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Was Lews Therin born Dai'shain?

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First, since I'm brand-new here, I should say that I searched before I posted. But nothing came up... which probably says more about my lack of familiarity with this board's software than anything else.

 

Still, the discussions I've read here, regarding the Song, and Rand's trip through the past, and hints regarding his response to Loial's treesinging, all lead me to this question:

 

Was Lews Therin Telamon a Dai'shain Aiel?

 

The only other hint is the thought of one of Rand's Dai'shain ancestors, in the scene of the crop singing, where he thinks that he is glad that he was spared being tested for a soldier. But we know that the Tua'thaan send their girls who can channel to the White Tower, and the Aiel not only find every girl with the spark, but send their channeling men to the Great Blight to die.

 

So clearly, the ability existed in the Dai'shain.

 

If the signature ability of the Dai'shain was the Song, and Rand responds to whatever remnants of it remain in the world, and if Rand is Lews Therin reborn, is it silly to think that perhaps Lews Telamon (I get that the middle name was added later, correct?) was chosen for Aes Sedai from among the Dai'shain Aiel, and when the world was collapsing around them, and so many that they had followed had turned to evil, that the Aiel followed the one who was not only the champion of the Light, but had been born among them?

 

--Shannon

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``where he thinks that he is glad that he was spared being tested for a soldier''

 

No, no Aiel would have been tested for a soldier, but rather would have been tested for being able to channel. And LTT had dark hair---he was not Aiel.

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Everything we know of Lewis Therin implies he was not a follower of the way of the leaf. Remember he was an expert fencer among other things.

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Everything we know of Lewis Therin implies he was not a follower of the way of the leaf.

 

Which brings up an interesting question: Since we know that Aiel were tested for the ability to channel during the War of the Shadow, did they have to give up the Way in order to become Aes Sedai? It would seem logical to assume that all of the Aes Sedai's efforts were directed toward the war. What role could the Dai'shain play in this, if they still had to hold to the Way?

 

As to hair color, are the Tua'thaan all light-haired? I don't recall that being the case. And I'm also recalling some modern Aiel being mentioned as unusually dark, but I'm not sure.

 

If Lews Therin had no connection to the Aiel, then would Rand's response to the left-overs of ancient Dai'shain practices be coming through his Aiel blood, separate from his status as the rebirth of Lews Therin?

 

--Shannon

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FYI:  That we know of Lews Therin prompted by Ishamael killed everyone who had any of his blood.  He used the same weave as Rand did to kill the Trollocs in the Stone of Tear.

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Lews Therin had no special connection to the Aiel as far as I know.  If you are refering to Rand's time in teh glass columns of Rhuidean, those memories are from the eyes of his blood ancestors on his father's side.

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Everything we know of Lewis Therin implies he was not a follower of the way of the leaf.

 

Which brings up an interesting question: Since we know that Aiel were tested for the ability to channel during the War of the Shadow, did they have to give up the Way in order to become Aes Sedai?

 

An interesting question. Likely nobody can answer that for sure but it would not be necessary. If the Aiel Aes Sedai chose to do research etc and not be actively involved in any fighting they would not have to give up the Way. There were no Ajahs in the Age of Legends, I believe.

 

Of course this severely restricts their lives.

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``As to hair color, are the Tua'thaan all light-haired? I don't recall that being the case.''

 

Perhaps not, I haven't re-read all of the passages about Raen et al, but I would observe that from time to time over the years other people joined the Tua'thaan (a common worry amongst non-Tinkers, recall?), and some of them would have been dark-haired/dark-eyed. The original Tua'thaan were Aiel, but later on they are of mixed ancestry.

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

Lews Therin had no special connection to the Aiel as far as I know

UNQUOTE

 

The Aiel sometimes call themselves the People of the Dragon. Can anyone tellme why? Obviosly it refers to Lews Therin, who was the Dragon, but why do they call themselves that?

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``The Aiel sometimes call themselves the People of the Dragon.''

 

Because most people forgot that the Da'Shain served any other Aes Sedai. See the scene with Jonai and Someshta in the middle of Ch. 26, ``The Dedicated'' in <i>The Shadow Rising</i>. Why this was so, is not explained in that chapter....

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Which brings up an interesting question: Since we know that Aiel were tested for the ability to channel during the War of the Shadow, did they have to give up the Way in order to become Aes Sedai? It would seem logical to assume that all of the Aes Sedai's efforts were directed toward the war. What role could the Dai'shain play in this, if they still had to hold to the Way?

 

Healing, making Angreal, opening Gateways...

 

If Lews Therin had no connection to the Aiel, then would Rand's response to the left-overs of ancient Dai'shain practices be coming through his Aiel blood, separate from his status as the rebirth of Lews Therin?

 

Yes. Rand and LTT share the same soul, not the same blood.

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Since we know that Aiel were tested for the ability to channel during the War of the Shadow, did they have to give up the Way in order to become Aes Sedai?

 

They probably did, yes. The Covenant was linked specifically to the service of the Dai'shain. A guess, but still... they probably did.

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Giving up the Way would have been extremely difficult to the Da'shain-whatever the reason. That is most easily seen where the Aiel leave the AS after the AS talk to the Green Man where they tell the Aiel to keep the Way and the Aiel is shocked that they would even ask that. It is their belief. Without the Way they are not Aiel. Would they give that up to become AS? I am more inclined to think that, as Majsju suggested, they would seek arts that do not require them to give up the Way.

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Is it necessary that LTT have been dai'shain aiel in order to have the gift of The Voice? Do we know or have strong evidence that only aiel had that gift?

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FYI:  That we know of Lews Therin prompted by Ishamael killed everyone who had any of his blood.  He used the same weave as Rand did to kill the Trollocs in the Stone of Tear.

 

Where did you read / hear either of these things? Or are they of your own speculation? I always assumed that taint of the curse is what caused him to destroy everyone.

 

As for how he did it, in either PoD or WH,  Rand reflects on how he used Callandor once in the heart of the stone to "create flows that would hunt out and destroy any creatures of the dark" or some such, so I wouldn't think it was the same weave....

 

If you have some quote from RJ, etc, please share- that would be new news for me! (sorry for hijacking...i know this isn't the focus of this thread :)

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Where did you read / hear either of these things? Or are they of your own speculation? I always assumed that taint of the curse is what caused him to destroy everyone.

 

So far as the first claim goes, viz., ``That we know Lews Therin prompted by Ishamael killed everyone who had any of his blood.'', perhaps one should not believe everything agents of the Dark One say, nevertheless, Ba'alzomon (Ishamael in fact) makes that claim in the first of his appearances in the dreams of Mat, Perrin, and Rand, in <i>The Eye of the World</i>. See the end of Ch. 14, ``The Stag and Lion'' (pp. 204--205 in the paperback edition). (I assume that he has pulled them into T.A.R. as he does the dark friends in the scene in <i>The Dragon Reborn</i> which is observed by Hopper and Perrin [Ch. 36, pp. 409-411, paper edition, ``Daughter of the Night''].)

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Back before the bore was drilled into the Dark One's lair and he was free to touch the world, they didn't have wars and trollocs and that sort of thing.  There's no reason to expect that the Aes Sedai didn't follow something that practically amounted to the same thing as the way of the leaf.  They wouldn't have needed to do violence in the Age of Legends.  It specifically mentions war being a new concept to them after the bore was drilled, so if Lews Therin had been born a Dai'shain Aiel that wouldn't have been a conflict until after the Dark One was there.  Which, because the whole concept of fighting like that might have been a new concept, it might have been a lot more forgivable.

 

There was a specific Aiel wise one (and the Aiel didn't mix blood like the Tinkers did) that had dark hair and she was very proud of it because of its rarity among their people.  So Aiel could have dark hair, even if they didn't usually.

 

I think the Voice has only been mentioned as being something of the Dai'Shain Aiel and possibly the Ogier, although it's hard to tell if their singing talents are the same talent or not.  It's not explicitly stated that Lews Therin had the talent himself, it's just widely suspected because of his singing to the morning and Rand's reaction to the Choeden Kal and Saidin "singing" in his head during that instance.

 

Because the books are written in narrative form, RJ didn't give us a lot of hard and fast rules about what things HAVE to be.  However, because of the role of the Dai'shain Aiel as servants, I think if Lews Therin had been one, one of the other forsaken probably would have mentioned it in some derogatory or insulting way.

 

It does bring up an interesting point... how do Tinker girls feel about suddenly being able to channel and having to choose whether or not to follow the way of the leaf in modern times?

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It specifically mentions war being a new concept to them after the bore was drilled, so if Lews Therin had been born a Dai'shain Aiel that wouldn't have been a conflict until after the Dark One was there.

 

Excwpt we knoe that LTT practitced the sport of "fencing" which no true Follower of the Leaf would do. Dai'shin Ail, tinkers, etc. were true total pacifests, they not only did not serve in the military but they held to an absolute ban on doing any violence to any living creature.

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After re-reading the series and all the 'extras' i though that it was the Nym who  did the song along with the Dai'shain Aiel, the nym were a construct of the power? and iirc the Green man is the last of the nym.

 

anyways as luckers explained LTT had nothing to do with the aiel as he basicly did the 'sports' fencing etc. Aiel and ever the tinkers dont use a sword as its is a man made construct which serves only the purpose to harm another person. so LTT would pick up a sword if he was dai'shain

 

Meh, thats my two copper's worth

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On 6/27/2008 at 4:43 AM, Blackrose said:

After re-reading the series and all the 'extras' i though that it was the Nym who  did the song along with the Dai'shain Aiel, the nym were a construct of the power? and iirc the Green man is the last of the nym.

 

anyways as luckers explained LTT had nothing to do with the aiel as he basicly did the 'sports' fencing etc. Aiel and ever the tinkers dont use a sword as its is a man made construct which serves only the purpose to harm another person. so LTT would pick up a sword if he was dai'shain

 

Meh, thats my two copper's worth

 

Not really. Belal referred to fencing as a "harmless sport" before they learned how to kill with it, so presumably it did not violate the Way of the Leaf.

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Aiel do not face the draft. But an Aiel with the ability to channel would need to go to learn how to control Saidin. That Aiel would not be available to sing to the plants. I see no reason they couldn’t maintain the way of the leaf.

The Aiel really had two original seemingly unrelated tasks, follow the way of the leaf...

and care for the trees of life.* It isn’t clear to me when the Aiel started serving the Aes Sedai, one Aiel served Meirin before the Bore.

Originally the Aiel had few channelers, but in the last 3000 yrs, Randlandians culled the ability from their people and let countless women die prior to having children and hunted down all the men, most before they had more than a couple children. During that same period, the Aiel had women who lived hundreds of years mating with other Aiel, slowly increasing the channeler DNA in their population.

Upon DNA, the Traveling people (Tinkers) were started from the Aiel, they not only forsook their responsibility to the trees, they also forsook their promise to transport the magical objects. During the last 3000 years, they “stole” people’s children, aka brainwashing people into their crazy cult. Building dwellers didn’t like think because they would lose contact with their adult children in a world where people expected their children and grandchildren to live within walking distance and marry someone the parents knew well and trusted safe for their child. Thus the original redheadedness was eventually lost and the traveling people looked no different than Randlandians. 
The People of the Dragon, I believe it may have merely been that once LTT became the Dragon and the Aiel served the Aes Sedai and LTT was the leader of all Aes Sedai...

Kinslayer, once the Bore was sealed, it would appear that Kinslayer merely retired (or continued to work, irrelevant) but he had kids and he got a huge palace, and his family lived with him. I recall somewhere it mentioning Kinslayer walking thru the hallways killing everyone in sight, movement, the weave doesn’t really matter. Ishy didn’t encourage Kinslayer, Ishy came after to gloat, torture Kinslayer by healing his mind so he could recall the murders. Then Kinslayer committed suicide and created the Dragonmount at that very spot. Rand was born near that spot.

While most people were not violent, some rare cases existed. One of the Forsaken tortured her patients. The Aes Sedai properly demanded she accepting the binding rod which is not very way of the leafy. It would seem the general population may be capable of a nominal level of aggression note the glimpse into the Age of Lengends when the man wearing a fancloak (old name for Warder cloak) knocked over the young Aiel Rand was riding in his memory. The man only apologized once he realized he knocked over an Aiel, behavior considered equivalent to knocking over a small child.

Fencing, while the rich could play this sport and we know boys generally wrestle, spar with quarterstaffs, these definitely seem too violent for Age of Legends Aiel and Tinkers today. 

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