Why Do None of the Characters Understand Balefire?

[OptimusPrime]

This leads to the reason why Rand and Moridin became connected.

[Mr Ares]

Thanks to those who changed my opinion, even Mr Ares.

Do I get a prize?

 

I'm still around to oppose you in other threads!

Then I hope you enjoy being wrong in those other threads.

[Arkelias]

Your prize is that I'm sticking around to make your life hell, Ares. 

 

Then I hope you enjoy being wrong in those other threads.

 

If I'm wrong I'll admit it.  In our current discussions I'm not, so I wouldn't hold your breath Ms. Aphrodite.

[magnutz]

Mr Ares is always wrong.

[mb]

Weaves can't effect the Weaver

Illusion & Invisibility are two exceptions.

 

[Beren]

Illusion & Invisibility are two exceptions.

 

 

Well, technically they don't directly affect the one who weaves them. They affect the area around the one who weaves them. Remember in Caemlyn in LoC when Rand hides Egwene. He ties the weave to the floor. It is not tied directly to the person.

 

As for Illusion, since touch is not fooled by it, I don't think that is directly tied to the one who weaves it but somehow to the space around them. I could be completely wrong here, but that's my take on it.

[Mr Ares]

Your prize is that I'm sticking around to make your life hell.

Make my life hell, eh? Let me know when you plan to start, I'd hate to miss it.

 

If I'm wrong I'll admit it.

Eventually.

In our current discussions I'm not

You are, you just haven't admitted it yet. Took a while here, it'll take a while there, but in time, you'll come around.

 

Mr Ares is always wrong.

I think you mean to say never wrong.

[magnutz]

 

Mr Ares is always wrong.

I think you mean to say never wrong.

 

Hmm. No. :)

[Mr Ares]

 

Mr Ares is always wrong.

I think you mean to say never wrong.

Hmm. No. :)

I think you mean to say yes. Don't worry, I'm sure you'll get there eventually.

[Arkelias]

Your prize is that I'm sticking around to make your life hell.

Make my life hell, eh? Let me know when you plan to start, I'd hate to miss it.

 

If I'm wrong I'll admit it.

Eventually.

In our current discussions I'm not

You are, you just haven't admitted it yet. Took a while here, it'll take a while there, but in time, you'll come around.

 

Mr Ares is always wrong.

I think you mean to say never wrong.

 

I didn't see you answer in the thread where I dubbed you Ms. Aphrodite for your abyssmal understanding of basic military tactics.  So, last I checked I was winning that one.  The difference between us is that I admit I'm wrong when it happens.  You pretend it never happened and abandon the threads where you end up looking like a fool.

 

 

Its's ok Ms. Aphrodite.  We still love you.

[Balefire to da face!]

*Stumbles back into the thread after missing 3 pages*

 

Well, I knew there was a reason I liked you Ark. Very rarely do you find someone on the internet who will actually change thier mind about something and...horror of horrors....admit they were wrong! *gasp*

 

By the by, has anyone noticed the very subtle hint that Rand may just get his hand back at the beginning of The Shadow Rising? It's either a hint, or an inside joke for Jordan, I think.

 

When they are interrogating Amico(the Black Ajah member who got stilled in thier escape at the end of TDR) Avi notices Amico has lost the ageless look. She asks them why and Nyn goes all mysterious Aes Sedai on her to hide the fact that neither of them have a clue why Amico has lost the ageless look. Her subterfuge goes as such....

 

TSR pg 118

 

"Stilling is not a thing anyone would choose to study, you understand," Nynaeve continued, "It is generally accepted to be irreversible. What makes a woman able to channel cannot be replaced once it is removed, anymore then a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence."

 

By this time we can be all but sure Jordan knew Nyn was going to Heal Siuan and Leane. And we can be reasonably sure he knew Rand was going to lose his hand by this time(we even have the dream from TDR showing a severed hand in Elayne's future...which I think probably referes to Rand even if it was blown off).

 

So either....

 

1. It was a coincidence.

 

2. Jordan was a sly little devil chuckling to himself as he wrote it.

 

3. It was a very subtle way of foreshadowing Rand being healed. While it is Egwene's PoV, we even have Nyn being the one saying the line. The gal who Healed Suian and Leane, and also the gal most likely to do it for Rand.

[richnewton82]

.

[richnewton82]

.

[Xarra]

I will point out (re-reading LoC) that Rand DOES know Balefire could bring stuff back - when the Maiden gets killed with the crossbow bolt, he thinks Balefire could solve everything (i.e. bring them back) and has an internal discussion with LT over how dangerous it is... And has even then decided never to use it again, obviously even to bring back women - it's not just Cad's influence. :)

[magnutz]

I think we just need to read the story and accept any "errors" as we find them. ;)

 

I do think Faile is mega-stupid (on a gargantuan scale) and Berelain a super-randy skank. Top that off with Perrin - a Pinnacle of Whimps.. Tight *ssed Nyneave, Elayne and Eggwene...  Hell, even Moiraine seems a happy-go-lucky character when compared to the Shrews from Emonds Field.

 

No give me Rand and Mat, those two are more fun than the rest. One semi-mad power-person and one schizoid Gambler can't go wrong! ;)

 

Balefire? Who needs to understand that?

[Mr Ares]

I didn't see you answer in the thread where I dubbed you Ms. Aphrodite for your abyssmal understanding of basic military tactics.

Check again. I replied before you posted this, and my understanding of tactics was never as bad as you imagined. Yours, on the other hand, seems rather lacking, but your ability to change the argument when you lose, and to ignore what other people say is as good as ever.

So, last I checked I was winning that one.

Being the last to post equals winning, does it? Well, that means I'm winning now, then.

The difference between us is that I admit I'm wrong when it happens.

No, you move the goalposts and try to claim you were arguing about something different. I don't lose arguments.

You pretend it never happened and abandon the threads where you end up looking like a fool.

I haven't abandoned any thread. Those replies take a while to write, so you might sometimes have to wait a bit for a response, but be patient. And I did reply a couple of hourse before you posted this, so you're behind the times.

 

"anymore then a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence."

The impossibility of Healing stilling is reinforced with a couple of examples of other things taken to be impossible. Will Nynaeve end up Healing death as well?

[Balefire to da face!]

"anymore then a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence."

The impossibility of Healing stilling is reinforced with a couple of examples of other things taken to be impossible. Will Nynaeve end up Healing death as well?

 

I mentioned this because of the way it is placed in the series. I noticed the interesting placement because I've been hearing Ark complain so much about the hand that it was on my mind as I've been rereading the series.

 

Stilling is not discussed pretty much at all in the first three books rather then to define it, "Stilling has happened so rarely that each novice was required to memorize each woman...." blah blah blah. The idea of actually Healing it never came up before.

 

Then in TDR it starts opening up more with Egwene's dreams. In TDR where we get the severed hand dream pertaining to Elayne. So if that is what the dream means, then we know Jordan knew about that eventual outcome for Rand way back then. Then at the beginning of TSR(the book in which Suian and Leane are stilled, thus we can be preeeeetty damn sure the eventual Healing was on Jordan's mind at the time) we get the first real discussion about stilling that we have in the books, along with the first mention of Healing it. And in that conversation, the first comparison we get is one stated by Nynaeve(the one who Healed stilling and is most likely to Heal Rand if it ever does happen) and it mentions Healing stilling as impossible as replacing a hand.

 

As I said, it could be a coinicidence, but it's also not me just pulling a random "stilling is as impossible as so and so" out of the books. I think there is signifigance in where and how it's place. I don't think Rand's hand will be Healed, I think it was a smirk moment for an author to throw in there....so we'll never know. I just found it interesting.

[Jemlin]

"anymore then a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence."

The impossibility of Healing stilling is reinforced with a couple of examples of other things taken to be impossible. Will Nynaeve end up Healing death as well?

 

I mentioned this because of the way it is placed in the series. I noticed the interesting placement because I've been hearing Ark complain so much about the hand that it was on my mind as I've been rereading the series.

 

Stilling is not discussed pretty much at all in the first three books rather then to define it, "Stilling has happened so rarely that each novice was required to memorize each woman...." blah blah blah. The idea of actually Healing it never came up before.

 

Then in TDR it starts opening up more with Egwene's dreams. In TDR where we get the severed hand dream pertaining to Elayne. So if that is what the dream means, then we know Jordan knew about that eventual outcome for Rand way back then. Then at the beginning of TSR(the book in which Suian and Leane are stilled, thus we can be preeeeetty damn sure the eventual Healing was on Jordan's mind at the time) we get the first real discussion about stilling that we have in the books, along with the first mention of Healing it. And in that conversation, the first comparison we get is one stated by Nynaeve(the one who Healed stilling and is most likely to Heal Rand if it ever does happen) and it mentions Healing stilling as impossible as replacing a hand.

 

As I said, it could be a coinicidence, but it's also not me just pulling a random "stilling is as impossible as so and so" out of the books. I think there is signifigance in where and how it's place. I don't think Rand's hand will be Healed, I think it was a smirk moment for an author to throw in there....so we'll never know. I just found it interesting.

 

I do think that Nyneave can heal his hand, but it will not happen with out some kind of logic jump.  Her ability to heal Stilling came from her experience with the A'dam and having Siuan and Leane wear the bracelets (it was through those she realized there was something there to be healed, like a wound).

 

At the present, she can not delve into a way to regenerate something that is gone...in this case, bone and nerve and muscle tissue.  Maybe Semihrage can give her that logic jump...or it will have to come by another means. 

[Blackhoof]

When it first happened, she tried Healing him and the wound closed over, will it still be possible to fully heal now that there is just a stump, as if the hand had never been?

[Mr Ares]

As I said, it could be a coinicidence, but it's also not me just pulling a random "stilling is as impossible as so and so" out of the books.

Well, the other example given is Healing death. And Rand is going to die...I get the feeling pretty much any example RJ gave, no matter how innocent, would be seized on in the same way. "Does this mean x will be Healed."

 

When it first happened, she tried Healing him and the wound closed over, will it still be possible to fully heal now that there is just a stump, as if the hand had never been?

Well, it is said you can't Heal something that has already been Healed....Of course it was said you couldn't Heal stilling! *Evil laughter*

[Wingendosering]

I can't believe this thread is still going...

 

Anyways, in regards to Nynaeve healing his hand, I doubt that's going to happen.  We've heard repeatedly that you can't heal something that's already been healed.  Since Rand now has a stump, I can't see it happening.

 

Rand losing his hand is alluded to all throughout these books.  In aCoS (I have no quote) Rand is actually thinking about how little he would care about anything at that moment.  He goes on to state that "even if he were to lose a hand" he couldn't bring himself to care...or something like that.

 

I just read it a couple days ago and it jumped out at me.

 

In the spirit of continuing admitting we were wrong, I am admitting that looking for Morgase held little to no logic.  It was simply a thought that occured to me while reading and now that I've proceeded well past that point on my reread idea's fallen flat.  I still think (like with Semi) he should have considered the possibility that she may be alive somewhere.  But actually looking for her would be stupid.

 

So there you have it.

[magnutz]

I can't believe this thread is still going...

 

Anyways, in regards to Nynaeve healing his hand, I doubt that's going to happen.  We've heard repeatedly that you can't heal something that's already been healed.  Since Rand now has a stump, I can't see it happening.

 

Rand losing his hand is alluded to all throughout these books.  In aCoS (I have no quote) Rand is actually thinking about how little he would care about anything at that moment.  He goes on to state that "even if he were to lose a hand" he couldn't bring himself to care...or something like that.

 

I just read it a couple days ago and it jumped out at me.

 

In the spirit of continuing admitting we were wrong, I am admitting that looking for Morgase held little to no logic.  It was simply a thought that occured to me while reading and now that I've proceeded well past that point on my reread idea's fallen flat.  I still think (like with Semi) he should have considered the possibility that she may be alive somewhere.  But actually looking for her would be stupid.

 

So there you have it.

 

I have come to this mind set: I read RJ's work and enjoy what I find enjoyable. Then I come on here and gripe about what I find not. RJ is not 100% spot on, not 100% on target. Or, perhaps his characters are not always 100% smart! I think that if you put Rand through that Hand-losing incident with Semirhage a hundred (100) times over he would have thought of using Balefire at least some of the times and perhaps even followed through on his thoughts on a few of those instances. This time, the time where RJ put Rand through the scene, he didn't think of using Balefire.

 

Then there are cases where main characters behave as if they are insane - idiots. Faile, being Saldean isn't a good explanation as to why she behaves like an idiot. And more. But on the whole (I think Preparation H works well on the...) everything works for me. Even if I leaf through the chapters about Eggwene [sic!] and Salidar, Nyneave and anything, quickly these days.

 

PS. I wonder what super character Lan sees in an ill-tempered shrew & totally impossible character Nyneave. Nyneave does have some good sides to her but mainly she's a total bi***. DS.

[Arkelias]

Check again. I replied before you posted this, and my understanding of tactics was never as bad as you imagined. Yours, on the other hand, seems rather lacking, but your ability to change the argument when you lose, and to ignore what other people say is as good as ever.

 

Obviously you didn't take your meds on the day you wrote this Ares.  It sounds rather hostile.  What have I told you about when you get angry?  Go and pick flowers and sing songs from the Sound of Music until you calm down.

 

In the thread you're talking about I beat you into the ground with logic, which your only response to was 'nuh uh- its like this because I say it is'.  You even went so far as to say yours was the 'only reasonable view'.  Hardly sounds like you making a point.  That sounds more like you acting as an instructor to your 'students', and then getting angry because we have the temerity to hold beliefs counter to your own.

 

You defended the most moronic ambush in history.  I explained why it was poor tactics, and nothing you said changed that or made it anything other than moronic.  Nice try though.

 

You say I change my arguments, and yet I've watched you flip flop like a dead chicken bleeding out whenever it will save you from admitting you're wrong.  Which, at least in the threads I've been involved in, happens a lot.

 

I admitted I was wrong here, because I was.  In other threads I haven't been.  Rather than have the good grace to accept my admission here you used it to try to undermine me elsewhere.  You have no tact, and no grace.  You do not discuss, you bully and bludgeon until people throw their hands up in frustration at your narrow minded views.

 

Your arguments are worse than bad where the 100,000 trolloc attack on Rand is concerned.  Still, nothing anyone says will ever change your mind. 

 

That's ok though Ms. Aphrodite.  I'm glad you have such an exaggerated opinion of yourself.  Your hubris is genuinely impressive, because I never believed anyone could maintain such delusion in the face of overwhelming opposition.

 

Anyone who asserts that numbers do not matter in war has no understanding of it.  You still maintain that, ergo your command of war is seriously lacking.  I know I haven't had the last word here, because I've never seen anyone as obsessed with getting the last word as you.  That includes myself, and believe me I do like getting in the last word.

[Beren]

Wow, I don't even know where this came from, but I am putting in a good word for Ares here.

 

He may get on your nerves with the "my view is always the right one" attitude, but he always gives good reasons for it.

[Nightstrike]

Wow, I don't even know where this came from, but I am putting in a good word for Ares here.

 

He may get on your nerves with the "my view is always the right one" attitude, but he always gives good reasons for it.

Always is definitely an exaggeration.  :)