Traitors

[Llewin]

You say there is an obvious trail of breadcrumbs... but what exactly does moghedien indicate she knows about the situation? and when? is it after they arrive in the TAR version of Andor or before?

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's when Nynaeve captures Moggy in T'a'R the next morning.  Before they go to Andor - it's why they go there.  Before Rand kills Rahvin.

[DemandredFO]

I remember Lanfear talking about dream wards and that she could frighten the wise ones so that they never dream again.

On the subject of darkfriends I think there has to be one or two people who we really like who turn out to be DFs.  I like Bashere but it is likely he is a darkfriend

[Llewin]

It's when Nynaeve captures Moggy in T'a'R the next morning.  Before they go to Andor - it's why they go there.  Before Rand kills Rahvin.

 

Thanks, Bob...

 

Even so, Moggy still has a 'sneak around and spy on people' MO... I think that her source could just as easily be ...herself... rather than Amys or another person seeking her out and telling her...

[benr]

Only if Avi speaks to Amys in Ta'R.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yeah.  Moggy can easily spy on people in T'a'R, but we've seen no way for anyone to peek out from T'a'R into the real world.

 

I'm still not certain about Bashere.  It's either him or someone very close to him that is a DF ( or worse ) though.

[RAND AL THOR]

Who is Amys

 

The Dark One's daughter.

[Mysterious]

There's not enough evidence pointing out that Amys is a DF. For the sake of the arguement we'll say Avi did tell her and there were no other Wise Ones in the tent. Going logically, she would have told other Wise Ones and it would be logical that the information of the impending attack would have been sent through the dreams to other distant Wise Ones. She would have had to tell other Wise Ones because if it became known that she witheld such important information from others it would have been suspect. Avi isn't apprenticed to only Amys.

 

We have to take into account that both Moghedien and Lanfear are both adept in Tel'aran'rhiod and both have boasted about being able to break into dreams of others. Lanfear boasted this to Rand in FoH before the darkhounds attacked. Moggy could have also been spying on them as well.

 

For Lanfear:

 

 

While never a field commander, Lanfear was very useful to the Dark One both before and during the War of the Shadow. Using dreams, she guided a number of operations that turned people against established authority, creating massive riots. She is credited with winning several battles for the Shadow by the same means. She is credited with driving a number of people mad and driving others to suicide, as well as performing outright assassinations in Tel’aran’rhiod.

 

Aside from these useful pursuits, Lanfear served as a governor of conquered territory at least once. She was involved in many atrocities, perhaps more than most of the Forsaken, but the people she governed had more than the usual horrors of the Shadow to face; they feared sleep itself. Suicide rates were extremely high in her territory, even considering the fact that suicide was endemic in all the conquered territories.

 

 

For Moggy:

 

 

It is known that she headed a very effective intelligence and sabotage network, one which may in fact have been under her control well before this. Some sources say that as many deaths may be laid at Moghedien’s feet as at those of any general of the Shadow, but few of her victims were soldiers.

 

Her greatest asset was her ability within the World of Dreams, Tel’aran’rhiod. Within its dimensions her skills surpassed even Lanfear’s, despite the latter’s claim of sovereignty. She never dared confront or challenge Lanfear in the world of flesh, for there she could not hope to match Lanfear’s superior strength.

 

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Bob T Dwarf]

First, that's a pretty unreliable way of doing things.  It will probably work eventually, but you can't count on getting the result you want in the first go.

 

Second, that information pertains to how they were able to do things during the WoP.  The Wise Ones all shield their dreams these days.  Rand and Mat both are shielded, as well.

 

Third, there's a thing called operational security.  Most bellicose cultures ( and the Aiel are certainly that ) understand that there's a time to disseminate information and there's a time to hold it close.  If you assume that Amys is Light, she would understand the need to wait until the op had kicked off before letting anybody else in on it. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

But, just to be clear...

 

This is a theory.  It's conceivable that there is a better suspect within the book.  Amys is just the clearest one I've been able to find.

 

The bread crumbs lead straight to her.  Avi doesn't say, "Amys and...", or "Amy's or...", she just says, "Amys..."

[Mysterious]

I'll give you Operational Security, but we're still taking on as fact the forsaken cannot enter shielded dreams. We don't know. Lanfear did boast that she could break Rand's shield in FoH.

 

There can be other much more easier ways to get information. When Rand found out that Rahvin supposedly killed Morgase he was in a room with a balcony. The Forsaken could have easily sent an inverted weave to listen in or could have settled various spy weaves wherever Rand frequents.

 

We have seen that most weaving in the series is very primative compared to the Age of Legends with only the Healing of Stilling, Warder bonding and the Cuendillar as standing against that notion. The creation of spy weaves would most likely be an area that most Aes Sedai and the Forsaken would have been familiar with at the very least during the war.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Forsaken claim lots of things.  They pose and posture worse than a faceoff between Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and Sea Folk..

 

Now... how much of what they claim is actually true ???

[anamul]

There is no way, Amys is a spy. I seem to remember the fact that all the wise ones in Cairhen confronting Rand to make sure that his obligation to Elayne doesn't outweight his duty to the Aiel. So for them to come and confront him together, they have to learn the fact that Rand was going to attack Rahvin, long before that.

 

So anyone of them could have been the spy as well. If you talk about bread and crumbs, spread around by RJ, they fall into the same catagory.

 

Let see, Aviendha inform Amys at night...probably in between 5 to 7 pm time. So she inform the other wise ones, within let say 8-10 pm....well, that leaves plenty of time to dispense information  or none at all.

 

----------------------------

I want Egwene to die a horrible death.

[Elwinn Taron]

Rand went that evening and informed all the chiefs, and all the wise ones knew, too.  He didn't dare give one group more time than the other.  By the next morning, all the maidens knew, too.  Sulin even tells Rand that they knew that he was going after a forsaken, but not that is was Rahvin.  All the spears that were going to Caemlyn knew, too.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes.

 

They knew he was going to war.  But not where.  Nor against whom.

 

Moggy DID know.  Exactly where and exactly whom.

 

That information could only have come from one of those who was in the room with him when he made his decision.  Aviendha was the only one who told any outsider.  Amys was the only one she told.

[Razor]

Amys was the only one she told.

 

This is a logical fallacy.  Amys is the only one she announced she was planning to tell.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

At some point in a story, you have to accept that a character means what they say, otherwise things go nowhere.

 

It's always possible that Avi is the fink, and everything she says and does is just misdirection, but not very likely.  I think DF status would show up in the sister-bond or the bonding of Rand, if no place else.  There are now 5 people that are all in each other's heads to one degree or another.  Seven if you count LTT and Moridin.

[deathgate]

Moggy DID know.  Exactly where and exactly whom.

 

Being that it is the spider she might have learned by her usual tricks - sneaking around. She could have been there as a maid or read someone's dreams. All just guesswork any of which are possible until the book gives out the real info.

[Kaznen]

Let's not forget Moggy, despite what Lanfear thinks, is the best dreamer their is.  The night before she could have looked into anyone's dreams (even Rand's) and learned what was going to happen.

[DemandredFO]

Rand would have known because of his warding.

[darvick]

This is from FOH Chaper 52 pg.876.

Rand thinking to himself.

The Wise Ones had come to him, a delegation of more than fifty, alerted by Aviendha herself and led by Amys and Melaine and Bair; or maybe by Sorilea.They had not come to talk him out of anything-ji'e'toh again-but to make sure he understood that his obligation to Elayne did not outweigh that to the Aiel,...

 

So thats fifty or so Wise Ones and also the Clan Chiefs.

[Yurian]

So thats fifty or so Wise Ones and also the Clan Chiefs.

As well as who knows how many gai-shain.  Aiel are rather open in front of them.  And the servants in the Palace, who could have overheard anything anytime. 

 

[Fryn]

Well you know at least 1 - 2 of Rand's most trusted advisors will be DFs. I hadn't thought of Amys, but it could fit. We already know there has been at least one Aiel DF, even though the leaders claimed they didn't have any (at leat iirc; its been a long time now since I have read it). I always assumed it would be someone like Bashere though.

 

Right now the only obvious ones are some of those in the Black Tower, but I am pretty sure there will be multiple shocks from all of the factions in Randland. So far we have seen some of the high ranking DF from whitecloaks, Aes Sedai, and Seachan exposed; but that leaves a wide range of DF to be exposed from the other groups close to Rand. The higher up DFs from the Aiel, Sea Folk, Borderlanders, Cairhien, Andor, etc haven't been exposed yet. And it would be hard to believe they don't exist. Really it is funny that the higher status DFs that have been exposed so far are groups in which Rand has no contact. As if those close are biding their time.

 

You know that there are multiple DF because of things RJ said outside of the books. He was saying that teh light was in a world of hurt before AMoL and it just appeared they were winning. I think he said something like there was a very slim chance the light could win, and that it wasn't going well for them.

[Asmo]

There is one thing I want to say about Friends of the Dark - as far as memory goes, in all of the Books we never had a single POV from a  Darkfriend that we didn't know was a Darkfriend at the time, and did not confirm him being a Darkfriend. I believe that motive is going to go on - it's pretty realistic and logical, considering the way Jordan structured his POVs. Viewing things from that perspective narrows the array of potential Darkfriends by a great margin, and I don't believe I'm wrong here. On the other hand, important characters whose POVs have been meticulously avoided thus far are up for grabs - Taim is a good example.

[Snowy Dawn]

``We already know there has been at least one Aiel DF, even though the leaders claimed they didn't have any.''

 

More than one, yes? Melindra was already dead when Katerine Alruddin was freed after her capture at Dumai's Wells, and we know that Alruddin is Black Ajah, so it had to have been other darkfriends, more than one I suspect, that were responsible for her escape.

 

``On the other hand, important characters whose POVs have been meticulously avoided thus far are up for grabs - Taim is a good example.''

 

As of the end of <i>Knife of Dreams</i>, Mazrim Taim is confirmed a Darkfriend, and that is no longer up for grabs. It is reasonable to suppose that most of the Asha'man in that room with him when Pevara and the others arrive are also Darkfriends (and potential Dreadlords).