Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Galahad]

if you would remember that the TP is 10 times as addictive as Saidin so Rand was just lulled in to the seduction by the TP

 

Rand towards the end was getting all of Lewes Therin memory so after Rand loses the Voice of Lewes Therin will he keep the memory?

 

i have a weird theory Lewes said that the reason that saidin was tainted because they touched it to the prison and they had to but shouldn't but what if the reason that rand is supposed to reseal the dark one is because of his connection with Moridin allows him to use TP to touch the dark one seal as is needed without a counter stroke and truesource cleansed

 

Ps sorry for the spealing errors  

 

 

 

*sigh*  It was never Lt's voice.  It was a coping mechanism of Rands ego/subconcious.  He did not LOSE anything, he accepted what he really was.  SO yes, the memories will still be there.

 

I completely agree with the above post--the memories are real (just as with Matt and the other folks in the Two Rivers), but the voice was never real.  It was a symptom of Rand's crazies.

What exactly is the difference between a real voice in your head and a fake one then?

 

Obviously Lews Therin's personality is different from Rand's because of his experiences in life.

 

It wasn't a coping mechanism. Rand's subconscious didn't all of the sudden develop a new personality to deal with all of these new memories. With the memories of Lews Therin came his personality as well. It just took a while to integrate that into himself.

 

 

 

What they are trying to say, is that there isn't actually another human being trying to speak with him. It is simply memories.

 

Well if that is what they are saying, I can agree. Obviously since they share the same soul they are the same person.

 

I just don't think that we can neglect the fact that with Lews Therin's memories comes a different personality which had to be integrated with Rand's.

[Hot_Soup]

Semirhage said it best. That people tainted hear voices, and sure, Rand's voice is real, but that doesn't make him any less crazy, it's just a triviality.

 

See, voices in your head are yourself no matter who you are. So yeah, Rand's voice was Lews Therin, who is at the same time 100% Rand.

 

Of course the real question now is, how much is Rand going to know? Is he going to know everything LTT knew? Is he going to know everything that every dragon ever has known? Maybe the big difference in this age is going to be that Rand decided not to be crazy, and now he'll beat the Dark One for good. After all that was his revelation, maybe this time I can get it right.

[kevin-nivek]

 

"First of all, what is the bore?

A: A hole/thinness in the pattern

 

This implies that before the bore, there was no bore.

No bore means no thinness of pattern and no hole in the pattern.

Which means that the "gap" was bridged by the pattern itself."

 

the thinness in the pattern was what allowed the bore to be drilled in the first place, it was there before the age of legends

[benr]

If the True Power is used to seal the bore, and gets tainted, who cares?  Does/can the DO use the True Power himself, or does he need a surrogate?  If the DO can use the True Power, could Rand create a weave (with the True Power) that seals the bore when struck by the DO's own channeling?

[kevin-nivek]

its been said that trying to channel the true power at the bore will kill you instantly since theres so much power there

[griz]

For starters, loved the Star Wars analogy!  It was similar to that as well as LOTR with the evil in the ring tainting Frodo. 

 

Why didn't Rand destory Ebou Dar?  I think he at least needs to prove to them he isn't to be messed with either.  Now they will know he was there and ran so he'll look weak.  I think he at least needs to bring a few ashaman with him through Fortuona's palace and show her what he's capable of. 

 

Any chance they create a new CK?

[tneva82]

For starters, loved the Star Wars analogy!  It was similar to that as well as LOTR with the evil in the ring tainting Frodo. 

 

Why didn't Rand destory Ebou Dar?  I think he at least needs to prove to them he isn't to be messed with either.  Now they will know he was there and ran so he'll look weak.  I think he at least needs to bring a few ashaman with him through Fortuona's palace and show her what he's capable of. 

 

Any chance they create a new CK?

 

Maybe Rand realised he just couldn't be such a monster as to wipe out Seanchan like that(note he was planning not just Ebou Dar but all of them). Not to mention that much balefire would have unraveled the pattern almost certainly...

 

And as for new CK. Nope. They can't create even simple angreal. And if they WOULD create Rand would just blow that up again. He didn't blow it by mistake. He deliberatly took it out because it needed to be destroyed. It should never have been created in a first place.

[Mr Ares]

Planning yes but wouldn't be first time plans are made in war which are disgarded.

Irrelevant. There was evidence besides Egwene's Dream to suggest an attack was coming.

If truce would have been made would the seanchan really launched attack? Thus pissing Rand off big time and causing truce to break apart...

A truce between Rand and the Seanchan, not between the Seanchan and Rand. I doubt either the Seanchan or the AS consider Rand to have the authority to negotiate on behalf of the WT.

[coteaz]

The seanchan, namely Tuon at the time, thinks that the WT is just a pawn of Rand.

[lillcheese]

The seanchan, namely Tuon at the time, thinks that the WT is just a pawn of Rand.

 

No, I think it was Galgan who told her that he couldn't separate the truth from rumors abut Rand's relationship with the WT.  They decided to operate on a worst case scenario that attacking the WT would offend Rand. 

[Seven of Nine]

Other than the Pollyanna factor, I don't think it works for Moridin to convert. 

 

He and Rand have been battling each other since forever.  If Moridin converts at the last, then would the wheel be able to spin him out again in the future to be the DO's champion?  I kinda don't think so. It would only work if the Pattern can accept that kind of large change.

But couldn't that create a new wheel (age?) and set up a new cycle? I think what we're going to see is an end to the old one.

[tneva82]

A truce between Rand and the Seanchan, not between the Seanchan and Rand. I doubt either the Seanchan or the AS consider Rand to have the authority to negotiate on behalf of the WT.

 

And you don't think Rand wouldn't put as part of his terms that attacks against these nations must stop? That was the whole frigging point of the truce!

 

So if they had attacked they would have pissed off Rand big time and cause immediate response as Rand would have seen that as breaking the truce.

 

What you think Rand was trying to accomplish if not end for the Seanchan invasion 'till atleast last battle was over? Was his goal just tea party or something?

[Whitering]

Imagine, say, 200 years from now if Rand goes of and fights TG while the Seachan do an end run on all of Randland, just how the Seanchan will be viewed. Rebellion...

 

Seanchan are not necessarily toast if the One Power goes bye bye as some people are suggesting it will, but they would be on extremely shaky ground.

[karehiro]

 

And as for new CK. Nope. They can't create even simple angreal. And if they WOULD create Rand would just blow that up again. He didn't blow it by mistake. He deliberatly took it out because it needed to be destroyed. It should never have been created in a first place.

 

If the Choedan Kal was never created, saidin would have never gotten cleansed, a scenario which would have eventually destroyed the world again.

 

The Choedan Kal had the potential not only just for destruction but for tremendous good as well.

[rane008]

Hey all, first time posting, so flame away. 

 

There is a prophesy from the Karaethon Cycle, I think:

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

 

I think that this is the reason that Dark Rand winning the LB would have still resulted in the destruction of all things.  He is the Dragon, and in ancient Arthurian legends, the Dragon is the earth, the water, everything in the universe made manifest.  If he were to turn evil, the DO wins.  By learning to laugh again, he has turned back to the Light, and thus, so has the earth.  I agree that we will see plants starting to grow again.  Remember that when he was "dark", only the negative twisting of ta'veren happened.  Now that he is regaining balance (though I wonder if he will truly achieve that until Moiraine is back), so too is ta'veren balanced.  But for him, since he is all of creation personified, ta'veren balance = earth's balance. 

 

Flame on.

 

 

 

[sheikh chilli]

the destruction of the choedan kal is one of the if not the biggest retarded moves ever made by a character in a book.

 

one blow with that sanagreal would render all of the blight useless. And rand destroys it. Apparently it was too powerful. It was not too powerful when he cleansed saidin though. what a shame.

 

oh well at least the shadow has a fighting chance now lol

[SinisterDeath]

the destruction of the choedan kal is one of the if not the biggest retarded moves ever made by a character in a book.

 

one blow with that sanagreal would render all of the blight useless. And rand destroys it. Apparently it was too powerful. It was not too powerful when he cleansed saidin though. what a shame.

 

oh well at least the shadow has a fighting chance now lol

 

Wow, people totally miss-what was going on in the book.

 

Destroying the massive sa'angreal was a GOOD thing.

Part of the reason why Rand started going 'darker and darker' was Because of the the access key! It was his meth, he HAD to have it near him at all times to 'carress it'. It was deeply addictive and manipulative. Theres a reason Shadar Haren did not take it.

 

And worse yet, what if demodred got his hands on it? Destroying it pretty much gaurntees that no one person good or evil can have access to something that is 'too' powerful.

 

And besides, Rand has tons of sa'angral laying around that gives him the edge over any forsaken.

 

ALSO

Lewis Therins memories indicate, that you CAN NOT DEFEAT THE DARKONE through BRUTE FORCE alone!

 

His armies fighting the armies of the dark one, is only going to be a 'minor portion' of the upcoming battle. Thats not even the real 'final' battle. The real 'final' battle is not going to be fought with armies. I can almost gaurntee that.

[padainfain]

I only read the first 6 pages of this discussion - So I apologise in advance if someone has already presented this theory about Rand using the TP. My first point is that I dont think the DO gave RAND direct access to the TP, I think it was drawn directly through his link to ishy. Here's where my theory on the magnitude of the TP drawn comes into it.

Now bear with me for a second here.

 

First off think of an internet connection split along a network of 10 computers, if all 10 computers were downloading a file at once, they could only do so at 1/10th the speed. Now consider the fact that when ishy faced rand using callandor he came somewhere near rands level of strength - and there were still 10 forsaken alive with access to the TP at the time.

 

Assuming the dark one acknowledges the fact there is a chance that all 10 of them COULD wield it at once, and that giving them all access to the maximum amount of TP and having that happen could drain him completely - it would make sense he would divide the amounts they could wield up, so that even if they all used it to the fullest, he'd have power to spare and it wouldnt worry him.

 

ERGO - Once moridin became Nae'Bliss - He gained exclusive access to the amounts of the TP all the surviving forsaken were sharing.

 

Assuming A: 10 times the power of callandor would rival the cheoden kal. B: The power the forsaken kept going on about attaining as nae'bliss was as much literal as it was a figurative position of "power". And C: That rand did really did pull the TP through moridin - I would say that in magnitude AND addictiveness Rands perspective of what he was drawing was about right.

 

Besides Lanfear seemed pretty confident that using both statues the DO could be defeated by her and rand. The DO knows Rand had the statue, wouldnt it make sense that he would grant almost an equal share of the TP to his champion, ishy, so as he could stand a chance?

[sheikh chilli]

the destruction of the choedan kal is one of the if not the biggest retarded moves ever made by a character in a book.

 

one blow with that sanagreal would render all of the blight useless. And rand destroys it. Apparently it was too powerful. It was not too powerful when he cleansed saidin though. what a shame.

 

oh well at least the shadow has a fighting chance now lol

 

Wow, people totally miss-what was going on in the book.

 

Destroying the massive sa'angreal was a GOOD thing.

Part of the reason why Rand started going 'darker and darker' was Because of the the access key! It was his meth, he HAD to have it near him at all times to 'carress it'. It was deeply addictive and manipulative. Theres a reason Shadar Haren did not take it.

 

And worse yet, what if demodred got his hands on it? Destroying it pretty much gaurntees that no one person good or evil can have access to something that is 'too' powerful.

 

And besides, Rand has tons of sa'angral laying around that gives him the edge over any forsaken.

 

ALSO

Lewis Therins memories indicate, that you CAN NOT DEFEAT THE DARKONE through BRUTE FORCE alone!

 

His armies fighting the armies of the dark one, is only going to be a 'minor portion' of the upcoming battle. Thats not even the real 'final' battle. The real 'final' battle is not going to be fought with armies. I can almost gaurntee that.

 

 

 

destroyying it was a good thing? what do you think would have happened if rand destroyed it before he figured out a way to cleanse saidin using the kal. what then?

 

a world full of mad men with the dragon amonngst them. a good thing indeed. the kal was created in the age of legends. all this meth you are talking about is nonsense. Otherwise every sangreal should come with a warning laberl saying. too addictive to use.  which ofcourse is missing the point. sangreal and angreal are meant to be addictive in nature. They give the ability to hold more power than someone can do normally otherwise. that ofcourse will give a person more pleasure. So it's no suprise to see rand being possessive over it.

 

 

as for lews therin. yes he's right. the final battle will involve sealing the dark one. but ofcourse there will be a battle of armies, trollocs, dreadlords and the like. instead of rand wasting his armies on them he can have a guy like logain use the kal to smash the shadow forces aside whereas he can do the real job of sealing up the prison.

 

 

and let's not forget. the kal was made as a stop gap feature in age of legends. it was designed to hold the dark one and contain him and to give the forces of light plenty of time to come up with a good idea to seal him back. that plan was formed after the reckless plan LTT came up with. It was only when the access keys got lost did LTT finally went ahead with his initial plan without the women aes sedai.

 

but ofcourse, where's the fun in using the kal against the trollocs..the kal was destroyed not because of some hogwash that it was too powerful etc etc. it was destroyed simply because it was plot breaker.  with it rand or any ashaman could lay waste to the blight before any army even crosses out of the blight.

[tneva82]

 

And as for new CK. Nope. They can't create even simple angreal. And if they WOULD create Rand would just blow that up again. He didn't blow it by mistake. He deliberatly took it out because it needed to be destroyed. It should never have been created in a first place.

 

If the Choedan Kal was never created, saidin would have never gotten cleansed, a scenario which would have eventually destroyed the world again.

 

The Choedan Kal had the potential not only just for destruction but for tremendous good as well.

 

Yes that of course. And CK will be recreated when AOL comes again so that it can be used to cleanse the saidin again.

[Livia]

Whew, finally finished catching up with all these posts. Two thoughts:

 

1. royal line of Andor - For some reason, my immediate thought on this was of Elayne's babies. Although Rand is a prince, the bloodline  always descends through queens. Although there's nothing preventing The whole lot of them - Galad, Gawyn, Elayne, Morgase, Rand and the babies - playing a role in the DO's demise.

 

2. Of course this isn't just another roll of the Wheel of Time. That's why we're reading it. Rand might not "kill" the Dark One, but there will be something more final about his sealing/death/banishment than in the other turns of the Wheel. Evil is still possible after Frodo destroys the ring; there might always be a Sharkey back in the Shire to be defeated. But it's not the same battle afterwards, or we wouldn't have as much invested in it.

[Ged]

Seriously, destroying the CK was one of the most retarded not to mention, most un-manly (:P) things that has happened in the series.

 

In the face of the DO's power, giving up one of your few advantages has to be considered unimaginably dumb.

[Gokum]

 

And as for new CK. Nope. They can't create even simple angreal. And if they WOULD create Rand would just blow that up again. He didn't blow it by mistake. He deliberatly took it out because it needed to be destroyed. It should never have been created in a first place.

 

If the Choedan Kal was never created, saidin would have never gotten cleansed, a scenario which would have eventually destroyed the world again.

 

The Choedan Kal had the potential not only just for destruction but for tremendous good as well.

 

If the Choedan Kal hadn't been created, then saidin would never have been tainted either.

 

Why not you ask? Because then Latra Posae wouldn't have any plan to go with other than Lews Therin´s plan. LT knew that the brute force method wouldn't work, which means that he had some better plan, unfortunately he and his Hundred Companion's didn't have any female channelers to link with because of the schism, so they did probably change the original plan somewhat, and we all know how that ended.

 

So my theory on why the Choedan Kal isn't mentioned in the prophecies, there was no place and use for them to begin with. The only time they have been used for something useful was when Rand and Nynaeve fixed something the creation of CK had created.

 

Not destroying them would just leave them as a temptation for people, I mean, even if Rand would not use it someone (more) unstable could find it after his death. They wouldn't not even have to be evil, just mad enough to want to try something really stupid, for example see if it was possible to extinguish the sun with it, or ignite the atmosphere. Like LT said "No man should hold such Power..."

[Lambada]

But using saidar as well as saidin may well have tainted both (as speculated by the 'in-world' author of the Guide.

[Strykr017]

Does anyone else have a new perspective on Rand now that we know that Lews Therin actually was just a voice in Rand's head, and not the actual person?