Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

[DukeBob]

How many Aes Sadai/ WO have they captured now?

 

Egwene commented "Nearly forty initiates - over two dozen of them full Aes Sedai..." (TGS pg 763)

 

Not a large percentage compared the total number of damane. Plus the full Aes Sedai at least would never be brought to battle as they can't fight. We would only see them creating portals.

[pacificflows]

Am I the only one who has the idea that Tuon and Mat are no longer married? After all, Tuon is "dead."

[ed2funy]

no dude....

he just became Emperor...

or Empress' husband, or however they do it.

[pacificflows]

So you don't think there's any significance to the wording, "The death of Tuon"?

 

I mean come on. Tuon married Mat, not Fortuona.

[CTM]

 

 

"Matrim would not like that, but he would have to see reason. He was First Prince of the Ravens. He needed to be raised to the High Blood, shave his head and learn the proper  way of living. That all seemed a shame to her—for reasons she could not explain to herself"

halo of blackness page 546

 

I doubt that Tuon would bother having that thought minutes before declaring herself empress.

 

"So much had changed in the days since her meeting with the Dragon Reborn. Her new name was only one of the manifestations. Now even the High Blood often prostrated themselves before her. Her so'jhin—

Selucia included—had shaved the hair from their heads. From now on, they would leave the right side of their heads shaved and grow hair down the left side, braiding it as it grew. For now, they wore caps on the left"

 

ForTuona still views herself as the same person. No mention of a new person needing to get a new truth speaker or shadow.

[Lilbaz]

I can't wait to see her tell Mat he has to shave his head  ;D I also can't see why people don't like her, she is the perfect match for Mat in that they are total opposites. She was raised to be Empress and Mat was raised to be a scoundrel. Also all she went through she is probably the only womean in the books (maybe Cadsuane) who never lost her composure. She would be a match for Egwene I think as she doesn't let emotions cloud her judgement and is certain. Ofcourse she is arrogant (although I think that is the wrong word) she was daughter of the Nine Moons the second most powerful person in her part of the world, but is confident in herself. Even when shown that she could channel she doesn't bat an eyelid (to her that was like being told she is part dog) and doesn't go into denial but accepts the fact and works around it.

[Sharaman]

I think Brandon is trying to subtly hint that Fortuona is also falling/ fallen in love with Mat even though she married for expediency. She is gradually becoming more and more fascinated and realising that when she thought Mat was lying about trollocs, Finns, etc, he was actually telling the plain truth.

[aunt_pol]

 

I have to agree with you there, Sharaman, I think Tuon is more than fond of Mat now, probably more than she even realises, and the more intelligence she gets in Ebou Dar, of all sorts of elements of life ( inc trollocs etc) in Randland will convince her that he's a real asset to her badly wounded/shrunken Empire. I think, therefore, that Mat will be hauled to Ebou Dar by the ear when Rand finds out his new marital status. In KoD she did remark to Selucia at some point about Toy being masterful, and a lion resting on a hilltop. I think Mat will put the foot down about the Treaty and she'll give in. Prob with the help of some conveniently confused birds creating omens or such.

 

About the Dark Prophecy, mentioned earlier, "The Seed slays ancient wrong", could that possibly be Mordeth/Fain? It's just the one that jumped into my head, anyway...

 

In Egwene's dream about a Seanchan woman coming to her aid, I think the reason the face wavers is that the Pattern hadn't settled on who exactly is gonna do that. It's gonna have to be an unusually sensible Seanchan woman, to not flee screaming from so powerful a marath'damane. Personally I think it's Tylee Khirgan, she seems to have more than the usual complement of wits.. And now she's been raised to the Blood, perhaps she will now be in the position to offer that aid, whatever it turns out to be. And as Egwene is so set against the Seanchan, particularly after the raid, her attitude to them ( and obviously theirs to AS) is a huge stumbling block to useful co-operation at the Last Battle.

 

Tylee has already figured out they can't, and prob shouldn't fight everyone this side of the Ocean.

And, Tuon did (POV) think she was going to have to question Tylee closely... this is, off topic, probably gonna be one of Tuon's better sources of info.

 

I do think the collaring is going to be a major jam in relations. You just don't let go of a prejudice that size very easily.

 

 

[Blackhoof]

I find it funny that Tuon will readily believe silly little things like cloud shapes, owl hooting, and random bird sightings and accept them as "messages of the pattern" but scoffs at the idea of evil creatures and ta'veren, especially when all these other weird magic things are happining and she knows that TG is near. "Mmmm.... a strangely common bird ith a wedged tail has pooped on my head, and even though I see people getting pooped on by this same bird species every day, this must be an omen, so i will order my armies to jump off cliffs." "Oh no! Hear that, the very common, double-hooter owl has hooted twice! We will all die!"

[wumpus]

If their omen obsession goes that far, Rand might as well just start releasing hordes of pigeons from gateways all over the city and freak them out.

[Sharaman]

The Wolf King and Hammer prophesies might influence Tuon after she hears Tylee out, especially if there are ants dancing the polka as Tylee describes Perrin.

What options does she have now though?

She's actually in a very dangerous situation - her homeland has gone up in flames and she knows there's no chance of reinforcements.

While she's got large forces at her command, quite a lot of them are also locals of uncertain loyalty and quality.

She's faced by at least three deadly dangerous enemies that she is in direct conflict with - Rand, WT, Rodel - apart from whatever she's heard of the Borderlanders and Shadowspawn. The Ever Victorous Army has lost whatever battles it has fought versus Rand and Rodel, it has also suffered heavy losses in its raid against the Tower, although it was on the plus side of that ledger perhaps. She knows that her husband is himself an uncertain quantity in terms of loyalty and a very good general, who's made her forces in Eastern Altara look like idiots.

Things will probably get worse because her opposition can ally and generate more resources - she can't.

She's aware that Andor and Murandy, Ghealdean, etc, will be hard nuts to crack and probably side with her opposition.

She has a tryst with TG. What does she do?

Given that the Seanchan are realists who understand military exigency, she will probably look for either a daring stroke like kidnapping Rand, or try to make peace on her terms before she is forced into an impossible situation.

[Impressive Bosom]

I do think the collaring is going to be a major jam in relations. You just don't let go of a prejudice that size very easily.

 

Very much agree. That kind of ingrained prejudice is part of their cultural fabric... and could only change through a pervasive and gradual revolt (which they don't have time for), or someone slapping a damane collar on Tuon, which will certainly change her world and through her, her Empire like a bolt of lightning.

[Sharaman]

My guess is Setalle Anan aka Martine Janata plays a role here. It's been mentioned too many times that Tuon and she got on and discussed stuff. If she is healed and part of the negotiations, it may make a difference.

 

[Blackhoof]

I agree, Egeanin changed her views by befriending Elayne and Nynaeve, so is Anny was healed then Tuon would be all lke: OMG! Setalle is a marath'damane! Well, they musn't ALL be evil, then...." Either that, or "OMG! You've become a monster, die!"

[lordofsoup]

i believe that tylee knew that Perrin had connections to the Dragon Reborn, possibly that perrin was taveren as well.  When she is interogated by Tuon, she will discover that Mat comes from the save village as Perrin.  I dont think Tuon is dumb, and she should realize that she is biting off too much with Iltrude alone.  not to mention that the white tower now has an enormous army at its disposal.  i assume that the tower guard and Gareth Bryne's army will be combined.  and Mat is the world's best general does not appreciate her people, and assumes that he will be killing them all, and he doesnt even worry about it.  The Seanchan are in no position to be trying to conquer all of randland as their entire homeland is in anarchy and there are hundreds of contestants for control of the empire.  I think that Seanchan will end up like randland is now, after hawkwing died, breaking up into smaller kingdoms.

[Blackhoof]

Either that or it will revert to what it was before Hawking conquered it: channelers running wild, kingdoms forming and reforming in the space of months, murder and crime everywhere, that sort of thing. And with no government, no-one will be collaring Damane. The damane that are now collared will stay collared in Seanchan, and some sul'dam will still be trying to collar more, but the next generation will be full of female seanchan sparkers. What the sparkers or the warring seanchan will do about it, i have no idea, but the suckers will eventually have a bunch of female channers running around, blowing stuff up and shouting "collar me! im dangerous!" But their wont be any more a'dam, cause theres no central government managing their production. All i can say is "Ha! to the seanchan in seanchan and their problems.  :)

[Diederichos]

Remember that bit in Gambits(I think that was the chapter's name) where Tuon thinks about how eventually there will be someone who claims the Crystal Throne in Seandar and that someone will eventually want to kill Tuon and vice versa(there can only be one-type thing). That seemed to be some major foreshadowing to me as to how the Seanchan will turn out and what the outrigger novels might/will be about.

[Blackhoof]

It will take a hell of a lot of work to gain the crystal throne, though. But its possible that someone will unify Seanchan. I hope it doesn't happen, but, maybe.

[Diederichos]

It won't happen by the end of TG most likely, but then again I don't think the outriggers might/will take place right after TG.

[thewalrus777]

As it is was previously posted Fortuona will eventually be backed into a corner regarding her defiance of Rand's demands for peace. With her finding out that Perrin is also one of Rand's best friends and Generals, she'll probably start taking a different tone on these situations, especially when Mat starts to put his foot down on the subjects definitely involving Rand. She'll make the realization that her homeland is shattered, she has no reinforcements to fight off the Dragon. She has to realize that change WILL come. For her people and herself. The leashing of channelers WILL NOT be tolerated by Rand, AT ALL. They will need to lose their sense of heirarchy, and their need of arrogance. And arrogance is what it is. She made reference to the kingdoms on this side of the ocean as acting like children needing discipline from it's parent's. Reeks of arrogance. I bet you anything, it would shatter their world to find out that Ishamael/Moridin had a hand in the downfall of their King Hawkwing. Almost directly at that, posing as an advisor whispering in his ear. The fact that they have a caste system, completely stinks of arrogance. The only people on this side of the ocean who've taken the oaths have been people doing it out of the sake of their own lives. The Dragon Reborn's will, shall be done. She will crack, it will just take Mat to make her see right of the situation.

[Sentinel78]

The leashing of channelers WILL NOT be tolerated by Rand, AT ALL.

 

The 'further' leashing of channelers will not be tolerated - true.  Although I personally thinks it makes more sense to leash captured Dreadlords than execute them.  However, Rand has already indicated he's willing to look past damane until Tarmon Gaidon is over.  That was the whole point of the truce offering. 

 

Egwene needs to force Tuon to see reason by leashing any captured sul'dam and parading them around Ebou Dar, and training damane as Aes Sedai (as well as getting them into group therapy sessions).

[Diederichos]

Wow, what's up with all the schadenfraude? I think a lot of people are missing the point of the Ebou Dar scene. I mean, here Rand sees that the Seanchan are the best administrators around and have genuinely happy people and all of a sudden he'll start cracking the whip after noticing that and especially realizing the Tinkers are protected in Seanchan lands? There has to be some long term effect to that other than Veins of Gold.

 

And the kingdoms on this side of the Aryth were acting like children, can anyone really deny that even prior to when the series started? The very fact that the Whitecloaks could go to pretty much to any lands they wished and whip up fanaticism and cause trouble sorta confirmed it.

 

The strict hierarchy of the Seanchan won't go away, why should it, what harm has it caused to their society? Damane aside, Seanchan is a fairly peaceful, safe and secure land for all of its people from the highest levels to the lowest levels. Even Mat notices it in Winter's Heart when he's heading back from Aludra's place, Seanchan justice falls equally on the nobility or the da'covale, they're even-handed about it.

 

Also, Egwene getting the upper hand on Tuon is a repulsive thought. I could accept it from Nynaeve or even Cadsuane, but from Egwene or Elayne, ew.

Edit: There will be a positive solution to the Damane problem, but it will come most likely from Mat, Rand, Tylee and Setalle. And something tells me the cannons will be involved.

[Teslan]

Well said dieder,  the whole Ebou Dar scene was Rands realisation that these people were not JUST bad guys.

 

  I have an interesting notion that the 'new' Rand will visit Ebou Dar without pomp and threats, Kneel before Tuon, and actually make peace with compomise, not with sheer force of will, arrogance and power.

 

I do not see him being angry about the attack on Tar Valon - they are not exactly his closest allies.

[Thews Lerin]

Even "un"-corrupted prophecy is open to interpretation, and hardly ever means what some would be scholar thinks it means. Thats been said a thousand times here and elsewhere, and by RJ himself.

 

Outside of the Forsaken these Seanchan gits are the SINGLE most arrogant bunch of horses arses in the whole flamin' story. Nothing they believe can be wrong, disputed or even considered. Gosh, how lifelike is that?

 

Don't forget ... The "sul'dam can use the OP" card is still on the table but up someone's sleeve. For"tuon"a bloody Knows it too, but has deluded herself into thinking it's "superstition", a lie, or is just plain ignoring it.

 

The Crystal Throne, also don't forget, is a powerful ter'angreal, that forces compulsion (or something similar, obeisance maybe, I'm too lazy to go check) on those who stand within it's range of influence. WHO has the bloody thing now? Is it "automatic", or is there a hidden off/on switch? Hmmmm?

 

How ironic would it be, for Rand and a couple piano movers to pop out of a doorway in SeanchanVille, snatch up the chair and split? Show up next in Elbow Duhhh.... and set up shop as Billy BadArse and have Oh 4Tuna, steppin' and fetchin' to HIS desires. THAT could change some bloody attitudes towards collaring women who don't WANT to be. Meaning those AS this bunch o' scrubs have gathered up recently. Most of the ones who've been puppy dogs for a while are lost causes.

 

OR her tiny hineyness, gets her gateways (by virtue of the scrub "Elvira" of the new stupid name) and does the above described deed her own self... Now wouldn't THAT set the Chicken Snake loose in the hen coop?

 

First of all: Funniest post seen to date! Great job. "her tiny hineyness" - priceless.

Secondly: I see the last guess as the most likely, but I wonder if having the crystal throne in "Elbow Duhhh" (another good one) would really make any difference. This is the first I've heard of it being a ter'angreal. If it really is, then maybe that's how the prophesy will be fulfilled.

[Diederichos]

I still feel we're interpreting the CT line too literally, like with the blind bit. It would be sorta like when back in the day when people were referring to the monarchy or the Queen/King of England, they'd say The Palace. Or even in modern politics when people say 10 Downing Street, the White House, 24 Sussex Drive, they're not referring to the actual place but rather the people who occupy them, the Prime Ministers of Canada/the UK or the US President.

 

I think in this case the CT can be interpreted to mean the Empress, the Empress' representative, Seanchan Imperial power. In her talk with Rand, Tuon says 'you will kneel before me, it will not happen the other way around' or something to that effect. If the Seanchan interpreted the prophecy to mean before the literal throne, she would have said 'you will kneel before the throne'. And they would make a lot more effort to get back to Seanchan as a result.