Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[striker]

The way that I recall for Tuon talking about any weaving would be when she has the bracelet on one of the AS that was mouthing off to both her and Mat, and using their power to attempt to do something to Mat with Saidar but said that the weaves vanished when they came close to him.

[FanoLan]

Binding the nine moons to serve him - been thinking on this one.  Does Rand have a Warder?  Sounds like that could be useful for the DR.

[saidarisnowtainted]

i think that the last book is entitled MoL because by that point, the world as randland knows it will be in a state of perpetual darkness.  the parocess appears to have begun with the completely overcast sky.

 

thoughts?

[saidarisnowtainted]

I've suspected for quite some time that Bashere is Demandred.  What are your thoughts?

[coteaz]

Bashere has smiled has he not? where as demandred does not?

[OsaroLJ]

Well, some interesting speculation throughout this thread, so I'm going to post some of my own  ;D  Long-time WoT addict, first read started in '95 and I've waited anxiously for every book since ACoS.  Cannot even estimate the number of re-reads, but seems like at least once a year all the way through (some sections skimmed of course).  Have not posted much on any board, but frequently lurk and love the (civil) debates back and forth on some of the issues - though some positions make no sense from time to time though.  On to the speculation ....

 

Although we received lots of the Rand story arc in tGS, I expect we'll get some more in ToM.  Specifically, I think we'll see the fulfillment of the second time Perrin has to be there to save Rand - this time from the hands of those at the Black Tower.  I think this capture will include some of the escaped/loose BA as well, possible some captured/bonded AS.  The Amyrlin will also prob be involved as a result of the AS emissaries having gone missing and Rand will know her anger for leaving the BT basically unsupervised and allowing it to turn into a sanctuary for evil male channelers.  The Two Rivers recruits that were briefly mentioned (Taim harvesting berries or some such) will also prob play a key role in assisting Perrin with the rescue.

 

Mat will get some good info from Birgitte about the ToG and head off with Thom and Noal to circle thrice 'round the gleaming, featureless structure - bearing items that make music to dazzle, fire to blind and iron to bind.  Olver's role?  Hmmmm - not a strong opinion on that one but maybe he'll sneak in and save the day after Noal is killed off/sacrificed within the ToG?  Tough negotiations follow (little foreshadowing in Mat's deal with the Seafolk Windfinders in EbDar) and the rescue party along with Moiraine are released.  Either Noal's long history and vast collection of memories or sharing the experience of Olver's yet to come adventures will be a part of the bargain - possibly both.

 

Hate to burst your bubble, but Perrin already saved Rand the second time. It just didn't take the shape you probably thought it would. Lets just say that without Tam, TGS would have been the last book of the series ending as "and Shaitan howled with glee as his nemesis, the ill-fated Dragon, destroyed the entire Seanchan army and the rest of the world. The end." Bashere is the next big question mark.

[saidarisnowtainted]

When i read the book, a lightbulb went off in my head and i was certain that BS/RJ were pointing with giant arrows at who Messana is.  However, at the moment i cannot recall the name--she is prominent in Egwene's arc.  I believe i am referring to the white sitter that is a tad too emotional and who, as i recall, regularly wears dresses of, and/or containing different colors.  This would explain seeing Messana in white (she's posing as a white) but it would also explain seeing her in a bronz-fringed dress, etc.

 

Also, as a sitter, she stood to raise Elaida and could have had a hand in deposing Suane in the first instance.  

 

In reading the first interaction btwn Egwene and the white sitter, i got the impression that the sitter was unfriendly to her.  was this when they were eating walnuts?  maybe not.  that may have been later.  We have Egwene argue her schtick about the divisions in the tower--then the white sitter asks Egwene what she would do to fix the situation and Egwene presents a good idea to not only the sitter, but to the other whites present.  

 

RIght then, the white sitter got really nice and cozy with Egwene and tried to get close to her.  I found that suspicious--because what i saw happening was Messana reacting in suprprise because it was a good idea and then she was thinking "oh crap, this girl's idea might work!  I obviously underestimated her, didnt plan for this, and i'm about to get another visit from Shadar Haran if i screw my assignment up.

 

Messana has to act fast and stop Egwene from talking to anyone else ASAP.  The easiest thing to do would be to help her escape from the Tower RIGHT AWAY.  However, the plan she formulates is flawed because, being a selfish baddy (like Elaida's previous BA Keeper that tried to tempt Egwene with escape)Messana would not expect that Egwene wanted to STAY imprisoned.

 

So, what's the next thing we see happen?  Egwene's cleaning out the fireplaces in the kitchen and Laras tries to help her escape.  Now I think Laras' affiliations are irrelevant here because either she's a DF or was told to do it eithe rdirectly or indirectly by the white sitter/Messana on a legit order from an Aes Sedai Sitter.

 

But Egwene refuses to leave.  

 

Now, i think i recall that next time we see the white sitter is at Elaida's dinner and i think that she revealed an element of surprise at seeing Egwene (perhaps becuase she expected that Egwene would have fled?).  I also suspected that the white sitter had something to do with that dinner meeting--and had some expectations, but they were screwed by by Egwene being there and depended on Egwene no longer being there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

I admit I had thought of this at one point, in book 6, when Bashere just shows up out of nowhere, shortly thereafter he presents a captured Mazrim Taim...  But the mask of mirrors would have to be uberpowerful and to be honest I just don't see it happening without any of the Asha'man or Cadsuane's ter'angreal letting on.  I don't want to crap on your supposition but (as a number of posters on these forums have mentioned)  the author has stated we have not yet seen Demandred in his alter ego state...

 

Once I attempted to explain that perhaps RJ was not above lying to protect his story arcs....  I was immediately rebuked...  RJ's word (to those who like to post on these forums), is doctrine.  To them, he might as well have channeled Spirit into his cane and spoken the Three Oaths.

 

[FanoLan]

Hate to burst your bubble, but Perrin already saved Rand the second time. It just didn't take the shape you probably thought it would. Lets just say that without Tam, TGS would have been the last book of the series ending as "and Shaitan howled with glee as his nemesis, the ill-fated Dragon, destroyed the entire Seanchan army and the rest of the world. The end." Bashere is the next big question mark.

 

For some reason, I doubt the integrity of your initial statement but will not address it further.

 

Regarding the speculation presented, please clarify your statement.  It seems like you believe that Min's viewing was fulfilled when Cads/Nyn retrieved Tam from Western Ghealdan/Amadicia (where he was camped near the Jehannah Road with Perrin)and brought him back to Tear, ultimately leading to Veins of Gold.  Is that a correct assessment?  Just for reference, the text of Min's viewing:

 

"When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

 LoC Ch. 46, EWOT - Prophecies - Min's Visions.

 

Seems to me that Perrin would have to be a little more personally involved to fulfill this one.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

"When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

 LoC Ch. 46, EWOT - Prophecies - Min's Visions.

 

 

Seems to me that Perrin would have to be a little more personally involved to fulfill this one.

 

If so, that's going to be the Morgase reveal.  That will not end well for Rand unless Perrin brings Morgase to stop Gawyn from giving Rand the old 'Hummingbird Kisses the Honeyrose'.

[Declan]

too bad Rand would just slap upside the head with a flow of air. i dont think he has much to fear from Gawyn.

[FanoLan]

When i read the book, a lightbulb went off in my head and i was certain that BS/RJ were pointing with giant arrows at who Messana is.  However, at the moment i cannot recall the name--she is prominent in Egwene's arc.  I believe i am referring to the white sitter that is a tad too emotional and who, as i recall, regularly wears dresses of, and/or containing different colors.  This would explain seeing Messana in white (she's posing as a white) but it would also explain seeing her in a bronz-fringed dress, etc.

 

Also, as a sitter, she stood to raise Elaida and could have had a hand in deposing Suane in the first instance.  

 

In reading the first interaction btwn Egwene and the white sitter, i got the impression that the sitter was unfriendly to her.  was this when they were eating walnuts?  maybe not.  that may have been later.  We have Egwene argue her schtick about the divisions in the tower--then the white sitter asks Egwene what she would do to fix the situation and Egwene presents a good idea to not only the sitter, but to the other whites present.  

 

RIght then, the white sitter got really nice and cozy with Egwene and tried to get close to her.  I found that suspicious--because what i saw happening was Messana reacting in suprprise because it was a good idea and then she was thinking "oh crap, this girl's idea might work!  I obviously underestimated her, didnt plan for this, and i'm about to get another visit from Shadar Haran if i screw my assignment up.

 

Messana has to act fast and stop Egwene from talking to anyone else ASAP.  The easiest thing to do would be to help her escape from the Tower RIGHT AWAY.  However, the plan she formulates is flawed because, being a selfish baddy (like Elaida's previous BA Keeper that tried to tempt Egwene with escape)Messana would not expect that Egwene wanted to STAY imprisoned.

 

So, what's the next thing we see happen?  Egwene's cleaning out the fireplaces in the kitchen and Laras tries to help her escape.  Now I think Laras' affiliations are irrelevant here because either she's a DF or was told to do it eithe rdirectly or indirectly by the white sitter/Messana on a legit order from an Aes Sedai Sitter.

 

But Egwene refuses to leave.  

 

Now, i think i recall that next time we see the white sitter is at Elaida's dinner and i think that she revealed an element of surprise at seeing Egwene (perhaps becuase she expected that Egwene would have fled?).  I also suspected that the white sitter had something to do with that dinner meeting--and had some expectations, but they were screwed by by Egwene being there and depended on Egwene no longer being there.

 

 

I think you're referring to Ferane - the Tower White Sitter.  Interesting thoughts and she has appeared somewhat outside the norm for her chosen Ajah, but that's not always a fait accompli for BA-ness.  Ferane is also the head of the White Ajah (First Reasoner?) and according to an earlier POV from Alviarin, only Galina was black among the Tower Ajah heads.  

 

There was a BA (Miyasi?) at that encounter with the cracking of walnuts who likely reported the outcome to Mesaana.

[FanoLan]

"When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

 LoC Ch. 46, EWOT - Prophecies - Min's Visions.

 

 

Seems to me that Perrin would have to be a little more personally involved to fulfill this one.

 

If so, that's going to be the Morgase reveal.  That will not end well for Rand unless Perrin brings Morgase to stop Gawyn from giving Rand the old 'Hummingbird Kisses the Honeyrose'.

 

I think we'll see the Morgase reveal/reunion in Caemlyn when Perrin's group gets there, but before the necessary "being-there to prevent/minimize bad things happening to Rand."  I'm still of the opinion this is going to revolve around the BT/Taim's faction/BT rent in fire and blood/Bending knee to the unstained (read cleansed, White) Tower and possibly learning that universal ash'a'aman lesson from Cads.  Just a perfect parallel for the first Perrin-to-the-resuce event which, of course, involved Rand's capture/kidnapping by AS - prompted by Forsaken, carried out in part by BA.

[elec1cele]

too bad Rand would just slap upside the head with a flow of air. i dont think he has much to fear from Gawyn.

 

I don't know about the nothing to fear part.  With his issues with nausea on reaching for the OP now causing him to collapse it doesn't seem like he could hit him with a flow of air before he had a sword in his gut(unless he was already holding the OP). I am also not sure how long he would last in a fight with Gawyn.  He says himself he won't be much of a match for blademaster(which Gawyn obviously is) with only one hand. 

[stormcrow]

ToM can't end with Moraine being rescued unless the author plans her to have a relatively minor role in TG. She doesn't know how to Travel, she will be with Mat for a while. And even if she immediately goes to find Rand, Rand is never really in one place long enough for anyone to just find.

 

stop Gawyn from giving Rand the old 'Hummingbird Kisses the Honeyrose'.

Unless Gawyn is Demandred in disguise, Gawyn will be quickly put in his place. But, knowing Rand, Rand might forget he can even channel and try to dual Gawyn. Rand always finds some woolheaded excuse not to use the OP. It's actually annoying now.

[elec1cele]

Tuon is a Damane trainer, she has definitely worked long enough.

 

Tuon does train damane but as a hobby not as a job like the Sul'dam do.  If they work with damane everyday and some of them cannot be collared it seems unlikely to me that Tuon could be.

[karehiro]

Gawyn's the last person Rand should fear from.  Especially since now Rand doesn't carry guilt over thinking he led to Morgase's death, he likely won't be as lenient in forgiving Gawyn's tantrums and quit treating him with kid gloves.  The only thing Gawyn would accomplish in trying to assassinate Rand is getting himself killed.

[Crossroad]

Question People:

 

Does Rand throw up because of the OP or because of his mental instability?

 

His power now is far beyond the WT or BT so neither heads could do anything if he really wanted to take them from the field, and both Egwene and Tasim don't have a clue how powerful he is.

 

Who thinks Rands going to get trapped once again?

 

I hope not I'm getting sick of that.

[Luckers]

Rand's sickness is caused by the link between himself and Moridin, which is actived in the process of siezing saidin (and maybe releasing too, I'm not sure on that so don't quote me).

[DafyddNZ]

Does anyone else think Noal is Jaim Farstrider?

I've had that thought almost since we met the guy.

[Luckers]

It's essentially certain.

[benr]

Gawyn's the last person Rand should fear from.  Especially since now Rand doesn't carry guilt over thinking he led to Morgase's death, he likely won't be as lenient in forgiving Gawyn's tantrums and quit treating him with kid gloves.  The only thing Gawyn would accomplish in trying to assassinate Rand is getting himself killed.

 

Gawyn will be won over by GandhiRand.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

"Gandhi"Rand????!!!!

 

Really???You think Rand will now follow the path of non-violence??Seesh just because he had a laugh at the end of the book doesnt mean he will become a happy optimist.He is the same as ever except the fact that now he knows what he is fighting for..Stop comparing him to a kind-hearted superman.

[decrepid dragon]

umm, but he is a kind hearted superman. Just he's not afraid to kick some ass. As in kick it till it dies. He just makes sure its necessary now (presumably. I mean he could still be all dark and evil in te next book, the evidence just points ridiculously in favour of him being all happy and much more like your average fantasy saviour.).

 

Besides, I like benr's GhandiRand name

[stormcrow420]

Towers of Midnight = Daved Hanlon gets his.