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Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

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I had to applaud Fortuona during her scene with Rand. I can only imagine how much it takes for someone to deny a Tav'ern the way that she did. Also, when she was trying to find a middle ground that they had in common to make the talk go smoother. Can't wait for the next scene with Rand and her. It will be great.

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I have several things to say on this topic.

 

1). I loved the scene between For(tuon)a and Beslan. It showed that she really does care and is a very good ruler. Also gives us insight into her plans for the Seanchan plans for their war.

 

2). As kac_04, it takes a lot of will power and strength for someone to resist Rand when he is like that. Even Cadsuane couldn't.

 

3). However, there is something I noticed about their meeting. She was the Daughter of Nine Moons when they first met and her placing Rand on equal stage as her was her way of "conceding to him." Now that she's the Empress, Rand will undoubtedly be seen as beneath her.

 

4). The Seanchan will now be able to Travel. They might be able to take Arad Doman, Illian and Murandy very soon. The dynamics of warfare and politics have changed.

 

5). I think Tuon's new name, Fortuona has something to do with the Prophecies:

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

Not sure what that means. Maybe it refers to the seanchan riding to battle and conquering. Who knows?

 

6). It seems that Tuon is returning some of the feelings that Mat has for her. Should be interesting the next time they meet.

 

and finally,

 

7). After ordering the raid on the White Tower, Tuon believes this will "set the Dragon Reborn against them" as they had previously been "against him." I'm not exactly sure what will be his response after his revelation on Dragonmount. I don't think Egween will approve as Elaida fortold that "the Dragon Reborn would know the Amyrlin's anger."

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3). However, there is something I noticed about their meeting. She was the Daughter of Nine Moons when they first met and her placing Rand on equal stage as her was her way of "conceding to him." Now that she's the Empress, Rand will undoubtedly be seen as beneath her.

 

There's also a certain degree of irony to it--prophecy says Rand will bind the Nine Moons to serve him, Tuon, out of a desire to not be superior to Rand refused to become the Nine Moons, thus allowing her to meet him as an equal, yet by becoming Empress she's made herself vulnerable to being forced to serve him.

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I think that Rand will actually make peace soon, and Egwene will be super pissed about it, or it could even be related to the BT and the bondings that have been going on.

 

But In regards to the Seanchan, Egwene will pull a fast one again and declare war on the seanchan, maybe even doing a quick strike.

 

Maybe the Seanchan will help Egwene with those bloodknives attacking a certain forsaken :P

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5). I think Tuon's new name, Fortuona has something to do with the Prophecies:

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

Not sure what that means. Maybe it refers to the seanchan riding to battle and conquering. Who knows?

 

I always took that prophecy to a more literal meaning. I didn't understand what it meant until the last book with Tuon's name change but now it seems more to me like it is a prophecy dealing with Mat and Fortuona.

The first and second line has to deal with Mat and Fortuona meeting and how that is going to be a good thing. Then the last two lines are about Mat and Mat taking Tuon. That was my interpretation on that prophecy.

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3). However, there is something I noticed about their meeting. She was the Daughter of Nine Moons when they first met and her placing Rand on equal stage as her was her way of "conceding to him." Now that she's the Empress, Rand will undoubtedly be seen as beneath her.

 

There's also a certain degree of irony to it--prophecy says Rand will bind the Nine Moons to serve him, Tuon, out of a desire to not be superior to Rand refused to become the Nine Moons, thus allowing her to meet him as an equal, yet by becoming Empress she's made herself vulnerable to being forced to serve him.

 

I was thinking this exact thing, but you beat me to posting it.  I couldn't have said it better myself.

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Rand and Tuon's next meeting will definitely be a highpoint in the next book, me thinks. She will arrive as the Empress, thinking that putting herself above him means that it is so, and expecting him to kneel as the prophecies say he will. And he will kneel, but no one will mistake it for subservience. Rand will show her that even should he lay prostrate on the ground, that he is still the Dragon, and it will humble her, but not humiliate her as he nearly did in TGS. Or at least that's how I see it going; Tuon will find herself in front of a much stronger man than she did before, however unexpected that will be.

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I'm hoping things go better next time around, yes.  I think honestly that Justice (the sword found in Arad Doman) is going to have a hand in it, in some way.  It's kind of convenient that it was found at this point after all.

 

I really want to see Rand find out that Mat is Tuon/Fortuona's husband.  That will truly be a -hilarious- type of scene.

 

I figure an alliance with Tuon is going to be what pisses off Egwene.  Either that or the bondings in the Black Tower, one of two.

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O Fortuna is a medieval Latin Goliardic poem composed early in the thirteenth century, part of the collection known as the Carmina Burana. It is a complaint about fate, and Fortuna, a goddess in Roman mythology, is a personification of luck.

 

Anyone seeing a connection other then me. Fortuna/Fortuona

 

Just my thoughts

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I think th next book will be all about solve problems in the lights forces. Rand -> Egwene, BT->WT, Fortouna - > Rand, Mat -> Fortouna .... and so on.

One thing though, Egwene and Rand should have done at least 1 meeting in this book. That was the thing i did miss the most.

"We must guide Rand, the dragon reborn", i just wonder one thing there... what realy do Egwene think she can guide Rand with? Now he have the memories and skills from all times, he know what works against the dark one, and what doesnt. He have faught him a 1000 times and won them all, now a 20 year old AS want to guide him?

The moment all the AS finaly get it, understand that they DONT know how to guide him, or cant guide him and should focus on HELPING him instead, will be Epic :) Egwene need to understand that Rand isnt the woolheaded little boy from Two Rivers anymore though, and Egwene can be a real woolhead about changing that ill think ;D

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One thing I noticed as I started a re-read.  Tylee is attacked by Trollocs only a short distance outside Ebou Dar.  We know that Trollocs cannot pass through a gateway, and all the Ways passages are being closed.  So... how'd they get there?

 

Did the Ogier miss a waygate?  Or did they get there in another way?  I'm curious because if they've found another way to move trollocs quickly, that could be scary for the heroes.

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O Fortuna is a medieval Latin Goliardic poem composed early in the thirteenth century, part of the collection known as the Carmina Burana. It is a complaint about fate, and Fortuna, a goddess in Roman mythology, is a personification of luck.

 

Anyone seeing a connection other then me. Fortuna/Fortuona

 

Just my thoughts

 

So I guess really has Lady Luck on his side?  :D

 

Yeah, I caught it and thought it was awsome. Now I will hear O Fortuna playing in my head when I read Matt's scenes.

 

One thing I noticed as I started a re-read.  Tylee is attacked by Trollocs only a short distance outside Ebou Dar.  We know that Trollocs cannot pass through a gateway, and all the Ways passages are being closed.  So... how'd they get there?

 

Did the Ogier miss a waygate?  Or did they get there in another way?  I'm curious because if they've found another way to move trollocs quickly, that could be scary for the heroes.

 

The Waygates in the Seanchan controlled lands are not being watched/closed. Just the ones that they can get to in Randland. So movement by Waygate is still on the table for the Trollocs.

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Rand and Tuon's next meeting will definitely be a highpoint in the next book, me thinks. She will arrive as the Empress, thinking that putting herself above him means that it is so, and expecting him to kneel as the prophecies say he will. And he will kneel, but no one will mistake it for subservience. Rand will show her that even should he lay prostrate on the ground, that he is still the Dragon, and it will humble her, but not humiliate her as he nearly did in TGS. Or at least that's how I see it going; Tuon will find herself in front of a much stronger man than she did before, however unexpected that will be.

 

 

I thought this was disproved a looooong time ago.  One of the forsaken changed the profecies for the Seanchan.  Rand will never kneel, he will bind the Nine Moons, through Mat.  That is who Mat married.  Why do the Seanchan keep saying that the profecies in "Randland" are corrupted?

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Because they believe that their prophecies are true.  THEY can't have wrong prophecies, they are the Seanchan, and it's the Nine Moons.  How could they be wrong? :)

 

They're as arrogant as anyone else in the books.

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Here's my issue...when Rand is throwing his "I'm gonna destroy the Seanchan hissy-fit," he realizes that they're not so bad.  The common folk are happy and life seems to run just fine under the Seanchan rule.  That leaves damane as the only real issue with the Seanchan.  All Rand needs to worry about is getting them to help during TG, anything else is up to the WT imho. 

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Because they believe that their prophecies are true.  THEY can't have wrong prophecies, they are the Seanchan, and it's the Nine Moons.  How could they be wrong? :)

 

They're as arrogant as anyone else in the books.

 

I believe the Seanchan think their prophecies are true, but me saying the sky is red doesn't make it less blue.

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Here's my issue...when Rand is throwing his "I'm gonna destroy the Seanchan hissy-fit," he realizes that they're not so bad.  The common folk are happy and life seems to run just fine under the Seanchan rule.

 

This is a city under occupation, don't be fooled Seanchan rule with and iron fist.  If u don't think that remember the meeting between Matts friend Prince (whats his Name, not very good with names)and Tuon. Head on a pike or loyalty to me. if Rand was turn by that scene he's more gone in the head than I thought.

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Yes, indeed.  Thus 'common man'.  Beslan was the King, his lack of loyalty equates to a possible rebellion.  They don't care what the common man on the street thinks.  This is realpolitik. ;)

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Rand and Tuon's next meeting will definitely be a highpoint in the next book, me thinks. She will arrive as the Empress, thinking that putting herself above him means that it is so, and expecting him to kneel as the prophecies say he will. And he will kneel, but no one will mistake it for subservience. Rand will show her that even should he lay prostrate on the ground, that he is still the Dragon, and it will humble her, but not humiliate her as he nearly did in TGS. Or at least that's how I see it going; Tuon will find herself in front of a much stronger man than she did before, however unexpected that will be.

 

 

I thought this was disproved a looooong time ago.  One of the forsaken changed the profecies for the Seanchan.  Rand will never kneel, he will bind the Nine Moons, through Mat.  That is who Mat married.  Why do the Seanchan keep saying that the profecies in "Randland" are corrupted?

 

I agree that the Seanchan prophecies are corrupted/wrong...  However, Rand doesn't have time to try and convince the Seanchan of that fact.  Unless something really obvious happens that somehow disproves their belief, which I doubt will happen, the best thing Rand can do is make them think that he's fulfilling their prophecies by kneeling, then binding the Nine Moons to him and taking control somehow.  It will be much easier to work with the Seanchan if the Seanchan think Rand/Mat et al are playing by the Seanchan rules, and I think Rand will do just that, then he'll take over by shear ta'veren power or something.

 

Also, now that Mat is more than a Prince, he may have some say/control over Fortuona.  Who knows what the Emporer can do in the land of Seanchan.  We just don't know enough about their heirarchy yet.

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Re: Seanchan prophecies:

From one of the TGS Q&A:

Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishy)? Which is more correct?

 

Answer: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering…

 

Follow-up Question: In both?

 

Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70663

 

It seems to me like this implies (perhaps strongly) that there has been tampering in both. Yes, I admit it's not an out-and-out yes, but it is certainly implied from Brandons response. So perhaps some of the Seanchan ones are correct and some of the Randland ones are false.

 

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'will bind the Nine Moons to serve him'

'will kneel to the Crystal Throne'

 

With no Empress, there was no way either of these could happen.  The Empress sits on the Crystal Throne in the Court of the Nine Moons IIRC.

 

Now finally with when Tuon proclaimed herself one of them will, and we won't know which until they meet again.  If Rand and Mat are together when that happens, I would very much like to see what occurs.  Perhaps both will occur in some manner.

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I think it was not Tuon who was able to resist Rand, but rather the pattern itself making sure things progress as planned.

 

And a question: do we know of anybody beside Elaida being captured by the Seanchan who can travel?

Could she resist giving up the secret?

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I think it was not Tuon who was able to resist Rand, but rather the pattern itself making sure things progress as planned.

 

And a question: do we know of anybody beside Elaida being captured by the Seanchan who can travel?

Could she resist giving up the secret?

 

Well, she can't lie and say she doesn't know the weave.  She also has shown herself to be quite selfish.  I can't see her withstanding punishment very long to keep the secret from the Seanchan.  On the other hand, it would be fitting with the redemption themes in the series for Elaida to inspire all the AS damane to resist betraying the tower. 

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On the other hand, it would be fitting with the redemption themes in the series for Elaida to inspire all the AS damane to resist betraying the tower.
Elaida resisting the Seanchan is one of the few things that might be able to rehabilitate her in the eyes of readers.

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