Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[lilltempest]

Have you read the book yet to see who it plays out? You should do that before leaping about like this.  Also, last i checked, neither Jordan nor Sanderson were teenage girls. I'm not sure Egwene could be an example of a self insertion character.

 

Nope, I haven't read it but I've been grilling people for spoilers so I can see whether or not I actually want to spend my money on it. So far, the answer is no.

 

As for RJ or BS being teenaged girls...I'm not sure where you got the idea that an author has to be a teenage girl to write a Mary Sue, but that's not how it is. There are plenty of canon Mary Sues in fiction written by men, as well as non-teen women. Egwene and Cadsuane are two of them and from what I've learned of tGS, it seems Egwene has finally surpassed Ms. "I have god-mode ter'angreal to keep anyone from so much as sneezing on me". The funny part is that I'm not shocked in the least.

[fionwe1987]

I don't mind that she gets to do "something", but to defeat the Seanchan all by her self (essentially) while doped up on forkroot (when the Seanchan gave Rand and the Asha'man a run for their money, which makes them look pathetic) then follow that up by single-handedly taking out the Black Ajah (despite the fact that it was Pevara and that group who were doing a lot of legwork for it but bah, they don't matter once the Creator's chosen gets her hands into it, right?) is a bit too much. What next? Is she going to sprout wings and fly to prove that she is the Creator personified?

How the hell do you know Pevara and co. are not involved or even instrumental in finishing off the Black? All we have is that Egwene leads that purge, which has been foreshadowed since tDR.

If anyone of the major characters deserves to finish off the BA, it is Egwene. She has suffered the most in their hands, and she is the one who has placed her life in line to unite the Tower for the Last Battle. The Black Ajah are a blot in the organization she has worked hard to keep whole and healthy. She has swallowed her pride and her most natural instincts to hit out at Elaida so that she can succeed in uniting the Tower.

None of the Aes Sedai, not even the BA hunters, had the sense to see what Egwene saw. That Elaida does not matter, Ajah politics do not matter, all that matters is that the Tower is whole.

She stated in Chapter 2 that uniting the Tower is her goal, and I'm glad she did it.

The part that irritates me the most is the fact that, at the end of all this, she is still dead, bound, and determined to get Rand under her thumb so he jumps when she snaps her fingers and doesn't put a foot out of line unless she orders it. Throw in the fact that (this from another person who read the book) Rand is coming around to the fact that he "should" bend knee to Egwene and swear fealty to her, and there's no bloody reason for me to read it. All that stuff Moiraine said long ago - about him needing to be free to do what he must instead of being controlled (and yeah, I know she was lying as well, but still...) - is just crap. The point of all this seems to be that Rand must be on a leash (not a literal Seanchan leash, but a leash all the same) for Egwene to control or he'll screw it all up and bring about another Breaking. After all, the guy the Pattern chose to save the world is just a guy...and we all know guys can't do squat unless a woman tells them how to do it.

Rand is coming around to WHAT? His rant in the second chapter could have been written by you!

Even if he does somehow change his mind in the end, I doubt it is to kneel to her. I doubt she'd let him. Egwene remembers what Moiraine says, and agrees with it. She has stated again and again that she helps keep the Rebellion alive since it keeps AS from Rand's hair. She does not lie to herself. And Moiraine cannot lie.

 

Most importantly, do you seriously think Cadsuane is going to let anyone leash Rand? The whole idea is ludicrous.

 

In suppose this site is going to put up with more of your weird theories of Rand the slave boy?

[lilltempest]

Rand is coming around to WHAT? His rant in the second chapter could have been written by you!

Even if he does somehow change his mind in the end, I doubt it is to kneel to her. I doubt she'd let him. Egwene remembers what Moiraine says, and agrees with it. She has stated again and again that she helps keep the Rebellion alive since it keeps AS from Rand's hair. She does not lie to herself. And Moiraine cannot lie.

 

Most importantly, do you seriously think Cadsuane is going to let anyone leash Rand? The whole idea is ludicrous.

 

In suppose this site is going to put up with more of your weird theories of Rand the slave boy?

 

I'm not responding to the first part. Your Egwene worshiping and my Egwene dislike will never coincide and you know as well as I that we both resort to being uncivil once we start discussing it because, to me, you have no respect for any opinion of Egwene that does not mesh with yours. So, just between you and me, let's forget the "Egwene deserves to crap on the Dark One's head because she's suffered more than anyone else ever in the history of the world and is all too perfect" (yes, that was exaggerated, on purpose, and meant to be teasing rather than mean) and the "Egwene is an evil trollop and should be parked behind a desk for Tarmon Gai'don" (again, exaggerating and making fun of myself here), shall we?

 

As for the Rand stuff, yes his thoughts in the second chapter could've been written by me, but I was told that, by the end of the book, he changes his mind and is ready to bend knee. So there's another spoiler for you. One I'm sure you'll love.

 

As for what Cadsuane allows, yes I can see her allowing Egwene to control Rand. Everyone eventually bends to Egwene's will. Cadsuane will be no different if she survives long enough to meet her.

 

For your last comment, I'll say this...you have your opinions and I have mine. If you can't be respectful, then leave me alone. If you continue to taunt me, I'll just ignore you. I'm not starting a bloody battle over here with you just because you can't deal with someone not liking Egwene.

[fionwe1987]

I'm not responding to the first part. Your Egwene worshiping and my Egwene dislike will never coincide and you know as well as I that we both resort to being uncivil once we start discussing it because, to me, you have no respect for any opinion of Egwene that does not mesh with yours. So, just between you and me, let's forget the "Egwene deserves to crap on the Dark One's head because she's suffered more than anyone else ever in the history of the world and is all too perfect" (yes, that was exaggerated, on purpose, and meant to be teasing rather than mean) and the "Egwene is an evil trollop and should be parked behind a desk for Tarmon Gai'don" (again, exaggerating and making fun of myself here), shall we?

Very well.

As for the Rand stuff, yes his thoughts in the second chapter could've been written by me, but I was told that, by the end of the book, he changes his mind and is ready to bend knee. So there's another spoiler for you. One I'm sure you'll love.

No I don't love it. If it is true, and not someone's interpretation.

If I know Egwene, and I think I do, she'll not accept Rand bending knee to her.

As for what Cadsuane allows, yes I can see her allowing Egwene to control Rand. Everyone eventually bends to Egwene's will. Cadsuane will be no different if she survives long enough to meet her.

Right. All her characterization as bending to no one is all a lie. Cadsuane is going to bow to a teenager!  ::)

 

At most, I can see Rand thinking of letting Egwene help him make decisions because he questions his own sanity.

 

Can anyone else confirm this? Rand wants to bend knee to Egwene?

 

For your last comment, I'll say this...you have your opinions and I have mine. If you can't be respectful, then leave me alone. If you continue to taunt me, I'll just ignore you. I'm not starting a bloody battle over here with you just because you can't deal with someone not liking Egwene.

Oh yeah right. I must accept your taunts and jibes. But god forbid someone taunt you.

[supermanblue2001]

Demandred

 

We don't get confirmation of where he is however we do get some possible clues.

 

We know that Demandred is somewhere, but where? One of the few places left to him is Murandy or with the Borderlanders. I think we can eliminate the Borderlanders simply because I don't think he would compromise himself by entering Far Madding which is where the Borderland monarchs are currently residing.

 

Murandy, however, leaves us with some interesting possibilities. We know very little about King Roedran personally. We know that he is attempting to unite Murandy and that he did that in large part by hiring Talmanes and the Band of the Red Hand to scare lesser lords to his cause. In return for this service the Band was well paid and we find that Talmanes also received a gold tabac pipe. It's quite possible that Demandred has assumed the guise of Roedran or is more likely pulling Roedran's strings. What if a Finder were woven into the pipe?

 

We have learned from Elayne how a Finder works.

Finder:

   A weave of Spirit applied to an object that gives the weaver a sense of direction and distance to the object, much like the Warder bond. It will last for weeks on cloth or leather and indefinitely on metal.

 

This would give Demandred an easy way of finding Mat at a time of his choosing. An advantage that can't be understated with the last battle coming so soon. To make such a point of mentioning a tabac pipe, how it was acquired and combining that with our lack of knowledge about Demandred.... well I think it's certainly a possibility.

 

_{Definition of a Finder borrowed from encyclopaedia-wot.org}

[Muirenn]

Y'all!  Chill out!  NOW.  This is your official warning.  If this behaviour continues, I will restrict access to this forum for people who can't be civil.

 

Now get on with *nicely* discussing the shiney spoilers.

[lilltempest]

 

No I don't love it. If it is true, and not someone's interpretation.

If I know Egwene, and I think I do, she'll not accept Rand bending knee to her.

 

Excuse me? Egwene has wanted, from the beginning, to bring Rand down to his knees because she feels he's too arrogant and that he should be following someone else's (particularly her) lead. Not only would she accept him kneeling to her, I can see her demanding it. After all, if she believes kings and queens should bend knee to the Amyrlin, she certainly believes the Dragon Reborn should.

 

 Right. All her characterization as bending to no one is all a lie. Cadsuane is going to bow to a teenager!  ::)

 

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. With Cadsuane, everything is a battle of wills. It has been written that Egwene has a stronger will than anyone. Ever. Ergo, Cadsuane will bow to her if they meet.

 

Edited to remove any trace of sniping due to the mod post. If there's sniping, it won't be from me.

[fionwe1987]

Excuse me? Egwene has wanted, from the beginning, to bring Rand down to his knees because she feels he's too arrogant and that he should be following someone else's (particularly her) lead. Not only would she accept him kneeling to her, I can see her demanding it. After all, if she believes kings and queens should bend knee to the Amyrlin, she certainly believes the Dragon Reborn should.

If she has wanted to bring Rand to his knees then provide a direct quote.

As for her thinking he is too bigheaded and stubborn? Nynaeve shared that opinion too. Can we say Nyn wants Rand to bow to her as well?

And since when is the Dragon below Kings and Queens? When has Egwene said anything remotely indicating that she felt the Dragon Rebron was less than a King?

 I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. With Cadsuane, everything is a battle of wills. It has been written that Egwene has a stronger will than anyone. Ever. Ergo, Cadsuane will bow to her if they meet.

No, it has been written that Nynaeve has a stronger will than anyone, and Egwene herself says the same. You don't see Cadsuane bowing and scraping to her, do you?

 

[fionwe1987]

Can someone PM me the full dope on Verin's plan? I know the most important part, and want to know all about this. Can't wait till Wednesday.

[ajfurst]

Can someone who's actually read it confirm or deny whether Rand is thinking of swearing fealty/bending knee to Egwene by the end of the book? As opposed to contacting her for a working relationship - without him subserviant. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and I'll certainly be extremely disappointed if he bends knee to anyone, especially the Aes Sedai.

 

Common sense would dictate the Aes Sedai agree to follow Rand, but have a relationship like Bryne sets with the rebels in LOC - the one where he says they give the orders, but he decides how they are implemented. I hold slim hopes that before the Last Battle we see a similar situation with Rand and Egwene, that the Aes Sedai follow Rand's orders, but Egwene decides how they are implemented. Everytime the forces of the Light want to have everyone trying to guide Rand and have every decision turn into a committee meeting the Shadow must rub their hands with glee.

 

After the BA are purged, if I was one of the remaining forsaken / BA left I'd certainly try to get Egwene trying to rule it over Rand and fracture any chance at a clear chain of command that could give the Light a fighting chance.

[Datakim]

I too would like to know this?

 

I want Rand to be his own person and if he actually submits to Egwene or anyone I will be very disappointed. :(

 

Can anyone confirm or deny?

[DemandredFO]

I haven't read the book but I'm thinking the Egwene storyline can't be that simple.  I mean it took three books for Perrin to rescue Faile, when he had Asha'Man who could Travel.  it took one long book and the majority of another after Rand was Forsaken trained to kill Sammael.  So it can't be that simple and I dislike Egwene as much as any.

Besides, if it is as simple as Egwene beat off the Seanchan, don't you think the seanchan are more likely to sit down, figure things out and then send the hammer and the anvil, instead of just a hammer.  I haven't read the book, so maybe they can't but if they can they will try.

As for the Black Ajah, again, not having read the book but I recall from that testing that even with the Purge, some were still left.  I wonder if it was because she was a dreamer that the tests proved far more accurate.

[fionwe1987]

Turns out Rand does not decide to bend knee to Egwene. :)

 

As expected...

[lilltempest]

Turns out Rand does not decide to bend knee to Egwene. :)

 

As expected...

 

And how do you know this? Care to provide the spoiler you received? I'd be more than happy to learn that what I learned was incorrect, but what I was told (by two separate people) was that, at the end, Rand is deciding he needs to bend knee. From one of the two, I learned that it was Egwene he decided to bend knee to. What, exactly, did you hear?

[fionwe1987]

This is what I NBed to Deadsy in rafo...

 

By the way, does Rand make some idiotic decision to bend knee to Egwene? Just a yes or no please!

 

Thanks!

 

He replied:

No. and i don't know why the hell people keep thinking "know her anger" means that. egwene and rand have always fought. why would they quit fighting?

 

And I'm taking hinm at his word, because it would thematically make no sense for RJ to have Rand bend knee to Egwene (they have been built as equal and opposite, like saidin and saidar which they represent). More importantly, I'm sure someone would have posted such a major decision in this board.

 

Anyway, it is hardly likely that a chapter titles "Veins of Gold" ends with Rand deciding to bend knee to Egwene.

 

Maybe he merely decides he needs her help and that of the AS? That I can believe, and after Egwene is done with the Tower, it can indeed serve as the Dragon's right arm.

[lilltempest]

If she has wanted to bring Rand to his knees then provide a direct quote.

 

I've provided them before, on wotmania. I'm not busting my butt again so you can pretend the quotes of her wanting to "guide" him mean anything other than what they are, especially when we know all Aes Sedai see "guiding" as "dominating and controlling".

 

As for her thinking he is too bigheaded and stubborn? Nynaeve shared that opinion too. Can we say Nyn wants Rand to bow to her as well?

 

Nynaeve doesn't constantly insult Rand's intelligence and think he's too stupid to take two steps without tripping and falling on his face. Nynaeve has never, once, thought that he needs her to "guide" him so he doesn't do something too idiotic. She did, once, think things would be easier if Rand knelt to Egwene but I think she gave that up. Thankfully.

 

And since when is the Dragon below Kings and Queens? When has Egwene said anything remotely indicating that she felt the Dragon Rebron was less than a King?

 

I never said he was less than kings and queens, but she certainly doesn't see him as an equal. She doesn't even see him as equal to an Aes Sedai, given her attitude about how he should bow and scrape to them. Besides, Aes Sedai treat kings and queens as equal. The Amyrlin treats them as subjects. There's no reason to think Egwene would see Rand differently, especially given her consistent thoughts on guiding him and being angry that Aes Sedai are obeying him.

 

No, it has been written that Nynaeve has a stronger will than anyone, and Egwene herself says the same. You don't see Cadsuane bowing and scraping to her, do you?

 

Nynaeve doesn't have the strongest will. Egwene crushed her in Tel'aran'rhiod long ago and turned her into an insecure, stuttering girl. That Cadsuane did the same to her prior to tGS (I admit Nyn was not behaving like she feared Caddy in the first chapter and was happy about that) only proves that Cadsuane is also stronger willed than Nynaeve. At this point, it's a question of who is harder - Egwene or Cadsuane. My money goes on Egwene, if for no other reason that I don't believe she'll ever encounter anyone she doesn't squash or force to her will.

[lilltempest]

This is what I NBed to Deadsy in rafo...

 

By the way, does Rand make some idiotic decision to bend knee to Egwene? Just a yes or no please!

 

Thanks!

 

He replied:

No. and i don't know why the hell people keep thinking "know her anger" means that. egwene and rand have always fought. why would they quit fighting?

 

And I'm taking hinm at his word, because it would thematically make no sense for RJ to have Rand bend knee to Egwene (they have been built as equal and opposite, like saidin and saidar which they represent). More importantly, I'm sure someone would have posted such a major decision in this board.

 

Anyway, it is hardly likely that a chapter titles "Veins of Gold" ends with Rand deciding to bend knee to Egwene.

 

Maybe he merely decides he needs her help and that of the AS? That I can believe, and after Egwene is done with the Tower, it can indeed serve as the Dragon's right arm.

 

Thank you. Now I just have to message the two people I talked to and find out just why they were under the impression that Rand intends to bend knee in the next book...

[Deadsy]

IIRC, Rand had no thoughts on Egwene after Chapter 1.

[fionwe1987]

 

I've provided them before, on wotmania. I'm not busting my butt again so you can pretend the quotes of her wanting to "guide" him mean anything other than what they are, especially when we know all Aes Sedai see "guiding" as "dominating and controlling".

Right. The Aes Sedai are a hive mind, and Egwene has never been shown to think differently from them.  ::)

Nynaeve doesn't constantly insult Rand's intelligence and think he's too stupid to take two steps without tripping and falling on his face. Nynaeve has never, once, thought that he needs her to "guide" him so he doesn't do something too idiotic. She did, once, think things would be easier if Rand knelt to Egwene but I think she gave that up. Thankfully.  

Of course Nynaeve insults Rand. She only stopped lately since she saw that Rand has a hard shell immune to any kind of external influence from her, let alone her criticism.

Egwene was dealing with another Rand, and to that Rand, Nynaeve was just as insulting.

However, neither have once thought that Rand is unfit to save the world. Egwene even praises his progress to the Wise One's, right in front of Moiriane!

And yes, Egwene does think Rand needs guidance. And guess what, he does. So did Egwene, and she saw and accepted the need.

It isn't too difficult to know that Rand resists guidance (however valid his fears may be). But Egwene makes a clear difference between the kind of guidance she wants to offer and the kind the Aes Sedai or even the Wise One's would.

In her own mind she states that she is concerned about him as well, not just his effect on the world. She says she would think of his own good, unlike the AS. And Egwene is the last to think that any kind of servitude is good for anyone. Her time with the Senachan has left her with a violent hatred of any form of servitude.

 

I never said he was less than kings and queens, but she certainly doesn't see him as an equal. She doesn't even see him as equal to an Aes Sedai, given her attitude about how he should bow and scrape to them. Besides, Aes Sedai treat kings and queens as equal. The Amyrlin treats them as subjects. There's no reason to think Egwene would see Rand differently, especially given her consistent thoughts on guiding him and being angry that Aes Sedai are obeying him.

Again, quote please. Where does she want him to bow and scrape to them? She wants him to respect them. That is completely different from bowing or scraping to them!

As for Aes Sedai obeying him... why shouldn't she be angry? Elayne would be just as angry if her subjects were forced to obey him, and Mat and Perrin too are unlikely to take kindly to their close allies becoming Rand's.

This does not in any way mean that Egwene thinks Rand is less than her. She's demarcating their territory, as it were. The day you can show me she wants to control the Black Tower too, you can state that she thinks Rand is beneath her, and I'll agree.

Nynaeve doesn't have the strongest will. Egwene crushed her in Tel'aran'rhiod long ago and turned her into an insecure, stuttering girl. That Cadsuane did the same to her prior to tGS (I admit Nyn was not behaving like she feared Caddy in the first chapter and was happy about that) only proves that Cadsuane is also stronger willed than Nynaeve. At this point, it's a question of who is harder - Egwene or Cadsuane. My money goes on Egwene, if for no other reason that I don't believe she'll ever encounter anyone she doesn't squash or force to her will.  

I didn't know you had such a low opinion of Nynaeve's will. Egwene pointed out a major flaw in her character, and that did have Nyn stumped. She is far from quenched or broken though. Or do you think any spineless person can make the kind of sacrifices Nynaeve makes in KoD?

 

And Egwene has a way to go before she matches Cadsuane. Egwene lacks the assurance that Cadsuane has, and rightly so since she has barely a three-hundredth of Cadsuane's experience with life.

[Beren]

So, I have been thinking and thinking about this. Is the chapter titled "Bathed in Light" a Sheriam PoV?

[NorikoSedai]

To answer the question above, no.

 

About the whole Egwene vs Rand thing:

 

Personally I've never really gotten the Egwene haters (*but that's a thread for another time*)

 

In regards to the book, however..I'd really *highly* suggest actually reading it before making judgements as to what happens, or relying on other people's interpretations (however trusted they may be).

 

Things that do not happen:

 

1.  Rand does *not* bow to Egwene (or anyone else for that matter, really)

[Deadsy]

1.  Rand does *not* bow to Egwene (or anyone else for that matter, really)

Or even think about it.

[lilltempest]

1.  Rand does *not* bow to Egwene (or anyone else for that matter, really)

Or even think about it.

 

That pleases me, but I don't get how people could get such differing views on something like this. Perhaps you can explain these two comments:

 

"Rand will probably soon decide to bend his knee but not in this book (you'll know what i mean)."

 

and (this one is paraphrased because it was via phone call)

 

"By the end, it's clear that Rand realizes he has to bend knee to someone, be it Tuon or Egwene. After his meeting with Tuon, my money is on Egwene."

 

 

[Deadsy]

"Rand will probably soon decide to bend his knee but not in this book (you'll know what i mean)."

 

and (this one is paraphrased because it was via phone call)

 

"By the end, it's clear that Rand realizes he has to bend knee to someone, be it Tuon or Egwene. After his meeting with Tuon, my money is on Egwene."

 

I have absolutely no clue where anyone is getting that. Maybe someone deleted that chapter from my copy of the book.

[lilltempest]

I have absolutely no clue where anyone is getting that. Maybe someone deleted that chapter from my copy of the book.

 

Well, if I buy it, I want to make sure I get the same book you got instead of one with anything even vaguely implying that Rand will bend knee to Egwene!!    :P