Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[WWWwombat]

Verin eats porridge mysteriously.

[masty]

I was going through Verin's meeting with Mat section and noticed that she had her compulsion ter'angreal out when handing over the letter to Mat?

[Sentinel78]

was going through Verin's meeting with Mat section and noticed that she had her compulsion ter'angreal out when handing over the letter to Mat?

 

This is from Verin's POV in the Path of Daggers prologue when she's brainwashing Beldeine:

 

Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts described it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was, and there was that need for a reason. It helped a great deal if the object of the weave was emotionally vulnerable, but trust was absolutely essential. Even catching someone by surprise did no good if they were suspicious. That fact cut down its usefulness with men considerably; very few men lacked suspicion around Aes Sedai.

 

Distrust aside, men were very bad subjects, unfortunately. She could not understand why. Most of those girls' weaves had been intended for their fathers or other men. Any strong personality might begin to question his own actionsùor even forget doing them, which led to another set of problems, but all things being equal, men were much more likely to. Much more likely. Perhaps it was the suspicion again. Why, once a man had even remembered the weaves being woven on him, if not the instructions she had given him. Such a lot of bother that caused! Not something she would risk again.

 

 

I'm pretty sure she didn't apply Compulsion to Mat.  Mat's own terangreal would block it, he's extremely suspicious of Aes Sedai and I just don't see it happening.

 

[Wonzer]

I have to confess that I laughed hard when I read theories about Verin being black. I totally didn't see that coming! But I can believe not many of thouse who guessed she was black, knew what there was behind everything. One of the best scenes in the serie!

[A Trite Pun]

Quote from: coteaz on Today at 07:35:21 PM

None of the wonder girls know, because Brigitte says to mat that he is keeping his sounding of the horn secret from them.

 

All the wonder girls know - but Mat and Brigitte don't know that they know as of CoS - TDR makes that clear because Siuan discussed it in their presence.

 

Actually she doesn't. She discusses it with Verin, and later sends for the girls. They knew that the Horn was sounded, and that they brought it back from Falme, but not who sounded it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a scene at the end of TDR where Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Moiraine, and Mat were all in the stone when Moiraine tells everyone that Mat sounded the horn?  Are those the wonder girls you guys are talking about?  Sorry if i'm an idiot...

[masty]

None of the wonder girls know, because Brigitte says to mat that he is keeping his sounding of the horn secret from them.

 

When they were in falme and all the dead heroes came marching any one in the vicinity would know that horn has been sounded.

 

The secret Brigitte said she would keep is about his knowledge of the old tongue which truly is never a secret but mat thinks it is.

[Sentinel78]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a scene at the end of TDR where Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Moiraine, and Mat were all in the stone when Moiraine tells everyone that Mat sounded the horn?  Are those the wonder girls you guys are talking about?  Sorry if i'm an idiot...

 

You're not an idiot.  Chpt. 56 of The Dragon Reborn, after Berelain delivers Lanfear's message:

 

“Listen to this,” Moiraine said. “ ‘Lews Therin was mine, he is mine, and he will be mine, forever. I give him into your charge, to keep for me until I come.’ It is signed ‘Lanfear.’ “The Aes Sedai turned that cool gaze on Mat. “And you thought it was done? You are ta’veren, Mat, a thread more crucial to the Pattern than most, and the sounder of the Horn of Valere. Nothing is done for you, yet.”

 

They were all looking at him. Nynaeve sadly, Egwene as though she had never seen him before, Elayne as if she expected him to change into someone else. Rhuarc had a certain respect in his eyes, though Mat would just as soon have done without it, all things considered.

 

Egwene (who has control of the Horn now presumably) knows, Nynaeve knows.  Perrin and Rand were actually there, so he knows.  It's probably safe to assume that Rhuarc told the Wise Ones.  Let's also not forget that Hurin was there when Mat blew the horn, so the Borderland army knows Mat blew the horn, and they also know it's being kept in the White Tower.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, everybody who knows it's been found and sounded thinks it's being kept in the WT.

 

Siuan and Verin are the only ones who know exactly where it is.  Verin is now dead, and there is no guarantee that she did not move it from where Siuan believes it to still be.

 

I don't think we're going to have any idea where exactly it currently is until Mat opens his note - if we find out then.

[Sharaman]

Quote from: coteaz on Today at 07:35:21 PM

None of the wonder girls know, because Brigitte says to mat that he is keeping his sounding of the horn secret from them.

 

All the wonder girls know - but Mat and Brigitte don't know that they know as of CoS - TDR makes that clear because Siuan discussed it in their presence.

 

Actually she doesn't. She discusses it with Verin, and later sends for the girls. They knew that the Horn was sounded, and that they brought it back from Falme, but not who sounded it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a scene at the end of TDR where Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Moiraine, and Mat were all in the stone when Moiraine tells everyone that Mat sounded the horn?  Are those the wonder girls you guys are talking about?  Sorry if i'm an idiot...

 

Yes, sorry I meant Moriane discussed it, not Siuan. So "everybody", including large factions of the shadow and key members of the Aiel High Command knows about Mat's link to the HoV.

[Sharaman]

Of course, this is a hole in the CoS plot - unless you assume that Mat's memory is still playing tricks when he entreats Brigitte in Ebou Dar to not reveal this detail to the wondergirls and seems relieved when she says she kept his secret.

Blooper by RJ maybe? 

[Sentinel78]

Of course, this is a hole in the CoS plot - unless you assume that Mat's memory is still playing tricks when he entreats Brigitte in Ebou Dar to not reveal this detail to the wondergirls and seems relieved when she says she kept his secret.

Blooper by RJ maybe?

 

I don't think this is a blooper.  From Chpt. 21 of Crown of Swords, Birgitte speaking to Mat:

"You have your own secrets." Folding her arms under her breasts, she sat on the foot of his bed. The way she looked at him, you would have thought he was a tavern puzzle. "For one, you've not told them you blew the Horn of Valere. The smallest of your secrets from them, I think."

 

Mat blinked. He had assumed they had told her. After all, she was Birgitte.

 

Birgitte didn't know that Nynaeve/Elayne knew about Mat blowing the Horn.  Mat was surprised that Nynaeve/Elayne hadn't told Birgitte about this.  Everyone knew this 'secret', Elayne/Nynaeve just never mentioned their knowledge to Birgitte.

[jemron]

Also, I think it is more than just Mat's speaking the OT and sounding the Horn.  Birgitte knows that Mat has memories of things that are long gone.  He doesn't want anybody knowing that either.

[Balefire to da face!]

I should have phrased it better, I didn't know it would be such a bone of contention.

 

I was not saying she mysteriously showed up, I said she mysteriously showed up and rocked Suian and Moiraine to the core. Like I said, I should have phrased it better. What I meant was that she showed up, and mysteriously not only figured out that one of the boys was the Dragon Reborn, but deduced a good part of Suian and Moiraine's plan. Being Black makes this all much easier for Verin to puzzle out, since the Black know the Dragon has been reborn, and while I don't beleive they know Moiraine and Suian were hunters, she knew there had been hunters. Makes everything a lot easier for Verin to puzzle out when you consider that she had the Black's knowledge on the subject.

 

If anything, I beleive Verin's reveal is a huge kick in the gut for all us wannabe plot solvers out there. So many of us out there knew that "The Lie" was easily explained away(I subscribed to this myself) Hell, some of those out there even swore up and down that "The Lie" was actually a mistake by Jordan written early in the series.

 

I beleive it shows a flaw on a lot of our reasoning in that we don't dig enough for motive. We concentrate too hard on the raw facts laid before us, and don't dig deeper, to use creative leaps to reason out motive. And then motive behind the motive. It's this type of creative leap that would have required us to not only come to the conclusion that Verin was Black, but then to go further that she was a double agent Black. And then dig even further to analyze that deep down she is still Brown, and that gives us the motive and even actions of what she would do as a double agent Black. She'd gather knowledge!

 

The fact that we didn't is understandable since the WoT series is so large, that it's easy to assume that not every character out there has intricate motives. But Verin has shown just how much meticulous planning and depth Jordan put into this series. On my next rereads I am going to be much more careful about not taking anything at face value.

 

Oh, and I stand corrected about Egwene knowing. Surprising that Moiraine would let a secret like that slip in front of a couple novices.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

(In passing Talene Minly's example is enough to prove that it is possible to  remove the Dark Oaths with the oath rod – and as RJ said, it's also possible in TAR with a shadow rod. The rod only requires spirit to be  channeled and that can be done in TAR, dreams or wide awake.)

Really? Is there a link to this?

[WWWwombat]

I was going through Verin's meeting with Mat section and noticed that she had her compulsion ter'angreal out when handing over the letter to Mat?

 

I thought that was an angreal.

[Charlz Guybon]

I was going through Verin's meeting with Mat section and noticed that she had her compulsion ter'angreal out when handing over the letter to Mat?

 

I thought that was an angreal.

It was.

[coteaz]

i thought it was just a focus for her channeling? similar to moiraine's stone.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

i thought it was just a focus for her channeling? similar to moiraine's stone.

 

It was an angreal.  Check TPoD

[Mr Ares]

I was going through Verin's meeting with Mat section and noticed that she had her compulsion ter'angreal out when handing over the letter to Mat?

She doesn't have a Compulsion ter'angreal, it's a weave. And as Sentinel78 said, Mat's amulet would have protected him.

 

I beleive it shows a flaw on a lot of our reasoning in that we don't dig enough for motive. We concentrate too hard on the raw facts laid before us, and don't dig deeper, to use creative leaps to reason out motive. And then motive behind the motive. It's this type of creative leap that would have required us to not only come to the conclusion that Verin was Black, but then to go further that she was a double agent Black. And then dig even further to analyze that deep down she is still Brown, and that gives us the motive and even actions of what she would do as a double agent Black. She'd gather knowledge!

Luckers had a theory on Verin's motive - it was that she was aiming to have AS support him, but not control him. So she constantly undermines the attempts of AS such as Moiraine and Siuan to control him (such as the lie), but is not against them helping him. We do look for motive, sometimes, but we can make mistakes.

[Tam of the Two Rivers]

Has it been determined that Verin COULD have actually used the Oath Rod to remove her oaths to the DO?  Talene did so didn't she?  Sucks if true, and a little bit of a plot blunder.  Although verin taking poison so that she is able to tell EG everything is tragic and cool, the fact that she could have used the oath rod and not died, makes her seem kind of dumb.

 

Still a cool scene, though.

[elec1cele]

Has it been determined that Verin COULD have actually used the Oath Rod to remove her oaths to the DO?  Talene did so didn't she?  Sucks if true, and a little bit of a plot blunder.  Although verin taking poison so that she is able to tell EG everything is tragic and cool, the fact that she could have used the oath rod and not died, makes her seem kind of dumb.

 

Still a cool scene, though.

 

I don't know that it makes her dumb.  She seemed to believe she was under time constraints(reason unknown).  I think she believed she had to get this information to Egwene now.  She also had other plan's but decided the black ajah needed to be ousted from the tower so it could ready itself in time for the last battle.

 

So when she couldn't find the oath rod she took her other option. While it seemed like she had just arrived, she could have been there quite a while looking for it. I am not 100% certain that Verin's and Talene's oaths are the same but it does seem likely in which case the oath rod would have worked. To me her death is more tragic because it was unnecessary but her reasoning seems sound.

[Tam of the Two Rivers]

I agree.  Tragic because it may have been unnecessary.

[Graendals favourite]

I think the Oath Rod would have worked as well on Verin as on Talene. However, I think she didn't try to look to hard for the Oath Rod. If it wasn't there, then the Pattern willed it, and on the other hand the good tea was to be found. As Verin noted on Tomas, there isn't really a way out, and she had sent him off to do the same as her earlier. Verin, after all, was very knowledgeable on the Shadow, so it was what Ingtar saw in the Portal Stone trip, she just wouldn't be able to escape it very long. I think it nice she got her last blessings, though, I must think the way she did things did earn her peace like Ingtar, though she had undoubtedly done much as a Black sister out of necessity. Had she not done it so, things very possibly would have ended up worse. I think the tragic part was ending up having to swear to the shadow or die.

[deathgate]

I guess this answers that nagging question of her's concerning the trouble she got in years ago. I always wondered when that would be revealed and thought it must be important since it was never told.

[Olorin]

Maybe this is a dumb/irrelevant question, but do we know when this trouble took place? Was it after the Foretelling in the Amyrlins' office that Moiraine and Siuan witnessed as Accepted?