No, Balefire Does Not Work Like that. (-- 2009 Empy Award Winner!)

[Tamyrlin]

Brandon went on the record and said that there was no chance Rand could have balefired someone back that far to make such a theory plausible. While he put an asterisk on the exact amount of time, at the most we are talking days, not weeks or months.

[WWWwombat]

You can't travel at the speed of light. Approaching that speed, the mass approaches infinity. A huge black hole.

 

Massless particles travel at the speed of light.

[saidin69]

When they use Balefire I assume the strength of the Balefire is actually how long they uses it.  Like in Caemlyn and Shadar Logoth he held onto the Balefire Stream itself for quite some time, meaning to me that the thread in the pattern would be burned further back.

 

Sure when he Killed Graendal he used a huge bar of Balefire, enough to Destroy the whole Palace but he pinched of his weave and just threw it.  I would think The palace's threads and everyone in the palace's threads didn't really burn back all that far in time.  It just punched a huge hole in the fabric.

[Alghar Khan]

You can't travel at the speed of light. Approaching that speed, the mass approaches infinity. A huge black hole.

 

Massless particles travel at the speed of light.

Yes, but that is it.

[Durinax]

When they use Balefire I assume the strength of the Balefire is actually how long they uses it.  Like in Caemlyn and Shadar Logoth he held onto the Balefire Stream itself for quite some time, meaning to me that the thread in the pattern would be burned further back.

 

Sure when he Killed Graendal he used a huge bar of Balefire, enough to Destroy the whole Palace but he pinched of his weave and just threw it.  I would think The palace's threads and everyone in the palace's threads didn't really burn back all that far in time.  It just punched a huge hole in the fabric.

I am pretty sure that balefires strenght is in how much of the power you pour into it. Plus doestn it say that the person is instantaneously gone when balefire touches them so why would it matter if you hold the stream through that section of air where the person was

[draconian]

When they use Balefire I assume the strength of the Balefire is actually how long they uses it.  Like in Caemlyn and Shadar Logoth he held onto the Balefire Stream itself for quite some time, meaning to me that the thread in the pattern would be burned further back.

 

Sure when he Killed Graendal he used a huge bar of Balefire, enough to Destroy the whole Palace but he pinched of his weave and just threw it.  I would think The palace's threads and everyone in the palace's threads didn't really burn back all that far in time.  It just punched a huge hole in the fabric.

the # of threads is also a factor as 100s of threads takes more then 1

[ohaitharguiz]

I don't think even all that BF could reach back so far to bring Asmo back.  I'm bad with keeping track of timelines but, I thought it's been at least a year since Asmo kicked it.

 

With the CK, Rand had enough power to literally destroy the weaving of the world. I understand that the power needed would be insane, but it was completely in his capability imo. However, I seem to remember a quote somewhere in the past from RJ saying asmo would stay dead, but I'm not sure. The day after the book released I said something about him being alive in one of the threads. I still think that that is a plausible theory. Enough power to destroy humanity, but not enough to balefire someone back a year, maybe a little less? I don't think so.

[RAMb0211]

Another indicator of BF strength vs. time lapse is when Rand Kills Semirhage. He says that the True Power rivaled that of the CK, so when he BFed Semi nothing much changed because Semi had been in captivity for a few weeks. Tuon/Fortuona remembers her and Rand's hand is still there so even a powerful BF doesn't do all that much. 

[Nightstrike]

Another indicator of BF strength vs. time lapse is when Rand Kills Semirhage. He says that the True Power rivaled that of the CK, so when he BFed Semi nothing much changed because Semi had been in captivity for a few weeks. Tuon/Fortuona remembers her and Rand's hand is still there so even a powerful BF doesn't do all that much.   

 

Budapest Q&A (taken from Theoryland):

Q:And so the other Forsaken seem to be afraid of using the True Power?

RJ: Well, they are, because they know this; they will use it when they have to but they limit it, because they know that if you use it enough to let the saa begin to appear, then you are on a spiral and once they begin appearing, they begin appearing more often. And eventually, unless you are given immortality by the Dark One, you are dead. Now, the thing is they don't wanna die. This is really great, it is a really great honor to be given the ability to tap into the True Power. Which is not inherently stronger than the One Power. It's not that it is stronger in any way. It is just somthing that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power. Other people can't feel you embracing it or using it like the One Power.

[BrainFireBob]

You can't travel at the speed of light. Approaching that speed, the mass approaches infinity. A huge black hole.

 

Massless particles travel at the speed of light.

Yes, but that is it.

 

And we're talking about the limitations of effecting causality caused by an energy beam that vaporizes mass, so it's rather relevant.

[Nightstrike]

And we're talking about the limitations of effecting causality caused by an energy beam that vaporizes mass, so it's rather relevant.

No, not at all.  ;)

 

From Theoryland:

I asked, in essence, are One Power and True Power balefire the same.

 

He answered that the True Power is another source of power, that Aes Sedai were researching another source, like a different form of battery, to power their weaves and that in for balefire, what it does is essentially the same between both power sources, but that it has different affects on the individual using the power source (this appeared to be a reference to what True Power does to its user).

 

 

 

 

[nianp]

People had time to mention how the palace was no longer there, well, they aught to have noticed the huge hole behind it too ....I am going on the beauty of the landscape - it would most certainly have been as noticeable as the lack of a palace.

:-\ Maybe he expertly judged how much of it he should use? And then didn't force out more than enough? Or, maybe there was a big hole that noone bothered about?

 

Makes one wonder why DO didn't put his hands on LTT's soul since he didn't BF himself. Or does legendary figures bound to wheel like LTT and Birgitte have some special protection against DO?

RJ said that the DO doesn't have access to grab all souls. Maybe they need to swear themselves to him first?

 

It would also be impossible for Rand to be LTT reborn if he BFed himself and there would never have been dragon reborn and the DO would have won.

Balefire isn't the eternal death of the soul. It gets spun out again.

 

 

Ah, Nightstrike, you may want to double check that comment. Being BF'd IS the eternal death of the soul. When BF'd, the soul is burned from the pattern, never to be spun out again, hence part of the prohibition against using it.

[Barmacral]

Actually Nianp, Nightstrike is correct.

[Jemlin]

And we're talking about the limitations of effecting causality caused by an energy beam that vaporizes mass, so it's rather relevant.

No, not at all.  ;)

 

From Theoryland:

I asked, in essence, are One Power and True Power balefire the same.

 

He answered that the True Power is another source of power, that Aes Sedai were researching another source, like a different form of battery, to power their weaves and that in for balefire, what it does is essentially the same between both power sources, but that it has different affects on the individual using the power source (this appeared to be a reference to what True Power does to its user).

 

 

 

 

 

There would need to be a reason why any of the forsaken would be tempted to use the TP.  If it did the *same thing* alone, just with a different power source, then it wouldn't be enticing.  I suspect that, besides it being non-detectable by normal One Power users, someone granted use of the TP can probably pull more TP than they can OP and its probably stronger...which would explain why its more seductive and costly.

[nianp]

Actually Nianp, Nightstrike is correct.

 

A Force of Light, pg575

"They were gone. Burned from the pattern. Dead forever." (as opposed to being dead until they

                                                                              are reincarnated)

"Balefire burned someone out of the pattern completely."

 

pg 576

"...I did them a favour."

"A favour?" Nynaeve asked. "Rand, you used Balefire. They were burned out of existence."

 

If being BF'd doesn't remove the possibility of being reincarnated, then why the emphasis on the cost to the actual innocents who were BF'd? Why were they "burned from existence" as opposed to murdered/killed? Why can't the DO resurrect someone killed with BF?

 

There have always been 2 prohibitions against the use of BF.

1) The damage to the pattern.

2) The total removal from existence of any person BF'd.

 

If someone BF'd can be resurrected or reincarnated, then only prohibition 1 would be worth considering. If it was the murder of innocents that was the problem, then prohibition 2 would be common for all deadly uses of the OP where innocents are concerned, but this is not the case. Prohibition 2 is only ever considered when BF is being talked about. Therefore, there is something about killing someone with BF that differs from killing someone through another use of the OP. Through either use, the person is still dead, so in what way does being killed with BF differ from getting hit with a fireball? They are burned from existence. No possible reincarnation. It's been mentioned before, early in the series, by Moiraine I think, when Rand first started using BF.

 

It's difficult to phrase this in a non-confrontational way, but if I'm wrong, then prove it.

[coteaz]

I can actually agree with you, it is always mentioned in the books that when someone has been balefired they are burned from the pattern. And i also agree with you that if balefire doesn't kill someone permanently that what was the prohibition on using it? if someone can be killed far easier with other methods?

 

I mentioned before as an example IF joe balefired bob back 1 minute, then IF john balefired joe back 2 minutes, then bob wont come back as his thread has been burnt, Someone offered me a RJ quote that disproved this, however it still doesn't make much sense. What do you think nianp?

[Tamyrlin]

Actually Nianp, Nightstrike is correct.

 

A Force of Light, pg575

"They were gone. Burned from the pattern. Dead forever." (as opposed to being dead until they

                                                                               are reincarnated)

"Balefire burned someone out of the pattern completely."

 

pg 576

"...I did them a favour."

"A favour?" Nynaeve asked. "Rand, you used Balefire. They were burned out of existence."

 

If being BF'd doesn't remove the possibility of being reincarnated, then why the emphasis on the cost to the actual innocents who were BF'd? Why were they "burned from existence" as opposed to murdered/killed? Why can't the DO resurrect someone killed with BF?

 

There have always been 2 prohibitions against the use of BF.

1) The damage to the pattern.

2) The total removal from existence of any person BF'd.

 

If someone BF'd can be resurrected or reincarnated, then only prohibition 1 would be worth considering. If it was the murder of innocents that was the problem, then prohibition 2 would be common for all deadly uses of the OP where innocents are concerned, but this is not the case. Prohibition 2 is only ever considered when BF is being talked about. Therefore, there is something about killing someone with BF that differs from killing someone through another use of the OP. Through either use, the person is still dead, so in what way does being killed with BF differ from getting hit with a fireball? They are burned from existence. No possible reincarnation. It's been mentioned before, early in the series, by Moiraine I think, when Rand first started using BF.

 

It's difficult to phrase this in a non-confrontational way, but if I'm wrong, then prove it.

 

The issue is how you are viewing souls and threads and the Pattern. Read Jordan's answer below:

Australia Interview - August 1999

 

Q:  Balefire is one of the most confusing things in the book, for me. I find the fine aspects of it, the whole threading together of the things that work in it... Could you be a little more elaborate on that?

 

RJ: All right. The cosmography we're looking at here, is not the cosmography of here and now. The Wheel of Time is in its way a spinning wheel. The fabric of reality is woven by the threads. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality. When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn't simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit, like you just took a thread and put a match to it and it burns up a little bit before it goes out. It depends on how hot the flame is how far it's going to burn back and what the material is opposed to. It burns up a little bit, it doesn't just catch fire on the end and go out. So that person that was hit here is burned out of the pattern back to here. What that person did between here and here was no longer done. Other people remember seeing it. They may remember the supposed effects of it but what that person did wasn't done. It didn't happen, it's not real. Now that's a little bit of a shiver on the fabric of reality as it is. The reason that there was an unofficial agreement in the War of the Shadow to not use balefire any more, to stop using it, was simply that several cities were destroyed in that way. Hundreds of thousands of threads were burnt out from the pattern in one go and the fabric of reality began to unravel. And even the guys going for the Dark One knew that there's not a whole lot of point to winning if winning means there's nothing there to rule, nothing there to win. If you burnt out the stakes, forget it. Have I made it a little clearer I hope?

 

Threads in the Pattern, are lives that have been woven into the Pattern. Balefire burns that thread, it doesn't destroy the soul.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 21 November 1998, VA - John Novak reporting

 

 

Balefire: If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them.  But they CAN be spun back out into the Pattern as normal.  Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul.  He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.  There was a long line, so I didn't press.

[nianp]

I can actually agree with you, it is always mentioned in the books that when someone has been balefired they are burned from the pattern. And i also agree with you that if balefire doesn't kill someone permanently that what was the prohibition on using it? if someone can be killed far easier with other methods?

 

I mentioned before as an example IF joe balefired bob back 1 minute, then IF john balefired joe back 2 minutes, then bob wont come back as his thread has been burnt, Someone offered me a RJ quote that disproved this, however it still doesn't make much sense. What do you think nianp?

 

I agree with that. If Bob's been balefired, then he's burnt from the pattern. No matter how strong a blast of BF, I don't think he can be brought back.

[coteaz]

Okay so people can be reborn, when balefired, which makes balefire the most useless killing move ever, considering you need a good measure of strength to do it, and the repercussions on the pattern are pointless when you can just wrap them in weaves of fire and disintegrate their body, or better yet a lightning fast weave of air to slice them in half. Dead is still dead, no matter how you do it.

[richnewton82]

.

[WWWwombat]

Not true. Review your quantum. At the speed of light, all times are effectively simultaneous. Further, outside the light cones, you can make effects proceed their causes- how you'd get there is another matter.

 

so you've read stephen hawking? No sorry but that's science fiction or even science fantasy. time travel will never occur. Heck, even forward time travel is just an illusion. You are simply warping the perception of time. You cannot truly move forward in time at all you just change the way you perceive time itself.

 

either way its completely unrelated. balefire doesn't cause time to replay. period.

 

What?

[tneva82]

Ah, Nightstrike, you may want to double check that comment. Being BF'd IS the eternal death of the soul. When BF'd, the soul is burned from the pattern, never to be spun out again, hence part of the prohibition against using it.

 

RJ himself has said those burned by BF are reborn. There is even bigger authority on BF than Robert Jordan himself?

 

Actually Nianp, Nightstrike is correct.

 

A Force of Light, pg575

"They were gone. Burned from the pattern. Dead forever." (as opposed to being dead until they

                                                                               are reincarnated)

"Balefire burned someone out of the pattern completely."

 

pg 576

"...I did them a favour."

"A favour?" Nynaeve asked. "Rand, you used Balefire. They were burned out of existence."

 

Note that both of these are what CHARACTERS think. You think they are some omni-potent know-it-all figures who know everything perfectly? We know from RJ's comments they are wrong.

 

If being BF'd doesn't remove the possibility of being reincarnated, then why the emphasis on the cost to the actual innocents who were BF'd? Why were they "burned from existence" as opposed to murdered/killed? Why can't the DO resurrect someone killed with BF?

 

a) because Nynaeve *thinks* they are gone forever b) Because they die suddenly back in time. DO can't reach back in time(he himself comments it. EVEN I CANNOT REACH BEYOND TIME or something similar he said about it).

 

If you think about the characters in world have _no_ way to determine whether BF prevents reborn or not. How do they even determine whether person is somebody's reborn soul or not? So how would they determine after BF'ing somebody that he won't be reborn? Take records of it and then try to find his reborn person in future? Except that by the time current age comes again all records are lost...Won't work.

 

What probably happened is that AS realised the backward in time effect(person died in past and all he did are negated) and started to figure out WHY that works so. They came into conclusion of thread burning and then *incorrectly* assumed that means person won't be reborn again.

 

So THEY think they won't be reborn but WE know from RJ's comments that they ARE reborn.

[Nightstrike]

There would need to be a reason why any of the forsaken would be tempted to use the TP.  If it did the *same thing* alone, just with a different power source, then it wouldn't be enticing.  I suspect that, besides it being non-detectable by normal One Power users, someone granted use of the TP can probably pull more TP than they can OP and its probably stronger...which would explain why its more seductive and costly.

Most of them aren't tempted. You'd need to be "a stone-cold fanatic" to use it. The RJ quote said that it wasn't any stronger than the OP. It's just another source of energy that can power your weaves. There are advantages with the TP. Undetectable, harder to become stilled/gentled, and probably a few other things.

[Mr Ares]

Why can't the DO resurrect someone killed with BF?

Because He cannot step outside of time. They die in the past, and pass on to the afterlife before He gets a chance to grab their souls. This comes straight from RJ. If the characters think otherwise, bear in mind they can be mistaken.

 

 

[Second Chance]

Just a thought that I hope isn't a rehash of other posts...

 

In the War of Power the forces of Dark and Light agreed to stop using Balefire. IF the Dark One's ultimate aim, as Moridin seems to suggest, is to break the pattern in some way, shouldn't he be Balefire's number one fan and tell his team to go crazy with it?

 

Would you unleash the balefire in my service?