White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[richnewton82]

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[dhill]

I posted in the questions and tid/bits thread but, was the person that betreyed

Egwene and Leane at the harbor revealed in TGS.

[fikkie77]

Who says they were betrayed (beside Egwene herself)?

The Aes Sedai seem surprised to catch the rebel Amyrlin.

[benr]

Yes, they were surprised to catch Egwene, but they knew they were catching someone.  And Egwene was not surprised to have been captured.

[ed2funy]

Mod edit: Political discourse belongs in the Debates & Discussions forum. 

[cleantoe]

All I was thinking during that whole episode of awesomeness is that Egwene needs to learn new weaves. I mean seriously? She's still throwing fireballs at moving targets? How inefficient is that? She probably only killed half of what someone like Rand could kill with the same amount of power, cause he would weave stuff specifically ON the rakens instead of shooting a fireball that will probably just miss most of the time. She could have even woven "mini" travelling gates right over the raken and cut them in half.

[ajfurst]

All I was thinking during that whole episode of awesomeness is that Egwene needs to learn new weaves. I mean seriously? She's still throwing fireballs at moving targets? How inefficient is that? She probably only killed half of what someone like Rand could kill with the same amount of power, cause he would weave stuff specifically ON the rakens instead of shooting a fireball that will probably just miss most of the time. She could have even woven "mini" travelling gates right over the raken and cut them in half.

Arrows of Fire would have been perfect in the situation. Look at how many Trolloc / Fades Rand kills with them in KOD (minus any angreal/sa'sangreal). He can 'fan' them out and move his arms whilst 'shooting' them. They aren't the One Power equivalent of throwing a grenade and hoping you hit the target. A single Asha'man of decent strength (Narishma, Naeff, Flinn etc.) - with NO angreal/sa'angreal - would have been worth Egwene's circle PLUS any dozen AS for knocking off the raken/to'raken.

 

Whilst I like Egwene for being the only one organised to any degree during the battle, she still did a crap job, even with the constraints she was under.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

All I was thinking during that whole episode of awesomeness is that Egwene needs to learn new weaves. I mean seriously? She's still throwing fireballs at moving targets? How inefficient is that? She probably only killed half of what someone like Rand could kill with the same amount of power, cause he would weave stuff specifically ON the rakens instead of shooting a fireball that will probably just miss most of the time. She could have even woven "mini" travelling gates right over the raken and cut them in half.

Arrows of Fire would have been perfect in the situation. Look at how many Trolloc / Fades Rand kills with them in KOD (minus any angreal/sa'sangreal). He can 'fan' them out and move his arms whilst 'shooting' them. They aren't the One Power equivalent of throwing a grenade and hoping you hit the target. A single Asha'man of decent strength (Narishma, Naeff, Flinn etc.) - with NO angreal/sa'angreal - would have been worth Egwene's circle PLUS any dozen AS for knocking off the raken/to'raken.

 

Whilst I like Egwene for being the only one organised to any degree during the battle, she still did a crap job, even with the constraints she was under.

 

The point is she DOESN'T know about Arrows of Fire.  She did the best she could with the knowledge she had.  And fire travels very fast btw, and to'raken aren't exactly manuverable.  I think she did a fair job at the least.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Arrows of Fire would have been perfect in the situation. Look at how many Trolloc / Fades Rand kills with them in KOD (minus any angreal/sa'sangreal). He can 'fan' them out and move his arms whilst 'shooting' them. They aren't the One Power equivalent of throwing a grenade and hoping you hit the target. A single Asha'man of decent strength (Narishma, Naeff, Flinn etc.) - with NO angreal/sa'angreal - would have been worth Egwene's circle PLUS any dozen AS for knocking off the raken/to'raken.

 

Whilst I like Egwene for being the only one organised to any degree during the battle, she still did a crap job, even with the constraints she was under.

 

She did as good a job as anyone could expect given the constraints she was under.  For 3000 years the AS have been trying to appear non-threatening.  They've deliberately forgotten what combat weaves they knew.  Fireballs and lightning are about all that remains in the Light AS arsenal.

 

I agree, she and all the AS need to learn some more effective combat weaves soonest.

[wumpus]

Arrows of Fire would have been perfect in the situation. Look at how many Trolloc / Fades Rand kills with them in KOD (minus any angreal/sa'sangreal). He can 'fan' them out and move his arms whilst 'shooting' them. They aren't the One Power equivalent of throwing a grenade and hoping you hit the target. A single Asha'man of decent strength (Narishma, Naeff, Flinn etc.) - with NO angreal/sa'angreal - would have been worth Egwene's circle PLUS any dozen AS for knocking off the raken/to'raken.

 

Whilst I like Egwene for being the only one organised to any degree during the battle, she still did a crap job, even with the constraints she was under.

 

She did as good a job as anyone could expect given the constraints she was under.  For 3000 years the AS have been trying to appear non-threatening.  They've deliberately forgotten what combat weaves they knew.  Fireballs and lightning are about all that remains in the Light AS arsenal.

 

I agree, she and all the AS need to learn some more effective combat weaves soonest.

 

Not only that, but the weaves Rand/LTT used were invented during the war in the AoL and clearly most of that was forgotten. Not only that, but the AoL folks had a background in science. If one of us were there with the ability to channel, a sa`angreal, and a full circle imagine how the battle would have gone? I would have woven air and fire to suck out the heat from the air in the sky above the tower, dropped the air pressure and temperature rapidly and sent the entire flying lizard army careening into the ground through a thin layer of BBQing heat I had displaced. Physics + the One Power = win.

[wvlr2]

In her situation - I was thinking something more in the line of a bunch of (inverted weave) gateways hanging up in the sky.    Tie those off for a few hours and it would have been like a minefield in the air.    A minefield where the mine was used over and over.  Imagine raken/to'raken flying along and zip - there goes a wing.  gravity does the rest.    And with gateways it does not matter which way you hit it - front/side/top/bottom you get chopped up.    Also if you make the entrance and exit just 100 feet apart - you get two mines for one weave.    Of course it would have been rough for anyone on the ground - it would be raining chopped up raken/to'raken, suldam/damene/AS.  In the night sky they would have been even harder to see.

[zilcho]

Ofc others with combat weaves could have done it better but finally we had a book where almost all egwihine and surrounding stories were awesome, it was dense fun exiting action but it didn't leave out anything important during the entire book but at the same time closing of a time consuming plot.

 

The mine field idea was awesome I think, another thing would be to set up a series of gateways so that one exit/entrance pointed to another, that way she could have fireballs flying continuously all over the place. Or think of a string of balefire jumping between say 10 gateways, instant death trap I'd say!

 

I think the battle was awesome, it wasn't too time consuming, it wasnt pew pew lasers anti air power from the AS ending with too low casualties but also it didn't end with too high. It was a good balance. This plot also fixed or almost fixed the rift between AS, it brought new recruits in huge numbers that are going to be needed. Acording to me it was a masterpiece.

 

[wumpus]

heh what if you could turn all the a'dam into cuendillar. Talk about attached...

 

 

[Lambada]

The original male a'dam was made out of cuendillar.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Just a thought here....not really following the line of thought anywhere....

 

Does anyone (who lives in the US) think that somebody needs to pull an "Egwene putting shame on the Tower Hall and Rebels" move on the Congress in the United States?

 

I mean, we are at war (even if some don't like it), there are plenty of extremist islamic jihadist (darkfriends), and we sit here and squabble on healthcare (too many taxes, not the reform we need btw), and global warming (which is fake....)!!!

 

Come on, some one needs to tell them what a sorry bunch they are....

 

 

 

again, just a small thought.....kinda funny connection i made today.....

;D  ;D  :o

 

What age are you?

 

Squabbling over healthcare? These Muslims are darkfriends?

 

Unless you were joking and it didn't come across properly in your joke as you are not able to write sarcasm properly this is a prime example of how two people with completely different outlooks on life can read the one story and both enjoy it even though if I met you in person I wouldn't spend more than a few seconds talking to you before I exploded.

[SuperFade]

Hi all, first time posting here.

 

I've read through the whole thread, and I'm glad that I'm not the only one who still has problems with Egwene. Her reunification of the White Tower and battle against the Seanchan were really great moments, but her attitude and mindset need to change. Here are the main things that irk me about Egwene:

 

1. The Three Oaths. In my opinion, it's not enough for Aes Sedai to be released from the oaths only before they go into retirement. The First Oath in particular should be discarded, as it actively encourages people to distrust what an Aes Sedai tells them. Egwene picking and choosing how much of the truth to tell the people around her was horrifying, and indicative of the institutionalised manipulation that has plagued Aes Sedai since the Breaking.

 

2. Her attitude towards Rand. This has already been covered in some detail. I find it very irritating that Egwene, who grew up with Rand and knows him better than nearly anyone else, would automatically assume the worst of him. A particular example would be when she assumes that he had killed Matin Steppaneos with the One Power, after hearing a mere rumour about it. Then there's the fact that she still sees Rand as someone who needs to be controlled, despite Moiraine demonstrating that that's not the way to handle him. For all everyone's claims that Egwene will make a great Amyrlin, she seems to be heading in the same direction as Siuan Sanche with regards to the Dragon Reborn.

 

3. Her reforms. I would argue that they don't go far enough. All she's really done so far is to increase Tower recruitment by opening the Novice Book to everyone. Aes Sedai are meant to be servants, not rulers. They serve the common people. The entire structure of misinformation, manipulation and intimidation needs to be torn down; unfortunately, Egwene still seems to support the current system. Hopefully, she'll change her mind after a meeting with Rand and finding out just how much Aes Sedai manipulation hurt him.

[wumpus]

Hi all, first time posting here.

 

I've read through the whole thread, and I'm glad that I'm not the only one who still has problems with Egwene. Her reunification of the White Tower and battle against the Seanchan were really great moments, but her attitude and mindset need to change. Here are the main things that irk me about Egwene:

 

1. The Three Oaths. In my opinion, it's not enough for Aes Sedai to be released from the oaths only before they go into retirement. The First Oath in particular should be discarded, as it actively encourages people to distrust what an Aes Sedai tells them. Egwene picking and choosing how much of the truth to tell the people around her was horrifying, and indicative of the institutionalised manipulation that has plagued Aes Sedai since the Breaking.

 

2. Her attitude towards Rand. This has already been covered in some detail. I find it very irritating that Egwene, who grew up with Rand and knows him better than nearly anyone else, would automatically assume the worst of him. A particular example would be when she assumes that he had killed Matin Steppaneos with the One Power, after hearing a mere rumour about it. Then there's the fact that she still sees Rand as someone who needs to be controlled, despite Moiraine demonstrating that that's not the way to handle him. For all everyone's claims that Egwene will make a great Amyrlin, she seems to be heading in the same direction as Siuan Sanche with regards to the Dragon Reborn.

 

3. Her reforms. I would argue that they don't go far enough. All she's really done so far is to increase Tower recruitment by opening the Novice Book to everyone. Aes Sedai are meant to be servants, not rulers. They serve the common people. The entire structure of misinformation, manipulation and intimidation needs to be torn down; unfortunately, Egwene still seems to support the current system. Hopefully, she'll change her mind after a meeting with Rand and finding out just how much Aes Sedai manipulation hurt him.

 

They need to do away with the oaths in general. There are no up sides to them. It has been demonstrated repeatedly Aes Sedai find ways around them when need be, they set the Aes Sedai apart from everyone with their unique look e.g. strikes xenophobia cords, and it halves their lives. Remove the oaths and use the binders for what they originally were made for - binding criminals from repeating their crimes.

[analyticalkeys]

They need to do away with the oaths in general. There are no up sides to them. It has been demonstrated repeatedly Aes Sedai find ways around them when need be, they set the Aes Sedai apart from everyone with their unique look e.g. strikes xenophobia cords, and it halves their lives. Remove the oaths and use the binders for what they originally were made for - binding criminals from repeating their crimes.

 

They're not going to get rid of the oaths after Egwene spent so much time thinking they were useless and finally coming to the revelation that they are what makes Aes Sedai just that.

[Aleron688]

They're not going to get rid of the oaths after Egwene spent so much time thinking they were useless and finally coming to the revelation that they are what makes Aes Sedai just that.

 

agreed.  it took her like, what... 9 or 10 books to come to that realization?  in the next 2 they wont be like... o wait, i was wrong all along! :P

 

people need to remember that all these things are happening within a story, and something they would like to happen has to be feasible before it can

[SuperFade]

I'll admit that we, as readers with the benefit of hindsight and an elevated perspective, can see these problems far more easily than Egwene can. However, I still find it odd that Egwene changed her mind about the oaths in the space of a single conversation with Siuan.

 

The reality is that the Three Oaths are propping up the corrupt, manipulative and subversive old regieme, which has been repeatedly proven to be in dire need of reform. It's pretty obvious that the Aes Sedai as they are now will never surpass the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends, and in my opinion this is mainly due to the oaths. I personally think Egwene is mistaken, although as you said it's unlikely she'll change her mind now.

 

 

[aunt_pol]

1:I think Egwene's stance on the Oaths is indeed really disappointing. She went on ad infinitum about the "Aiel embracing pain" carry on, but she forgot fairly bloody quickly [how she had realised] they do very bloody well without any feckin Oaths at all. Somebody else is gonna throw the Wise Ones and the Windfinders in her face as examples of channelers not being spoilt arrogant lying bitches.

 

2:Also, I'm kinda... concerned about how the Rand vs Egwene meeting is gonna go down.

"Will know her anger"?

I really hope she doesn't get any warning about how cracked he's been lately  (Tam's scene) before she meets him. I know he's all happy now etc, but he's still one stubborn man, and with her ego in superdrive, there could be major sparks!

 

3: I know he's a bit of a tosser, but she was really shitty to Gawyn. Esp considering he's prob gonna save her from one of the Bloodknives, by dint of her Bonding him, which will prob then bring out her Dream about his path leading to Bonding and/or death. 

 

4:Of course, her little need trip to the Tinkers is obviously hugely more significant than shown.

 

 

[Lambada]

2:Also, I'm kinda... concerned about how the Rand vs Egwene meeting is gonna go down.

"Will know her anger"?

I really hope she doesn't get any warning about how cracked he's been lately  (Tam's scene) before she meets him. I know he's all happy now etc, but he's still one stubborn man, and with her ego in superdrive, there could be major sparks!

 

I've been thinking on this, and I wonder if 'know her anger' is not being mis-interpreted. Rather than knowing her anger by Egwene berating him for what (she thinks) he has done, could it not being 'knowing her anger' as in understanding the difference between her anger and his. When the WT was attacked Egwenes anger was 'cold, distilled' etc. Could it be an indication that Rand will also realise that that is how to manage anger, rather than squishing it into a cold hard ball. Thus he will 'know her anger'.

Or perhaps both interpretations will be true.

[Seven of Nine]

Lambada, I love your interpretation! As we're winding down to the end of this story, we don't have time for more power tripping of AS with Rand. Somehow these old friends need to trust each other again.

[Jemlin]

2:Also, I'm kinda... concerned about how the Rand vs Egwene meeting is gonna go down.

"Will know her anger"?

I really hope she doesn't get any warning about how cracked he's been lately  (Tam's scene) before she meets him. I know he's all happy now etc, but he's still one stubborn man, and with her ego in superdrive, there could be major sparks!

 

I've been thinking on this, and I wonder if 'know her anger' is not being mis-interpreted. Rather than knowing her anger by Egwene berating him for what (she thinks) he has done, could it not being 'knowing her anger' as in understanding the difference between her anger and his. When the WT was attacked Egwenes anger was 'cold, distilled' etc. Could it be an indication that Rand will also realise that that is how to manage anger, rather than squishing it into a cold hard ball. Thus he will 'know her anger'.

Or perhaps both interpretations will be true.

 

Hmmm very interesting. It would be nice for something to turn out to NOT be a literal enactment of the Fortelling.

 

 

[Seven of Nine]

I've been thinking on this, and I wonder if 'know her anger' is not being mis-interpreted. Rather than knowing her anger by Egwene berating him for what (she thinks) he has done, could it not being 'knowing her anger' as in understanding the difference between her anger and his. When the WT was attacked Egwenes anger was 'cold, distilled' etc. Could it be an indication that Rand will also realise that that is how to manage anger, rather than squishing it into a cold hard ball. Thus he will 'know her anger'.

Or perhaps both interpretations will be true.

Okay, so here's what happened last night. I went to a local signing, and I asked Brandon about if we'd see Rand and Egwene meeting up in ToM. (He mentioned that they would about as much time in ToM as Mat did in TGS.) Brandon quoted the prophecy about her anger, and I mentioned your interpretation. Here's what he handed me:

The infamous RAFO card.  ;D

 

So, are you on to something?