has egwene done the nasty?

[Ashaman Kovan]

When a dream walker enters another person's dream fully, the dreamer has full power over them.

 

I think that's only true if the person and/or the dreamwalker have strong feelings of love or hate towards each other. Could be wrong though.

[lordofsoup]

this is a really odd conversation

[benr]

Plus Berelain, as the First of Mayenne, really goes against Mat's love for the common girl.  Of course, that's one of the things that makes his relationship with Tuon ironic - and fun.

[lordofsoup]

just like with tylin             

[ROB_88]

The Two Rivers do believe in pre-marital sex. When Rand insists that he marry Aviendha, she educates a little about Two Rivers customs. According to Egwene, if you were betrothed to the guy all you had to do was ask your mother's permission to do it. Aviendha says that Egwene told that she was planning to ask her mother's permission to do it with Rand.

 

the education on Two Rivers custom was about how you have to ask for permission to get married, not about sex.

pre-marital sex was heavily punished as we see when Rand thinks about a time when 2 people were caught doing it ina barn, got smacked around, forced to get married a moth later despite normal customs of waiting a year, and still were so sore from the beating that they could hardly sit down during the first week of marriage

[Kaznen]

Mat won't hook up with a dude's wife but as far as his "type" goes, he's not that picky.

 

And I don't think Egwene and Gawyne would of had sex in a inn's private dining room.  Their romanatic ideas were too lofty for Egwene to hike up he skirts and bend over the table while Gawyne drops his pants.

 

Mat would have done it, I could see Nyneave and Perrin giving it thought, and Min would be up for it (Rand is rather prudish), but Egwene would be horrified at the idea.

[MikeRiley]

When a dream walker enters another person's dream fully, the dreamer has full power over them.

 

I think that's only true if the person and/or the dreamwalker have strong feelings of love or hate towards each other. Could be wrong though.

 

Egwene got trapped in a clan chief's dream and she was stuck playing with a doll he gave her in it until another dream walker came and got her.

 

 

Also, Mat has a dislike for nobles and Berelain is a queen. He would have stayed as far from her as possible.

[Ashaman Kovan]

When a dream walker enters another person's dream fully, the dreamer has full power over them.

 

I think that's only true if the person and/or the dreamwalker have strong feelings of love or hate towards each other. Could be wrong though.

 

Egwene got trapped in a clan chief's dream and she was stuck playing with a doll he gave her in it until another dream walker came and got her.

 

 

Also, Mat has a dislike for nobles and Berelain is a queen. He would have stayed as far from her as possible.

 

Yes. But I think that was only due to her inexperience. Once they've become experienced enough the only way they can become trapped is the afore mentioned circumstances. I'm pretty sure.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Also, Mat has a dislike for nobles and Berelain is a queen. He would have stayed as far from her as possible.

What about Tylin?

[Gentled Ben]

The one he kept saying "No" to and trying to avoid like that poor cat in the old Pepe LePew cartoons? What about her? Her relationship with him was little short of rape, and if the genders had been reversed, I think most people would have found the situation offensive.

[MikeRiley]

Little short of? It was.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Little short of? It was.

Yet he looks back on her fondly.

 

To call it rape is too simplistic.

[nnokwoodeye]

Little short of? It was.

Yet he looks back on her fondly.

 

To call it rape is too simplistic.

 

It was rape. She even sent him the customary post-rape gifts. When Elayne saw that she misunderstood and was angry at him up until he explained that he was the one that was raped

[lgautam]

Little short of? It was.

Yet he looks back on her fondly.

 

To call it rape is too simplistic.

 

It was rape. She even sent him the customary post-rape gifts. When Elayne saw that she misunderstood and was angry at him up until he explained that he was the one that was raped

I don't get how what Tylin sent were "post-rape" gifts. I mean, Tylin sent those gifts and when Elayne learnt what they were she was angry at Mat because, according to you, she had thought he had raped Tylin. Now, I don't think any society however weird would demand that the rape victim send the rapist "post-rape gifts".

I someone can follow what I mean here, despite my twisted logic.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Little short of? It was.

Yet he looks back on her fondly.

 

To call it rape is too simplistic.

 

It was rape. She even sent him the customary post-rape gifts. When Elayne saw that she misunderstood and was angry at him up until he explained that he was the one that was raped

I don't get how what Tylin sent were "post-rape" gifts. I mean, Tylin sent those gifts and when Elayne learnt what they were she was angry at Mat because, according to you, she had thought he had raped Tylin. Now, I don't think any society however weird would demand that the rape victim send the rapist "post-rape gifts".

I someone can follow what I mean here, despite my twisted logic.

 

I always assumed those where a gift for a Pretty, which was what Tylin had made Matt, and Elayne thought Matt had wormed his way into said position, instead of standing the chance of a worm for resisting. 

[Graendals favourite]

I wonder if Elayne's initial reaction has something to do with her own... uh... history. I don't know if Elayne had fully reconciled to herself the situation of Taringail, Morgase and Thomdril. After all it is fairly reasonable for also her to suspect Thom was her and Gawyn's real father, (which would of course happen to mean she was right in Galad not being her brother). Taringail was more of the cold sort, and was even planning to kill Morgase and attempt to claim the throne before Thomdrill killed him instead, I think Thom was the father though this could of course not become known publicly. So one could theorise this affects Elayne's thoughts on queens having lovers.

 

After all, what would be wrong with Mat becoming Tylin's lover, if it were a mutually agreed situations, especially when Elayne has seen Tylin being only amiable toward Mat so that she cannot think Tylin abused in any manner.

[Casco]

Forcing a man to have sex, under weapon treath. Forcing him to have sex and dont lissen to a clear NO. Using her whole staff to hold him there, and treath him if he goes away from her. Making jokes about him, showing it to all.

 

Well....read this instead:

Forcing a WOMAN to have sex, under weapon treath. Forcing HER to have sex and dont lissen to a clear NO. Using HIS whole staff to hold HER there, and treath HER if SHE goes away from HIM. Making jokes about HER, showing it to all.

 

Witch one is a clear rape to you?

 

Anyway..i did think it was a great reading and realy fun. maby male and females isnt equal in all situations after all. Men simply have to accept more crap i think :)

 

The reason he did like her after all was that she wasnt realy bad to him even if he didnt want the extra services from her.

[Gentled Ben]

I figure a good portion of his fond memories of her have to due with her brutal murder. If she was still alive, he may well have different thoughts about her.

[MikeRiley]

No, he was growing to like her. That was clear in his goodbye to her on his flight from Ebou Dar. He understood it, himself. He did not like her one bit in the beginning, though. That also was very clear. You have to remember, this wasn't one isolated incident. He was pretty much held hostage there for some time. In the beginning it was rape after rape. Towards the end it wasn't (we hear him say he was looking forward to it, at times).

[Gentled Ben]

I've only read the series once, that wasn't one of my favorite parts, and it's been awhile since I read it, so you are probably correct. I'm about 150 pages into WH on my first re-read though, so I'm coming up on it. It probably just means I'll cringe again, especially at the humiliating ribbons. Unless someone is evil, like one of the Forsaken, I do not like seeing them sexually abused and humiliated like that.

 

It's a double standard, obviously, because I did not care when it was Liandrin, but I care with Mat. I would even care with Elayne, who is perhaps my least favorite main character. Whatever I think of her, she does not deserve to have the integrity of her body repeatedly violated and the whole thing made a spectacle of so that others might ridicule her in her shame. That Mat found a way to enjoy it speaks more of his character than any fondness he developed towards Tylin, and it certainly says nothing about his feelings towards nobility in general. We see him invariably go after the tavern maids while avoiding the highborn. Tuon is the exception to that, not Tylin. Of course, that relates to the Thin Innkeeper's post, and not yours, Mike.

[lordofsoup]

it isnt a double standard, just u care more about Mat as a character as not to want that to happen to him

[pxnsolid]

He was pretty much held hostage there for some time. In the beginning it was rape after rape. Towards the end it wasn't (we hear him say he was looking forward to it, at times).

 

stolkholm syndrom ( sp? )

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

It was rape. She even sent him the customary post-rape gifts. When Elayne saw that she misunderstood and was angry at him up until he explained that he was the one that was raped

In your opinion, not in mine.

 

Mat wanted sex toward the end.

 

The uncomfortable issue is that we're seeing a sexual predator at work, a female predator. That's it.

 

And sorry, "customary post-rape gifts"?!?

I always assumed those where a gift for a Pretty, which was what Tylin had made Matt, and Elayne thought Matt had wormed his way into said position, instead of standing the chance of a worm for resisting. 

Exactly.

Forcing a man to have sex, under weapon treath. Forcing him to have sex and dont lissen to a clear NO. Using her whole staff to hold him there, and treath him if he goes away from her. Making jokes about him, showing it to all.

 

Well....read this instead:

Forcing a WOMAN to have sex, under weapon treath. Forcing HER to have sex and dont lissen to a clear NO. Using HIS whole staff to hold HER there, and treath HER if SHE goes away from HIM. Making jokes about HER, showing it to all.

 

Witch one is a clear rape to you?

 

Anyway..i did think it was a great reading and realy fun. maby male and females isnt equal in all situations after all. Men simply have to accept more crap i think :)

 

The reason he did like her after all was that she wasnt realy bad to him even if he didnt want the extra services from her.

Casco.

 

No bold capital letters were needed, thank you.

 

I believe that Mat could have walked away at any point. I also believe that Mat began to enjoy himself.

 

Therefore, I do not believe it was rape.

 

Kindly, don't patronize me.

I figure a good portion of his fond memories of her have to due with her brutal murder. If she was still alive, he may well have different thoughts about her.

He was remembering her fondly when she was still alive too.

 

Same thoughts.

[vainebekonnes]

I apologize if anything I say is too much.  I'm trying to make it as non-explicit as possible, but since the discussion is about rape, it is possible I will unintentionally cross a line.  If I do so I am sorry, and feel free to delete this post.

 

Now, in regards to rape, it's not as clear cut as it might look at first glance.  Many people (maybe most), including myself, view rape as a forced sexual encounter.  However, that is not necessarily the case.  Many states (I couldn't tell you how many) require the victim to be the one who is penetrated for it to be a rape, including my state of Missouri.  There are a couple of reasons for this.  Studies in sexual psychology have shown that being the one that is penetrated requires a much greater amount of emotional vulnerability, and thus cause much greater feelings of violation in the case of a forced sexual encounter.  Also, there is a school of thought that since certain things must occur for the normal male/female encounter to be possible, the man can never truly be considered unwilling, even if coerced into the situation using force or the threat of force.  Now I pretty much reject this school of thought, seeing how any adolescent male can tell you that certain things occurring have no requirement of desire or even mental stimulation.  Still, these two things both lead to many laws requiring rape to be against a woman.  As far as comparable actions occurring to a male are concerned, those are normally covered under different laws.  This is so wide ranging, that the first definition of "rape" on dictionary.com is "1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse."

 

Now, regarding my personal opinion, I think it should count as rape regardless of the genders and specifics involved, as long as it was forced.  In this case, Mat is most clearly raped repeatedly, at least at the beginning of the relationship.  However, his reaction to this is a good example of why laws are often written the way that they are.  He does find Tylin attractive, but is put off by the fact that she's the queen, her age, and that she's the one chasing him.  From his perspective, it seems that the switching of traditional roles in the pursuit is the thing that bothers him the most.  So, while he doesn't want to have sex with her, and tries to fend her off, he doesn't find the experience traumatic or lacking in pleasure.  This is why it's so easy for him to segue into having feelings for her, because he never suffered the deep emotional wounds that normally occur with rape, nor did he feel the same level of violation.  I still consider what Tylin did both rape and morally reprehensible.  However, even I wouldn't equate it with a man raping a woman.  I certainly don't think that Mat would consider it such.  He seemed more irritated and annoyed than damaged or emotionally distraught, even at the worst of it.

 

My point is, both sides of the discussion have equal validity, depending on which view of rape you adhere to.  Both are equally supported, and each have their merits and their faults.  But we should all be able to agree that Tylin physically forced herself onto Mat, using threats of violence and the power of her position, at least at the beginning.  This was an immoral thing to do.  Can we all at least agree to that?

[MikeRiley]

I believe that Mat could have walked away at any point. I also believe that Mat began to enjoy himself.

 

Therefore, I do not believe it was rape.

 

My books are still in storage so I can't really pull a quote to support this, but one of (if not the) first sexual encounters between Tylin and Mat involved Mat trying to get the key from Tylin so he could leave his room (remember, she locked the door too, that's considered kidnapping) and he ended up being led to the bed with a knife digging in under his chin while he considered whether he was quick enough to deal with her before the knife went into his skull. He was also tied up for it other times. Let's not forget his recalling Tylin's "chase" of him, where she would get her servants to drag him there and tie him down for her. The way he thought it at first was "you can't manhandle a queen" and it was in part her authority in Ebou Dar that made him unable to refuse her. Think priest and altar boy.

 

Almost forgot.. Tylin made sure Mat couldn't walk away at any time. She gave him funny looking clothes and hid his dice so he wouldn't be able to afford food and clothing to support himself, let alone his men. That way he would have to return to the palace at the end of the day. You probably mean it the other way and refuse sleeping with her, but so long as he lived in the palace he could be set upon at any time by her and he wasn't always able to refuse. He had to think ahead well enough for it, as I recall Tylin laughing outside the locked door shortly after he moved in and the night before he moved Olver into his sitting room so she wouldn't be able to get at him.