Are Fades Blademasters?

[Lord Monty]

Does it ever say what level a fades skill is? In EotW a fade holds its own against Lan before being decapitated and later another kills 7 Sheirians at once. Is there any quotes stating they are equal to a blademaster or are they just hardcore shadowspawn?

[somathus]

It never really talks about a specific Fade's skills.  I think the only reason they are so effective is because of how quick they are.

 

Perrin killed one at the beginning on TDR.  Now way does he have enough skill with his axe to take out a blademaster at that point.

 

 

Hey, my first reply here!  I just came over from the now defunct wotmania and plan on lurking on here for the next couple of years.

[Bob T Dwarf]

They're strong.  They're fast.  They're relentless.  They can take untold punishment.  They don't have sense enough to lay down when they're dead.

 

That makes up for most of whatever they may lack in skill.

[moroten]

What really bugs me when it comes to fades are that they are supposed to be these really good fighters. And like you said, they took down 7 sheirians at once, trained soldiers. And one hold its own against Gaul, Bain, Chiad for some time in the ways untill Perrin crushes it with his hammer. But the point that is bugging me is how Perrin and Rand both take them down in the early novels without having spent that much time on training. In the jangai pass a fade kills 2+ Aiel, warriors who are pratcially bred with the spear cant take a fade down together but a farmer with a sword/axe and that has fought with it a couple of times does...

[mb]

The 7 Sheirians, that was off screen; we do not know how that situation went, though we know that the shadowspawn had 'inside' help and also that trollocs were involved.

 

The books do not tell the skill level of Myrddraal.

 

[magnutz]

Maybe they are different? The fades. One might be a smidge better than another at swinging its sword.. or are they cast in the same mould? Meaning that they are all the same in skill.

 

And I don't believe that the fades are "blade masters" but, as someone wrote earlier, they rely on speed, the evil infested swords, and total berserk-fury-never-give-up mind frame. ;)

[Balefire to da face!]

What really bugs me when it comes to fades are that they are supposed to be these really good fighters. And like you said, they took down 7 sheirians at once, trained soldiers. And one hold its own against Gaul, Bain, Chiad for some time in the ways untill Perrin crushes it with his hammer. But the point that is bugging me is how Perrin and Rand both take them down in the early novels without having spent that much time on training. In the jangai pass a fade kills 2+ Aiel, warriors who are pratcially bred with the spear cant take a fade down together but a farmer with a sword/axe and that has fought with it a couple of times does...

 

I think you are mistaken about Rand. I remember specifically that Perrin actually takes down a Fade before Rand does, and we don't see Rand most of TDR....so we don't actually see Rand take down a Fade until TSR, do we? I can't really remember.

 

Regardless, by the time Perrin takes down the Fade at the beginning of TDR he has had the ax for years most likely and trained with it(we are not sure how much, but it could have been a lot) for the events of tEotW and TGH. Also, he is such a fearsome warrior because, where as Rand has the flame and the void, Perrin has the pure blood frenzy of the wolf.

 

How much of the Fade's advantage in battle comes from it being able to strike fear into people with a look? Cause Perrin wasn't feeling a bit of it when he took that Fade down. Perrin's fighting ability is in his blood, he fights with the instinct and frenzy of a wolf. He also has the strength of just being a big guy. I never had a problem believing he took down the Fade....the Fade was probably surprised to have someone come at him so hard with no fear at all.....

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

when someone asked if all fades are cast from the same mold, the answer is no. in one of the early books they are described as throwbacks to the human stock used to create the trollocs. ill follow up with a direct quote as soon as i find it.

 

my understanding of this is that a fade is actually born of two trollocs, through whatever genetic sequence would make this possible. the pasty skin, eyeless face, and ability to disappear into shadows probably comes from the mutation of human dna allowing them to be bred with goats, bears, pigs, and birds, which created the trollocs, then when two trollocs mate and the result has a human gene from each parent a myddrall is born.

 

please dont hesitate to correct me or add to this if i forgot something or missed the mark completely!

[Phariah]

They're strong.  They're fast.  They're relentless.  They can take untold punishment.  They don't have sense enough to lay down when they're dead.

 

That makes up for most of whatever they may lack in skill.

agreed

[Charlz Guybon]

Does it ever say what level a fades skill is? In EotW a fade holds its own against Lan before being decapitated and later another kills 7 Sheirians at once. Is there any quotes stating they are equal to a blademaster or are they just hardcore shadowspawn?

Pretty close to a blademaster's skill if not there I'd say.

[Mr.Big]

What really bugs me when it comes to fades are that they are supposed to be these really good fighters. And like you said, they took down 7 sheirians at once, trained soldiers. And one hold its own against Gaul, Bain, Chiad for some time in the ways untill Perrin crushes it with his hammer. But the point that is bugging me is how Perrin and Rand both take them down in the early novels without having spent that much time on training. In the jangai pass a fade kills 2+ Aiel, warriors who are pratcially bred with the spear cant take a fade down together but a farmer with a sword/axe and that has fought with it a couple of times does...

I think that it comes down to Rand and Perrin being ta'veren and being able to pull off stunts other mere mortals can't.

[Thorn]

There's also the fact that a single cut from a Fade's blade is deadly, and a Fade's stare is horrifying. I severely doubt that Fades are generally Blademasters, though.

 

There's also the question of how much variation there is between Fades. It's implied that they're almost clonelike in their similarity with each other.

 

How long does it take Lan to take out that Fade in EOTW? One thing we know about blademaster vs blademaster fights is that they generally take awhile. 

[Mr.Big]

There's also the fact that a single cut from a Fade's blade is deadly, and a Fade's stare is horrifying. I severely doubt that Fades are generally Blademasters, though.

 

There's also the question of how much variation there is between Fades. It's implied that they're almost clonelike in their similarity with each other.

 

How long does it take Lan to take out that Fade in EOTW? [glow=red,2,300]One thing we know about blademaster vs blademaster fights is that they generally take awhile[/glow].  

Tell me about it,I thought the fight between Galad and the Lord General in the KoD prologue would never end.If I had to read another "Blade of Grass Gently Caresses the Tiger's Hindquarters" during another fight I would go madder than Lews Therin Kinslayer himself. ;D

[Thorn]

 

Tell me about it,I thought the fight between Galad and the Lord General in the KoD prologue would never end.If I had to read another "Blade of Grass Gently Caresses the Tiger's Hindquarters" during another fight I would go madder than Lews Therin Kinslayer himself. ;D

 

Hah! I like those parts :P

 

On review, it looks like that fight (the one between Lan and a Fade in EOTW) doesn't take very long, no more than a minute or two -- long enough for Moiraine to get off a few fireballs, the kids to stab some trollocs and get scared spitless, but not long enough for much to happen beyond that. So Fades are good enough that Lan doesn't just take them out in seconds, but they aren't good enough that the fights drag out to exhaustion, as seems to happen with Blademasters (Galad / Lord Captain Commander fight being a good example).

[moroten]

What really bugs me when it comes to fades are that they are supposed to be these really good fighters. And like you said, they took down 7 sheirians at once, trained soldiers. And one hold its own against Gaul, Bain, Chiad for some time in the ways untill Perrin crushes it with his hammer. But the point that is bugging me is how Perrin and Rand both take them down in the early novels without having spent that much time on training. In the jangai pass a fade kills 2+ Aiel, warriors who are pratcially bred with the spear cant take a fade down together but a farmer with a sword/axe and that has fought with it a couple of times does...

 

I think you are mistaken about Rand. I remember specifically that Perrin actually takes down a Fade before Rand does, and we don't see Rand most of TDR....so we don't actually see Rand take down a Fade until TSR, do we? I can't really remember.

 

Regardless, by the time Perrin takes down the Fade at the beginning of TDR he has had the ax for years most likely and trained with it(we are not sure how much, but it could have been a lot) for the events of tEotW and TGH. Also, he is such a fearsome warrior because, where as Rand has the flame and the void, Perrin has the pure blood frenzy of the wolf.

 

How much of the Fade's advantage in battle comes from it being able to strike fear into people with a look? Cause Perrin wasn't feeling a bit of it when he took that Fade down. Perrin's fighting ability is in his blood, he fights with the instinct and frenzy of a wolf. He also has the strength of just being a big guy. I never had a problem believing he took down the Fade....the Fade was probably surprised to have someone come at him so hard with no fear at all.....

 

Yes Rand doesnt take down his first fade untill tSR where he takes one down in the early part of the book, even so I doubt that he spent most of the travelling time between tSR and tDR training the sword. He is still somewhat of a rookie there.

 

When it comes to Perrin we have a statement or a pov from him where it states he only toyed with the, fighting with it the way he imagined fighting would be like, which turned out to be something completly else when Lan started teaching him. We dont know how long Perrin has had the axe(or atlest I dont remember) but we can guess he wasnt much younger than what he is now, or I doubt that the blacksmith would have given him the axe, would have been reckless to have given it to a child.

Yes Perrin is a big guy with brutal force but seem to lack agility, something that fades have tons of.

 

You are prolly right about it being his blood/wolf thingy and taveren, but i just hate it that some of the shadows greatest warriors are beaten by barely trained teenagers, yet manages to beat Aiel that has spent most of their lives with the spear. Even Lan states that to Rand just before the siege of Carhienen(or however that is spelled), that Rand is very close to Blademaster level but that Couladin would still be a hard match for him since he has spent time with the spear his whole life. Now we can kinda guess that Couladin was very skilled warrior due to Mats PoV, but Lan knows fighting and he knows aiel and he doesnt mention the skill of Couladin, he points out the skill of an Aiel, that Rand would be hard pressed against one, yet 2 aiel cant bring down a fade(and aiel dont fear death), but Rand manages early on in tSR when he is far away from the skill of a blademaster.

[WWWwombat]

I definitely think the only reason that Perrin was able to take that Fade in TDR was because he went Young Bull on his ass.

[tjtalbert]

I believe a fade that Rand faced during the fall of the Stone had a Heron Mark blade.

 

Tim

[OptimusPrime]

If Shaidar was a blademaster I wouldnt mind, but no way did I ever get the impression that theyre as good as blademasters. If a fade had a Heron Mark blade Id say he picked it up, rather than gained it the conventional way

[Al Thor93]

I don't think that Fades are blade masters because they work for the shadow and they don't name people of the shadow blade masters; or at least we never hear about any being named such. I do however feel that they are something similar along with having the "luck of the dark one."

[OptimusPrime]

I don't think that Fades are blade masters because they work for the shadow and they don't name people of the shadow blade masters; or at least we never hear about any being named such. I do however feel that they are something similar along with having the "luck of the dark one."

 

Luck and swordsmanship arent generally connected.  My point regarding the fade with a Heron Mark blade was supposed to mean that if a Fade had a Heron Mark blade, it wouldnt really mean its a blademaster for definite at all.

 

I think the discussion is looking more at skill levels rather than what people are called. Whether or not someone is human, shadowspawn or Finnland resident, Light-serving, Darkfriend or loose cannon, a blademaster is a blademaster in this discussion.

[Mr. Micawber]

The Fades might look identical, but they're clearly not, otherwise the Shadow would have zero hierarchy between the Chosen/Dreadlords and the Myrddraal.

 

I think that the answer is that some Eyeless are better than others - but all of them share the lightning reflexes, the gaze of fear, and the ability to fade with the Shadow.

 

Also, I think that the fight between Galad and Valda lasted a lot longer in his mind and in the writing than it actually did. RJ listed a ton of forms - a lot more than he did for any of Rand's fights, or even Lan's in NS where he's up against 6. My guess is that probably *didn't* take that long, probably not that much longer than the Turak fight, it's just that RJ made this one a lot more detailed and suspenseful than any of the others.

[OncetheHeron]

Just like to point out that KOD gives us a glimmer of how blademasters are named. They have to impress a panel of five existing blademasters or kill one in a swordfight. I doubt that a Fade could pass the panel, but one could definatelty acquire the heron by defeating a blademaster (just like Rand and Galad). Though why a Myddrall would bother with the title when they already have so many is beyond me.

Skill wise; a Myddrall may be a tough fight but I doubt they practice the forms or use those fancy stance names. Aren't their Shayol Ghol forged blades especially dangerous or something? I think that should qualify as cheating as far as the Blademaster title goes.

 

[moroten]

Just like to point out that KOD gives us a glimmer of how blademasters are named. They have to impress a panel of five existing blademasters or kill one in a swordfight. I doubt that a Fade could pass the panel, but one could definatelty acquire the heron by defeating a blademaster (just like Rand and Galad). Though why a Myddrall would bother with the title when they already have so many is beyond me.

Skill wise; a Myddrall may be a tough fight but I doubt they practice the forms or use those fancy stance names. Aren't their Shayol Ghol forged blades especially dangerous or something? I think that should qualify as cheating as far as the Blademaster title goes.

 

 

The blademaster title is irrelevant, only used as a comparison in this topic, what we want to know is the skill of fades. We know, or atleast can guess, that fades arent all identical judging by how they react when they are gonna get the wonder girls when they get trapped on their way to Tear. All 3 react in a different way when they feel saidar being channeled.

[Balefire to da face!]

Just like to point out that KOD gives us a glimmer of how blademasters are named. They have to impress a panel of five existing blademasters or kill one in a swordfight. I doubt that a Fade could pass the panel, but one could definatelty acquire the heron by defeating a blademaster (just like Rand and Galad). Though why a Myddrall would bother with the title when they already have so many is beyond me.

Skill wise; a Myddrall may be a tough fight but I doubt they practice the forms or use those fancy stance names. Aren't their Shayol Ghol forged blades especially dangerous or something? I think that should qualify as cheating as far as the Blademaster title goes.

 

 

The blademaster title is irrelevant, only used as a comparison in this topic, what we want to know is the skill of fades. We know, or atleast can guess, that fades arent all identical judging by how they react when they are gonna get the wonder girls when they get trapped on their way to Tear. All 3 react in a different way when they feel saidar being channeled.

 

Can you imagine a Fade taking time out of it's busy day of raping and pillaging to do anything as mundane as practicing the sword? I just don't see it.

 

I think the people who attribute basically all of whatever skill they have to natural ability, rather then effort, practice, whatever are dead on. They use thier speed, gaze, and just pure indimidation to get by. I would say it's kind of apples and oranges to try to compare them to the skill level of human fighters. Yes, the Fades are using swords so that it comparible, but other then that they are different from humans physically so it's hard to compare. To sum up I think it comes down to Fades being naturally more dangerous on a purely physical level, but the time and effort that humans put into mastering the sword puts them over the top.

 

The series's fighting record shows that Fades, while being formidable and very slippery are not a match for blademasters, and can be taken down by fighters of a stature less then a blademaster.

 

 

[Mr.Big]

One thing I'm wondering is how effective Perrin will be against Fades with a friggin' hammer?