I did not want to spoil any big plot points for people if I am right.  I’m about 65% confident I have it right, so read at your own risk….

On a re-read of EotW, I am amazed at how intricately foreshadowing is woven into the story.  Inconsequential things that RJ describes in detail become so clear after the secrets are known.  They provide a “how did I miss that” moment.  Books 4-6 begin the much larger story arc.  When Brandon most recently re-read the series, he was already in possession of the ending.  I believe he is referring to a few “How did I miss that” moments where the ending of the series is foreshadowed in intricate detail.

Some facts/assumptions:  1)  The wheel of time turns….and even legends are long forgotten….  So the ending cannot be the same as the Age of Legends (because it is not long forgotten).  Rand’s Age must do something other than seal the bore.  2)  Mordeth is an evil not like the DO.  Therefore, the DO cannot be the embodiment of all evil.  i.e.  He is not the anti-creator.  3)  The DO is afraid of Fain (who has merged the power and evil of the DO and Mordeth).  4)  A lot of this appears in books 4-6.

So now the theory part – 1)  The DO is not immortal.  Like the forsaken, he was a human and became immortal when trapped in stasis.  He is now afraid of Fain because Fain has powers that can kill him.  2)  The DO can wield the True Power, which makes him unique, and dangerous.  3) What does the DO want? – To unravel the Pattern so he can die.  4)  Who else do we know in Randland who can wield the True Power and wants to unravel the Pattern?  I’ll give you three:  Ishy, Fain (maybe), and Rand/LTT.  5)  So my original theory all those years ago was :  The current DO is killed, and we find out that he is a previous Dragon and Fain becomes the “DO” for the next Age.  This theory explains a lot of stuff:

“His blood upon the rocks of Shayol Guhl”    To be the “Dragon” means you can channel the True Power?  Could the True Power be the power of the real DO and cause the Dragon to go crazy and want to unravel the pattern?  Is this similar to the Additive and Subtractive magic in “Sword of Truth”?  TS works by weaving a pattern, TP works by unraveling it? The pattern is most unraveled around Rand.  Similar to Rand using the TS without knowing it, has he been using the TP?  He had a similar experience using the TS at TEotW as he did with the collar.  The Callandor prophecy can be tied into this somehow (3 dragons become one, Three guys in Rand’s head (ishy, LTT, Rand),  as can Cadsuane and the “will help you die” prophecy.  The title “A Memory of Light” may refer to the previous dragon remembering something or Rand remembering the previous dragon as his mind further unravels.  When reading TGS, my theory became a lot more filled in, a lot of parts fit together.  I am going to re-read the series with this theory in mind and see how it fits.  Any thoughts?

 

[Davian93]

Terez, Davian, play nice.

 

Sorry...What'd I do?

 

Terez disagreed with someone forcefully, and you backed it up with a 'yeah, pwned' comment. Have your opinions, be confident in them--but don't dismiss or denegrate your opponants.

 

Fair enough.

[Davian93]

I suppose yes, the evidence is there that he has this enhanced strength and endurance.  I'm just saying, that it's never really pointed out in the book.  After Bryne is bonded by Suian in TGS, he immediately comments about how much stronger and better he's feeling, that he could take on ten men at once, or something like that.  When Rand was bonded, from his point of view, nothing like that was ever really pointed out, all he really notices is that he can feel Alanna's presence.

 

With Bryne, there was an immediate, noticable difference, but with Rand, this immediate difference was lacking.  Maybe he was just so ticked off at being bonded against his will that he didn't notice it, but this contrast does stand out in my mind.

 

Could just be the difference in writing style between RJ and BS.

 

 

This has been happening since Rand was bonded back in... was it FoH?

 

Rand was bonded in LoC...but the Bryne scene was written by BS whereas Rand's post bonding scenes are all strictly RJ.  At this point I doubt Rand would even notice the enhanced strength/endurance.

 

There's also the difference in their ages that another poster mentioned.

[Vulgir]

I searched through this post and did not see this theory I have had since my first read-through at about the time CoS came out (started in books 4-6).  I have not posted it anywhere as of yet because I did not see anything like it and I did not want to spoil any big plot points for people if I am right.  I’m about 65% confident I have it right, so read at your own risk….

On a re-read of EotW, I am amazed at how intricately foreshadowing is woven into the story.  Inconsequential things that RJ describes in detail become so clear after the secrets are known.  They provide a “how did I miss that” moment.  Books 4-6 begin the much larger story arc.  When Brandon most recently re-read the series, he was already in possession of the ending.  I believe he is referring to a few “How did I miss that” moments where the ending of the series is foreshadowed in intricate detail.

Some facts/assumptions:  1)  The wheel of time turns….and even legends are long forgotten….  So the ending cannot be the same as the Age of Legends (because it is not long forgotten).   Rand’s Age must do something other than seal the bore.   2)  Mordeth is an evil not like the DO.  Therefore, the DO cannot be the embodiment of all evil.  i.e.  He is not the anti-creator.  3)  The DO is afraid of Fain (who has merged the power and evil of the DO and Mordeth).  4)  A lot of this appears in books 4-6.

So now the theory part – 1)  The DO is not immortal.  Like the forsaken, he was a human and became immortal when trapped in stasis.  He is now afraid of Fain because Fain has powers that can kill him.  2)  The DO can wield the True Power, which makes him unique, and dangerous.  3) What does the DO want? – To unravel the Pattern so he can die.  4)  Who else do we know in Randland who can wield the True Power and wants to unravel the Pattern?  I’ll give you three:  Ishy, Fain (maybe), and Rand/LTT.  5)  So my original theory all those years ago was :  The current DO is killed, and we find out that he is a previous Dragon and Fain becomes the “DO” for the next Age.  This theory explains a lot of stuff:

“His blood upon the rocks of Shayol Guhl”    To be the “Dragon” means you can channel the True Power?  Could the True Power be the power of the real DO and cause the Dragon to go crazy and want to unravel the pattern?  Is this similar to the Additive and Subtractive magic in “Sword of Truth”?  TS works by weaving a pattern, TP works by unraveling it? The pattern is most unraveled around Rand.  Similar to Rand using the TS without knowing it, has he been using the TP?  He had a similar experience using the TS at TEotW as he did with the collar.   The Callandor prophecy can be tied into this somehow (3 dragons become one, Three guys in Rand’s head (ishy, LTT, Rand),  as can Cadsuane and the “will help you die” prophecy.  The title “A Memory of Light” may refer to the previous dragon remembering something or Rand remembering the previous dragon as his mind further unravels.   When reading TGS, my theory became a lot more filled in, a lot of parts fit together.  I am going to re-read the series with this theory in mind and see how it fits.  Any thoughts?

 

 

1.The Dark one was sealed in his prison at the moment of creation, there hasnt been more than 1 DO only one since the moment the world was created, its never been mentioned brought up or even alluded to in the books.

 

--if Fain is different than the DO how will be be the new DO? Wouldnt Ishy be a better choice?

 

2.the will help you die refferes to the former damane Alivia

3. I think Rand's mind has stopped unraviling as of the Veins of Gold chapter in TGS, he will no longer hear Lews Therin in his head, and the Taint has stopped its neggative effect.

 

I dont see much validity in this

[GrandpaG]

Rhuidean?

 

 

 

::)

Nope.

 

Not enough mention in 4,5,and 6.

 

I'm sticking with the impact that a few thousand Aiel darkfriends could have at TG.

[mkgilson]

 

1.The Dark one was sealed in his prison at the moment of creation, there hasnt been more than 1 DO only one since the moment the world was created, its never been mentioned brought up or even alluded to in the books.

 

--if Fain is different than the DO how will be be the new DO? Wouldnt Ishy be a better choice?

 

2.the will help you die refferes to the former damane Alivia

3. I think Rand's mind has stopped unraviling as of the Veins of Gold chapter in TGS, he will no longer hear Lews Therin in his head, and the Taint has stopped its neggative effect.

 

I dont see much validity in this

 

1)  How soon we forget.  In the first 3 books, Baalzamon was thought to be the "Dark One".  Same here, the person sealed in this prison is not the real DO, everyone just thinks he is.

2)  Thanks, I could not think of her name off the top of my head.  But what is unanswered is how or why does she have to help him die?  I can think of numerous ties into this theory.  As with Cadsuane "teaching him something" or whatever she has to do.

3)  I agree, I'm interested in seeing how that plays out in the beginning (or end) of ToM.  

[wumpus]

What about why the warder bond is so funky when used on channelers?

 

e.g. female bonding male cannot compel him to obey, but male bonding female can compel. Plus the weirdness with Elayne feeling her warder more closely and vice versa.

[Ashaman Kovan]

RJ stated that saidar would've been tainted if it was used too.

 

I don't think that was ever said. I thought he'd left it up in the air with an ambiguous answer to the effect of "There's no way to know". You have a quote?

 

He said it in the Budapest interview in 2003.;)

 

 

Edited for accuracy's sake.

 

Again, do you have a quote?

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Again, do you have a quote?

 

Q:  Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ:  Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at  Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals.  In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this.  As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Q:  Yes, yes.

RJ:  Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go.  And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it.  The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.  And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint.  But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

 

[yoniy0]

Terez, Davian, play nice.

 

Sorry...What'd I do?

 

 

On the sealing and Callandor: I tend to think that Min and Caddy are mistaken in the "3 become 1 with the blade of light" prophecy.  I think the "3 become 1" is more a reference to the 3 ta'veren, not a women led circle using Callandor.  There have been so many references to the 3 ta'veren being critical to the victory of the Light (from both the Light and Shadow prophecies) that it just seems that would be the case.

 

I think the three ta'veren will be critical, but not in that way.. I think having three ta'veren at the Bore will alter chance enough to give Rand a shot at winning or something like that.

 

Though it might be worth mentioning that in the Karaethon Cycle, the fact that it is said in the same sentence ("He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one") doesn't necessarily mean that the two are connected from a chronological point of view. For example: "The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice, and he shall wear a crown of swords" (the conquest of Illian wasn't all that bloody, IIRC).

[Davian93]

Thanks Bob...Saved me the trouble of digging it up.

[yoniy0]

 

Again, do you have a quote?

 

Q:  Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ:  Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at  Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals.  In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this.  As I pointed out in somethingI wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghulthere was a great division at the time I dont know if all of you have read itor have none of you read it?

Q:  Yes, yes.

RJ:  Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the.and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go.  And in the end, what resulted was the so-called Fatal Covenant [it was actually the Fateful Concord Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therins plan, that they would not support it.  The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if thered been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.  And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint.  But thats why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark Ones prison.

 

 

Though I saw in the thread of Q&A in this forum that at one point or another he refined his answer - it was something in the specific circumstances that allowed the DO to taint Saidin. Perhaps it's just that they channeled directly at him, but I tend to believe it's more specific than that, like the actual weave/way they went about resealing him. I could be wrong, and maybe RJ saying that it was lucky no woman came with them is an indication of that (or perhaps if they did come, and tried some other way to seal the DO's prison, then they would have succeeded without side effects).

[Terez]

Terez, Davian, play nice.

 

Sorry...What'd I do?

 

Terez disagreed with someone forcefully, and you backed it up with a 'yeah, pwned' comment. Have your opinions, be confident in them--but don't dismiss or denegrate your opponants.

I was being forceful?

 

Hi, Luckers.  I'm Terez.  Have we met?  ;D

[aunt_pol]

It's clear, I'm cracked, I've just read 44 pages of this codswallop in one sitting.  :)

Now, just a few things I want to vent on:

 

1:Please oh pretty please leave Valan Luca as the gobshite he so clearly is.

 

2:Isn't a major Rand/Mat/Perrin/Supergirls (basically everyone good)Council of War way way overdue at this point? Not a one of them has any more than a twisted notion of what each other is doing. Presumably there is potential in the Ta'veren internal telly thing for being two way as well as just observation, which would tighten that relationship nicely, and maybe there's enough water under the bridge now for them all to realise their close mouthedness/war of sexes is really hindering things.

 

3:Mat & matches. RJ loved repeating himself, in diff ways. I think Mat near blowing the shit out of the Stone of Tear with Aludra's explosives is pretty good foreshadowing of him using Aludra's newer more sophisticated fiery stuff to blow the shit out of the ToG. He is of course again risking life & limb to rescue a damsel in distress, and he just loves doing that. I know they appear earlyish, in that stable with Thom but they do come into their own here somewhere, they are mentioned quite a few times later, if only because of their novelty.

 

[Of course there is that feckin knife Avi finds, and sure as eggs is eggs that's the key to the ToG.Bags.]  But fire is obviously still an issue.

BS did say this "detail" is important to ToM, not that it's crucial to the Last Battle.

 

Also, on a separate note, I reckon new Sweetness & Light Rand will have no prob wielding Callandor while linked to Alivia, Nynaeve and prob Moiraine. Just cos Cyndane/Lanfear is weaker than pre Finn visit, I don't see why Moiraine couldn't come back significantly stronger. And she's clearly crucial.

I know it doesn't make sense and of course I haven't a shred of evidence to support it. Still like it though. Or could be Avi instead of Mo. BTW, she'd wanna be getting on with it if she's gonna get preggers with them odd babies before the Last Battle. Just sayin!

That's it. Night now.

[lillcheese]

I thought the knife ter'angreal's purpose was to hide someone from the DO?  Am I misremembering this?  I kinda think if it had to be a particular bronze knife to get into ToG Birgitte would have said so.

[Donnchadh]

What about Loial going to speak at The Great Stump and whether/when the Olgier use the The Book of Translation?

[Terez]

What about Loial going to speak at The Great Stump and whether/when the Olgier use the The Book of Translation?

That came up in book 11.  Rewind to 4-6.

[richnewton82]

.

[Davian93]

I thought it had to do with Fain turning a Myrddraal but I think it is either that (unless somebody has reason against it) or the Tinkers' message to "tell the Dragon Reborn." On page 586 of tGS Egwene uses need in T'R'H and it takes her to a Tinker camp. BS can commented a lot about Fain and now the Tinkers play some role in tGS.. Could be either but both seem pretty important to me.

 

Not 100% but I believe the Tinkers' message was crossed off by Maria and Brandon as "not on the right track" over on Theoryland.

 

Yup, just checked and its not that. 

 

I don't believe the Fain/Myrdraal thing has been mentioned.  However, I also don't know that it fits the requirements.  It DOES occur in Books 4-6 (TSR specifically) but it doesnt continue to occur from there on out.  He hasn't since used that Fade as far as we know.

 

Fain does play a huge part in the Last Battle.  Hopefully its more (and better) than the Gollum role that seems to be implied at this point.