Various Issues

[Luckers]

Nope. Near as we know the earliest Chosen was Ishamael. Mierin drilled the bore, but she didn't go over until much later.

 

That being said the Collapse lasted over a hundred years, and people were swearing themselves to the Shadow long before the War began. We don't know if the Dark One was bandying about immortality at that stage though.

 

A channeler would have aged about ten years in that time though, so it would have been noticeable.

[Tyrell]

Worth pointing out : the Dark One is certainly capable of offering immortality, this is demonstrated by his bringing Ishy, Lanfear, Aginor and Balthamel back from beyond the grave. Whether or not he actually would be willing to if he weren't desperate though. The 'Bors' chapter seems to imply that all darkfriends are offered immortality, but they definitely don't get it.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Speaking of which, whatever happened to Howal Gode. He was the Darkfriend in Four Kings that died by lightning. He was also in one of Rand's Ba'alzamon dreams after he died. Ba'alzamon said "Here is your reward my faithful pet" or something like that, and Gode "had a look of joy on his face, which turned to horror, as if he saw something he hadn't expected". So do all Darkfriends really just rot in the Pit of Doom? Or was this just something Gode faced?

[wavemistresstrammell]

Nope. Near as we know the earliest Chosen was Ishamael. Mierin drilled the bore, but she didn't go over until much later.

 

Oh my god I never associated Lanfear with Mierin... even after hearing her name. Wow, good thing I'm a natural blonde I guess, no offense to other blondes, it's just that I really am a ditzy blonde. 

[mb]

Was Morgase a learner or a sparker?

 

For learners, does slowing start when they start channeling?

Lifespan of a learner, would that depend on if they were taught channeling or not?

 

Saidin channelers are generally (but not always) stronger in the One Power than saidar channelers.  Would sparkers generally be stronger than learners?

 

[OptimusPrime]

I'd say she was a learner. I get the impression that sparkers in general are stronger than learners. On average, that is.

[Mr. Dragon]

Was Morgase a learner or a sparker?

 

For learners, does slowing start when they start channeling?

Lifespan of a learner, would that depend on if they were taught channeling or not?

 

Saidin channelers are generally (but not always) stronger in the One Power than saidar channelers.  Would sparkers generally be stronger than learners?

 

 

I believe Morgase was a learner, it's not ever said that she had the spark and the fact that she can barely channel even with training would suggest that she learned. As for the slowing, I think that it starts when the person regularly starts handling respectible amounts of the source, Morgase I think is a good example as she neither channels regularly or very much and so hasn't slowed. The lifespan of a learner would depend on if they were taught (except for people like Morgase) because otherwise they might never hold the power. As for whether people born with the spark are generally stronger than learners, it is difficult to say without a much more complete data set. Off the top of my head, these are they people we know are very strong (respective of gender) and know whether they were born with the spark or not: Rand, Taim, Logain, Nyneave, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Alivia (if I have missed any please say so). All of these were born with the spark, this idicates that the very strongest of channelers are born with the spark but we just don't have the data to confidently say whether sparkers are generally stronger than learners.

[Mr Ares]

Was Morgase a learner or a sparker?

Learner.

 

For learners, does slowing start when they start channeling?

Yes. See Sharina and Damer.

Lifespan of a learner, would that depend on if they were taught channeling or not?

Yes.

Would sparkers generally be stronger than learners?

So we have been told.

[Luckers]

Quote from: mb on September 25, 2009, 03:45:47 PM

Was Morgase a learner or a sparker?

 

Learner.

 

Actually she went to the Tower as a young girl (i.e. before she might have sparked), and there have been no statements about whether she was a sparker or a learner.

 

Quote

For learners, does slowing start when they start channeling?

 

Yes. See Sharina and Damer.

 

Indeed, though RJ said they will de-age back to middle age as a result of channeling.

 

Quote

Would sparkers generally be stronger than learners?

 

So we have been told.

 

Where? Verin says that Sparkers have come to be strong Aes Sedai, but nothing about that being the normal state--indeed her comments seem to imply that as the exception.

 

Am I missing something?

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

Where? Verin says that Sparkers have come to be strong Aes Sedai, but nothing about that being the normal state--indeed her comments seem to imply that as the exception.

 

Am I missing something?

Just look at all the strong channelers, all but Sharina have been sparkers haven't they?

[Mr Ares]

Actually she went to the Tower as a young girl (i.e. before she might have sparked), and there have been no statements about whether she was a sparker or a learner.

It was a guess.

 

Where? Verin says that Sparkers have come to be strong Aes Sedai, but nothing about that being the normal state--indeed her comments seem to imply that as the exception.

Where? I vaguely recall something about sparkers tending to be stronger than learners, but can't recall where.

[Luckers]

 

 

Where? Verin says that Sparkers have come to be strong Aes Sedai, but nothing about that being the normal state--indeed her comments seem to imply that as the exception.

 

Am I missing something?

Just look at all the strong channelers, all but Sharina have been sparkers haven't they?

 

There are two points to this--one, sparkers manifest, whilst there are hundreds of thousands of untapped learners. Of course sparkers are going to represent the top strengths--even with 3 in 4 dying, their range of strengths covers the full range. It's 1 in 100 at best amongst the learners (and probably conciderablet less than that) that are active.

 

1 in 100 to 1 in 4. Of course there is going to be opportunity for the stronger channelers to manifest from Sparkers. It's not indicative of much.

 

Two, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne and Alivia are cited as strong sparkers. Sharina is a strong learner. Then there is Talene, Metarra, Someryn, Tamela and Viendre with unstated origins, and they are a few amongst the thousands of unstated channelers amongts the Aiel, Atha'an Miere and Seanchan.

 

My point it mostly that we don't know, and have reason to not give judgement yet due to the skewed manifestation of sparkers v. learners in the Westlands as a result of Aes Sedai recruitment methods--but your comment that we have been told that sparkers are stronger than learners is unsupported.

 

Quote from: Luckers on September 29, 2009, 09:16:19 AM

Actually she went to the Tower as a young girl (i.e. before she might have sparked), and there have been no statements about whether she was a sparker or a learner.

 

It was a guess.

 

You should maybe have said it as such--there are lots of impressionable newbies about. You wouldn't want to contribute to the miseducation of minor would you?

 

... wait... ignore that. It is NOT a challenge.  ;D

[Mr Ares]

You should maybe have said it as such--there are lots of impressionable newbies about. You wouldn't want to contribute to the miseducation of minor would you?

Mostly I wanted to contribute to the miseducation of an impressionable mb, but now that you mention it...

 

... wait... ignore that. It is NOT a challenge.  ;D

Damn. Spoilsport.

[Luckers]

Heh. I know you too well.

[Nightstrike]

My point it mostly that we don't know, and have reason to not give judgement yet due to the skewed manifestation of sparkers v. learners in the Westlands as a result of Aes Sedai recruitment methods--but your comment that we have been told that sparkers are stronger than learners is unsupported.

There can be no doubt that sparkers are stronger than learners. It is very, very rare to be a sparker. And yet it is the norm among the strong ones. Only two really remarkable exceptions - Sharina and Flinn. Plus Nicola (a little less remarkable, but still).

[Luckers]

Well, again 1 in 4 sparkers are active, whereas 1 in (at the very best) 100 learners are active.

 

It may be rare to be a sparker (at least one that survives), but I would suggest it is even more rare to be an active learner, and that whilst sparkers represent the entire spectrum of strength, sparkers may be skewed by how bothered to go to the Tower.

 

I would also, once more point out that there is Talaan, Metarra, Someryn, Tamela and Viendre with unstated origins, all equalling or exceeding the stated sparkers (excluding Alivia).

 

So yes, once again this claim that sparkers must be on average stronger than learners is unsustained. The pool from which we must concider this issue is tainted by the stupid manner which Aes Sedai use to recruit.

 

In effect, not only can there be doubt, there can be conciderable doubt.

[Nightstrike]

No, there is no doubt what so ever.

 

Sparkers are very rare, and yet they are in a majority among the really strong ones. All the way to below Moiraine/Siuan level.

 

Sparkers will either die, become wilders (/Wisdoms/whatever), or become enlisted at Tar Valon. They may be overrepresented, compared to the expected percentage of all novices. But that doesn't change the fact that they are in majority among the very strong ones.

[Nightstrike]

Well, again 1 in 4 sparkers are active, whereas 1 in (at the very best) 100 learners are active.

What do you base that on? That can't be right...

 

[Nightstrike]

The White Tower didn't accept people above 18 to become Aes Sedai. They teached them enough for their own safety, and then sent them away. No matter how strong they could be.

[Nightstrike]

From the BWB:

If the barriers are broken, wilders are often among the most powerful of channelers.

 

Learners do not become "wilders" with "barriers".

[Nightstrike]

If learners are the same strength (on average) as sparkers, then the group of women that Sharina came from should have about the same strength as the average of AS. Instead most of them by far aren't even strong enough to earn the shawl. Before Egwene, that is. They are a very large group of very weak learners. The top of the strength list is a very small group of very strong sparkers.

 

We also have:..."Five of the Two Rivers girls, including Bode, Elle and Janacy, would channel eventually whether anyone taught them or not, and be very strong." (LoC, Lessons and Teachers). One of them was Mat's sister (Bodewhin). The one that will be almost as strong as Egwene. Coincidence? No way.

 

 

 

[Sharaman]

My comment about disguising voice, I was not saying that it was impossible but that it would not be through Illusion.  Would this be correct?

You can change voice tone/ indeed any sound by manipulating air. 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Aye. You can do that with your hands, let alone the Power.

[Sharaman]

If someone tried to take Callandor before the Dragon Reborn did, what would have happened to that someone?

How did the Stone of Tear remain until Rand took Callandor?

Nothing would have happened to anyone trying to take Callandor before Rand took it the first time--the ward was like a forcefield, like an invisible wall that prevented anyone from touching the sa'angreal, but it did not cause injury. After Rand drove it into the Stone and warded it, it would have caused injury, but we cannot be certain of the nature of the injuries sustained from it. Grievous, I suppose...

 

Didn't Narishma complain that he nearly got killed retrieving Callandor since Rand didn't give him full instructions? Though I think that was also because Sammael embellished Rand's wards.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Rand specifically mentions a few times how deadly his wards on. Not just on Callandor, but at other times also. He likes be thorough I guess.