Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

[Worm]

sorry if this has been mentioned, but why dident Tuon tell Rand that she was Married to Mat.  it would have made everything so much easier, and Rand would not have been tempted to burn the world away, cuz of them. 

 

At that time Rand was so insane I seriously doubt he would have cared, he regarded everyone as tools and it would probably have been a bad move if Tuon had admitted feelings for anyone Rand could have used against her.

[randfandom]

I think that what may happen is there will be an agreement between her and Rand that the Seanchan won't collar any more channellers from Randland (at least not until after the Last Battle). That's my theory anyway  ;D

 

I don't think Rand will agree to any agreement that leaves women or men collared against their will. At the most I can see him accepting, for a limited time, damane who prefer to remain collared. Remember that Rand himself experienced the a'dam firsthand, so now knows first hand how horrible it is. Moreover, Egwene will probably go ballistic if he allowed captured Aes Sedai to remained collared.

With the return of his humanity, Rand has realized that his role is protector and savior, not destroyer. I think this will put an end to his seeing others as nothing but tools and, therefore, he will consider it his duty to free other channellers from slavery, thus leave behind a better world when he dies.

 

I have no idea how he'll force/convince the Seanchan that collaring channellers is no longer to be tolerated. I can think of several avenues, from Teveren influence, to either Cadsuane or Egwene finding a way to overcome the a'dam; to Mat's new cannons rendering human cannons (read fire-throwing damane) as obsolete; to Tuon herself being collared and found to be controllable by the a'dam, finally comprehending what it really does. The last possibility would be my favorite - Tuon is very cool but needs to be taken many pegs down. :-)

[Firebird]

I think that what may happen is there will be an agreement between her and Rand that the Seanchan won't collar any more channellers from Randland (at least not until after the Last Battle). That's my theory anyway  ;D

 

I don't think Rand will agree to any agreement that leaves women or men collared against their will. At the most I can see him accepting, for a limited time, damane who prefer to remain collared. Remember that Rand himself experienced the a'dam firsthand, so now knows first hand how horrible it is. Moreover, Egwene will probably go ballistic if he allowed captured Aes Sedai to remained collared.

With the return of his humanity, Rand has realized that his role is protector and savior, not destroyer. I think this will put an end to his seeing others as nothing but tools and, therefore, he will consider it his duty to free other channellers from slavery, thus leave behind a better world when he dies.

 

I have no idea how he'll force/convince the Seanchan that collaring channellers is no longer to be tolerated. I can think of several avenues, from Teveren influence, to either Cadsuane or Egwene finding a way to overcome the a'dam; to Mat's new cannons rendering human cannons (read fire-throwing damane) as obsolete; to Tuon herself being collared and found to be controllable by the a'dam, finally comprehending what it really does. The last possibility would be my favorite - Tuon is very cool but needs to be taken many pegs down. :-)

I agree that Rand has "found" himself again and there is no doubt he doesn't like the Seanchan's use of the a'dams. However, more pressing than that is his need for a treaty with them, and I think that to make peace he's going to have to make a few concessions. I don't think the Seanchan will agree to uncollar their Damane (at least not in the short term) and I don't feel that Rand has much to offer to make them concede this point (after all, you're going against centuries of ingrained cultural belief). That's why I believe the best he can get from them is an agreement that they won't collar anyone else (though, maybe, he might get them to release the sisters taken on the Tower raid - I think that would be the most the Seanchan would be willing to give up).

 

I believe that this is where Rand will "know the Amyrlin's anger". He'll make a treaty leaving Damane still collared and Egwene will absolutely freak when she finds out.

 

It would be great to see Tuon collared and taken down a peg or two, but if Mat is in the vicinity, I can't see him letting this happen. When Tuon collared Joline and her buddies, Mat forced her to uncollar them - even though he didn't have much love for them. He won't stand by and see his wife collared. Shame  ;D

[Diederichos]

Here's something I just thought of after rereading the book. What will Tuon and the Seanchan make of a male channeler who channeled in their city and gated out. It has to be something right, what effect will that have?

[Tud]

pI've been reading the posts and a couple of things come to mind.. 

 

  First,regarding the line "Lightning his eye" doesn't anyone think that that line refers to Mat's innovative use of Aludra's dragons to offset the Damane.After all, in any stand-up fight or ambush he would have two great advantages: his dragons can kill from a farther distance than the Damane (He doesn't even really need to be able to see them to rain down lightning on their heads) and they aren't used to even up fights where their damane advantage is neutralized. Remember, they got clobbered when Rand took them on (Even if he thinks he lost..They sure don't!), think how they will react when they are getting blasted by something they can't even detect?

 

  As for the idea of Rand having to kneel before the Crystal Throne..We've all assumed that that means he is (or is not) going to kneel before  Fortuana. The line dosn't actually say that...All it says is that he's going to kneel before the throne...There's nothing in that line that says the  Empress has to be on the throne at the time. What if Rand has to kneel before the throne to bind Fortuana but not as an act of submission..He travels' to Seandar, grabs the throne, brings it back to Ebu Dar and in presenting it to the empres has to kneel.  There's no submission in that..

 

  I think that there's even been a discussion about that sort of thing in one of the earlier books. I believe it was Morraine who was telling Rand about how hard it is to understand what exactly the phophecies actually mean. Remeber how elaida mis-understood the one about the royal house of Andor being vital to winning the last battle..She thought it meant House Trankand when it really meant the earlier family..

 

  On another subject,regarding the Seachen acquiring the secret of "Traveling"  just because they can't lie doesn't mean that Elaida or the other captured Aes SEdai have to spill the secret to gathering..At least, not right away..All they have to do is refuse to speak on the subject..That isn't lying.

 

  Finally, I strongly suspect that Fortuana et al will be revealed as thinking that the raid was a disater..They lost suldam, damne, lots of soldiers, doezens of hard to replace raken and to'raken and for what? They might eventually get the secret of traveling, but they didn't get the weapon they were looking for (because no one besides  Elyane, Aviendha and Nynaeve know what happened), they revealed to the entire WT the danger they represent (so much for th element of surprise), the raid led to the re-unification of the WT and they were driven off by Aes Sedai weilding  an even more potent weapon.

 

  Oh, and they kindled the wrath of both the WT and Rand (at least once he realizes what they did)..You don't think that the WT is going to let that go do you..Especially when Joline, Edarra and Teslyn show up with Bethamin and  seta..What do you think will be the effect if at the next meeting, Rand brings those two along and reveals to the entire court that suldam can channel? That the Empress can channel?

 

Yeah, I want to be a fly on the wall at that one!

 

  tud

 

     

[MatrixM]

7. Question: Do the Seanchan consider the raid on the White Tower a success?

 

7. Answer: Yes, they consider it a success, but they’re disappointed that they didn’t get their hands on the Aes Sedai superweapon.

I don't think Rand will be THAT angry. And I don't think he'll try to crumble the Seanchan's entire society by revealing that Suldam can learn to channel. He needs them too much. They'll find out some way, but I don't think it'll be him.

[FanoLan]

I really hope we get a POV from one of the sul'dam on the back of a to'raken concerning the raid.  Similar to the flashback on Dumai's Wells from Sevanna's perspective.  Just imagine the reaction to Egwene with Sora's wand.

[clu7ch]

Tuon is already bound to the Dragon Reborn....at least imho.

 

She was bound the moment she sat down for the meeting with Rand. The moment she refused his non-one-power type compulsion, she forged the bond fully.

 

It isn't the literal warder bond type, and it isn't exactly how most would see it, but she brought her fate and Rand's fate, and those who follow both parties, together and braided them neatly.

 

It's best described as the bond between the captain of the football team and the head cheerleader.

 

I think this has a lot to do with the fact that Rand went to dragonmount instead of superfcking seanchan masses at the end of the book.

[Kadaki]

 

I agree that Rand has "found" himself again and there is no doubt he doesn't like the Seanchan's use of the a'dams. However, more pressing than that is his need for a treaty with them, and I think that to make peace he's going to have to make a few concessions. I don't think the Seanchan will agree to uncollar their Damane (at least not in the short term) and I don't feel that Rand has much to offer to make them concede this point (after all, you're going against centuries of ingrained cultural belief). That's why I believe the best he can get from them is an agreement that they won't collar anyone else (though, maybe, he might get them to release the sisters taken on the Tower raid - I think that would be the most the Seanchan would be willing to give up).

 

I believe that this is where Rand will "know the Amyrlin's anger". He'll make a treaty leaving Damane still collared and Egwene will absolutely freak when she finds out.

 

It would be great to see Tuon collared and taken down a peg or two, but if Mat is in the vicinity, I can't see him letting this happen. When Tuon collared Joline and her buddies, Mat forced her to uncollar them - even though he didn't have much love for them. He won't stand by and see his wife collared. Shame  ;D

 

Yeah, I can't see Mat letting Tuon be collared if he could possibly stop it.  However, I don't think that or her own channeling would be necessary for a "U-turn" in her thinking.  Pretty much every time we see her perspective, she encounters at least one thing that changes what she "knows" is true.  Despite being frustratingly firm in a number of incorrect beliefs, she seems to be relatively open-minded when presented with the evidence.

 

Now that Tuon knows that the sul'dam are those who can learn to channel, it's inevitable that she will have all of them tested for the spark - perhaps regularly.  She'll want to find those who accidentally learned and doesn't yet understand that there's no way for them to work with damane without eventually developing the ability to channel.  She's going to unpleasantly surprised at how many sul'dam now have the spark, even if they haven't channeled yet.  I'd guess that there will be less than a quarter of the sul'dam left uncollared after the first round of testing, most of them relatively new (fewer than 2-4 years of experience.)

 

She could, of course, attempt to keep the status quo and cover that knowledge up, as the da'covale formerly known as Suroth did, but I don't think that's likely given her erroneous belief that learning to channel is a choice.  I also don't think that Rand or Egwene would accept anything less than freedom for all damane, both having expressed that conviction multiple times and also having been collared themselves.  There are all kinds of ways they could reveal the truth to the Seanchan citizens and remember that the indigenous populations don't have the same cultural dislike/fear of channelers.

 

Once it's widely understood that using the bracelet means eventually wearing the collar, there isn't going to be anyone who wants to be a sul'dam.  In order to keep the military power that the damane represent, the Seanchan will need some kind of alternative structure to replace the control that the sul'dam and a'dam give them.  An oath rod would be ideal for this, but is likely not available to them.

[clu7ch]

An oath rod would be ideal for this, but is likely not available to them.

 

Rand has an oath rod in his trousers.

[Mr Ares]

sorry if this has been mentioned, but why dident Tuon tell Rand that she was Married to Mat. it would have made everything so much easier, and Rand would not have been tempted to burn the world away, cuz of them.

I'm not convinced it would have made a blind bit of difference. To Tuon's way of thinking, she's the most important person in the world, and Rand needs to kneel to her. To Rand's, he's the most important person in the world, and she needs to kneel to him. She had no reason to bring it up, and neither had any reason to give way at their meeting.

[clu7ch]

The marriage would have probably made things worse for Tuon really, She implied that she was kidnapped as to appear to have been wronged by one of the DR's company

 

If she was in a relationship with one of Rand's people, especially Mat, Rand would have a serious leg up on her.

[deathgate]

I think Tuon would channel if she had a disaster happen to her like Nyneave did when she lost her block. Would Tuon forgo channeling if the result was her death? That would really test her commitment. Nyneave loses her block before dying. Rand uses the True Power before escape being collared and killing Min.

[Declan]

I think Tuon would channel if she had a disaster happen to her like Nyneave did when she lost her block. Would Tuon forgo channeling if the result was her death? That would really test her commitment. Nyneave loses her block before dying. Rand uses the True Power before escape being collared and killing Min.

 

The difference though is that Nynaeve is born with ability- which means that she can use the power naturally and needs only to be taught how to control it. Tuon on the other hand needs to be taught how to access it, for people that can learn to use the power they are unable to use it until being taught how. it is out of their reach. impossible for her unless she undergoes training (which wont happen).

 

Tuon won't ever channel i think. there would be no point. she doesnt have significant strength in it so i doubt that she would ever be taught.

[Sharaman]

I think Tuon would channel if she had a disaster happen to her like Nyneave did when she lost her block. Would Tuon forgo channeling if the result was her death? That would really test her commitment. Nyneave loses her block before dying. Rand uses the True Power before escape being collared and killing Min.

 

The difference though is that Nynaeve is born with ability- which means that she can use the power naturally and needs only to be taught how to control it. Tuon on the other hand needs to be taught how to access it, for people that can learn to use the power they are unable to use it until being taught how. it is out of their reach. impossible for her unless she undergoes training (which wont happen).

Tuon won't ever channel i think. there would be no point. she doesnt have significant strength in it so i doubt that she would ever be taught.

 

This last is not necessarily true - using the A'dam seems like partway to being taught - eventually Sul'dams start seeing the weaves. Bethamin channeled a flame weave spontaneously before Jolene smacked her around (and Mat spanked Jolene). You can't tell the potential strength of a woman channeler until she's learnt to access the source. Sharina for example, needed to be taught and is agreed to have higher potential than even Nyn.

If Tuon does channel because she's up against the wall, she could maybe surprise the hell out of everyone. Or not. You simply can't tell. However, it takes a while for somebody to learn control and she's unlikely to pull OP rabbits out of hats before the Last Battle because she doesn't have either the time or the teachers.

 

 

[jadelollipop]

RE: the question about whether or not Elaida would give the secret of Traveling to the Seanchan...she might not be able to as she can only touch the source when permitted by sul'dam. I don't think the first plan of leashing captured Aes Sedai is learning what weaves they know but training them to do as told..

 

[Kadaki]

I think Tuon would channel if she had a disaster happen to her like Nyneave did when she lost her block. Would Tuon forgo channeling if the result was her death? That would really test her commitment. Nyneave loses her block before dying. Rand uses the True Power before escape being collared and killing Min.

 

The difference though is that Nynaeve is born with ability- which means that she can use the power naturally and needs only to be taught how to control it. Tuon on the other hand needs to be taught how to access it, for people that can learn to use the power they are unable to use it until being taught how. it is out of their reach. impossible for her unless she undergoes training (which wont happen).

Tuon won't ever channel i think. there would be no point. she doesnt have significant strength in it so i doubt that she would ever be taught.

 

This last is not necessarily true - using the A'dam seems like partway to being taught - eventually Sul'dams start seeing the weaves. Bethamin channeled a flame weave spontaneously before Jolene smacked her around (and Mat spanked Jolene). You can't tell the potential strength of a woman channeler until she's learnt to access the source. Sharina for example, needed to be taught and is agreed to have higher potential than even Nyn.

If Tuon does channel because she's up against the wall, she could maybe surprise the hell out of everyone. Or not. You simply can't tell. However, it takes a while for somebody to learn control and she's unlikely to pull OP rabbits out of hats before the Last Battle because she doesn't have either the time or the teachers.

 

 

 

At the Portland, OR signing, I asked Brandon how long it would take wearing the bracelet for a sul'dam to gain the ability to touch the source, and he replied that it would take about as long as if she were a novice being taught to do so by an Aes Sedai; maybe a little less time because of the enhancing learning effect of the link.  He also confirmed that Tuon can definitely channel.

 

Bethamin and Seta are good indicators of how things might turn out for Tuon.  Although they had trouble holding on to the source, the weave they used sounds like one they might train their damane to use.  This would mean that any weave Tuon had taught to a damane that she is strong enough to make might be used if pressed.  Joline and the others agree to train Bethamin because further channeling is inevitable once it happens, so we know Tuon would have to get training or be a danger to herself and those around her.  Of course, given how well protected she is and her level of self control, it might be pretty hard to stress her to the point of channeling for the first time.

[Declan]

i think its pointless for her to channel. If she had potential strength in it, Nynaeve would have sensed it. And i doubt that the info that Sul'dam's can channel will bring the Seanchan down from within. Might ease up some crazy view points on people who can channel but leashing will continue until the last battle. i am pretty sure of this. i would be happy if proved wrong

[analyticalkeys]

i think its pointless for her to channel. If she had potential strength in it, Nynaeve would have sensed it. And i doubt that the info that Sul'dam's can channel will bring the Seanchan down from within. Might ease up some crazy view points on people who can channel but leashing will continue until the last battle. i am pretty sure of this. i would be happy if proved wrong

 

I agree with you.. since when they originally started leashing channelers, they knew the sul'dam had the potential to learn, but they didn't care because they had to have someone leash them... and with time, it's been forgotten, even if they re-learn this information, how is it really going to unsettle them? It will probably be a disturbing revelation, but I can't see this destroying the entire Seanchan might.

[randfandom]

Once it's widely understood that using the bracelet means eventually wearing the collar, there isn't going to be anyone who wants to be a sul'dam.  In order to keep the military power that the damane represent, the Seanchan will need some kind of alternative structure to replace the control that the sul'dam and a'dam give them.  An oath rod would be ideal for this, but is likely not available to them.

 

They don't have a choice. Teenage girls are tested and drafted as a matter of course.

 

But I suspect that widespread knowledge of Sul'dam as potential channellers leading to regular testing of them, will only result to mass defections. As Seta and Bethamin show, if they are going to be found out, and knowing perfectly well how damane are treated, they fall all over themselves in their eagerness to become Aes Sedai. In short, any Sul'dam who suspects she is on the verge will quit and run away rather than risk failing the test. They are better off hiding the knowledge and pretending that nothing happened, but I don't think it can work since too many people already know.

 

There are several other weaknesses related to the Sul'dam/damane system:

 

1. The number of channellers it has is limited to girls that have the spark at birth - who are a small minority of potential channellers. Eventually the combined WT/BT force will overwhelm them.

2. The value of damane in battle will be significantly reduced by the arrival of modern weapons (canons).

3. damane can't link - this severely limits their ability to fight non-leashed channellers.

 

I simply don't see how they can keep this system - especially in a culture that abhors slavery.

[Mr Ares]

If she had potential strength in it, Nynaeve would have sensed it.

It's not as easy to sense strength in a learner - in someone who has sparked or is close to it can be sensed easily by any saidar Channeler, but the ability to learn isn't automatically detectable. So there is no reason Nynaeve would have sensed either ability or strength.

[Kadaki]

They don't have a choice. Teenage girls are tested and drafted as a matter of course.

 

But I suspect that widespread knowledge of Sul'dam as potential channellers leading to regular testing of them, will only result to mass defections. As Seta and Bethamin show, if they are going to be found out, and knowing perfectly well how damane are treated, they fall all over themselves in their eagerness to become Aes Sedai. In short, any Sul'dam who suspects she is on the verge will quit and run away rather than risk failing the test. They are better off hiding the knowledge and pretending that nothing happened, but I don't think it can work since too many people already know.

 

You hit on a good point.  They could treat sul'dam as just one step higher than damane and try to force them to obey, but unlike with the damane, there's nothing like the a'dam keeping the sul'dam from running away / defecting. She'd probably take a damane with her, too (especially with the Seanchan about to learn Travelling from Elaida or another captured Aes Sedai.)  Regardless of how they deal with the sul'dam, they're going to be left with a lot fewer sul'dam/damane pairs than they have right now.  Also, those who are left are going to be a lot more reluctant to cooperate.

 

This is why creating a structure where channelers can be free and yet loyally serve the empire is so important for them.  It's just going to be very difficult for them to do, given the cultural biases of the native Seanchan who make up most of those in charge.

 

2. The value of damane in battle will be significantly reduced by the arrival of modern weapons (canons).

 

While I agree that the advent of cannons has proven to be an advantage to a skilled general like Mat (the Seanchan thought he had asha'man with him,) I don't think that the value of damane / channelers will be diminished as much as you think.  In fact, as long as the Seanchan don't have them, it makes damane even more valuable as a counter to that technology.  Even once both sides have them, while the one power's usefulness as an offensive weapon is slightly diminished, it can do a lot more than create lightning and fireballs.  I can think of several ways that cannon can be countered or even used against their wielders using simple flows of air or fire.  That's not even counting some of the more intricate weaves Rand/LTT has used like the shadowspawn-hunting lighting he created in the Stone of Tear or the weaves he used during the attack on Lord Algarin's manor house in KoD.  Even the high-tech weapons of today would have trouble matching up to those.

 

3. damane can't link - this severely limits their ability to fight non-leashed channellers.

 

Definitely.  Although, on that line of thought, has anyone ever talked about what would happen if multiple damane were to be linked together in a chain?

[clu7ch]

I wonder if Min was with Rand when he met with Tuon, if she would have seen the sparks of a Ta'Varen around her. Seems like a good reason for BS to leave her back at base camp.

 

Or what would she have seen.

[Declan]

i am almost positive that the book mentioned that Min was not with Rand when he met Tuon. It was right after when he was forced to torture her and he was in DarkRand mode.

[analyticalkeys]

i am almost positive that the book mentioned that Min was not with Rand when he met Tuon. It was right after when he was forced to torture her and he was in DarkRand mode.

 

Yea, she decided that Rand was right about her being in danger with him. But the other guy was saying, he wondered what would've happened if she viewed Tuon. Interesting thought really, I'm sure she has lots of stuff swirling around her, but we'll probably never know.