Was Latra Posae Decume a Darkfriend/Forsaken

[Elan Tedronai]

Lews Therin when talking in Rands head said that latra posae's plan wouldnt have worked because you cant defeat the Dark one with sheer power and since he would know the most about the dark one ( besides the forsaken) we can assume that he is correct, so we can basically blame latra for not being able to seal the bore permanetly. Not having access to circles and still managing to enslave and dark one and forsaken with just 113 channelers, imagine what would have happened with circles formed.

 

 

The Choedan kal was not made to battle the DO but to create a barrier around shayol ghul to decrease his influence and also stop the shadow's advances. It was just a temporary measure whilst they figured a real plan to seal the bore apart from LTT's plan.

 

LTT was not right because he thought he could mend what the creator has created. That was his first mistake. If the women went along, both halves of the source would have been tainted and it would be gameover. Basically the only way to be sane in such situation would have been to pledge yourself to the DO.

[NitroS]

Lews Therin when talking in Rands head said that latra posae's plan wouldnt have worked because you cant defeat the Dark one with sheer power and since he would know the most about the dark one ( besides the forsaken) we can assume that he is correct, so we can basically blame latra for not being able to seal the bore permanetly. Not having access to circles and still managing to enslave and dark one and forsaken with just 113 channelers, imagine what would have happened with circles formed.

 

 

The Choedan kal was not made to battle the DO but to create a barrier around shayol ghul to decrease his influence and also stop the shadow's advances. It was just a temporary measure whilst they figured a real plan to seal the bore apart from LTT's plan.

 

LTT was not right because he thought he could mend what the creator has created. That was his first mistake. If the women went along, both halves of the source would have been tainted and it would be gameover. Basically the only way to be sane in such situation would have been to pledge yourself to the DO.

 

im just going off what lews therrin actually said which was the womens plan wouldnt have worked because you cant overcome him with sheer power whether that means sealing the bore or destroying the dark one, its a quote from the book.

 

You dont know that saidar would have been tainted because the battle could have been so much different with linked circles going around every where + access to more sar angreal/different sai dar weaves. Robert jordan said that it was very unique for the taint to be put into saidean and the circumstances could have been changed.

[Elan Tedronai]

Lews Therin when talking in Rands head said that latra posae's plan wouldnt have worked because you cant defeat the Dark one with sheer power and since he would know the most about the dark one ( besides the forsaken) we can assume that he is correct, so we can basically blame latra for not being able to seal the bore permanetly. Not having access to circles and still managing to enslave and dark one and forsaken with just 113 channelers, imagine what would have happened with circles formed.

 

 

The Choedan kal was not made to battle the DO but to create a barrier around shayol ghul to decrease his influence and also stop the shadow's advances. It was just a temporary measure whilst they figured a real plan to seal the bore apart from LTT's plan.

 

LTT was not right because he thought he could mend what the creator has created. That was his first mistake. If the women went along, both halves of the source would have been tainted and it would be gameover. Basically the only way to be sane in such situation would have been to pledge yourself to the DO.

 

im just going off what lews therrin actually said which was the womens plan wouldnt have worked because you cant overcome him with sheer power whether that means sealing the bore or destroying the dark one, its a quote from the book.

 

You dont know that saidar would have been tainted because the battle could have been so much different with linked circles going around every where + access to more sar angreal/different sai dar weaves. Robert jordan said that it was very unique for the taint to be put into saidean and the circumstances could have been changed.

 

I think it's an author mistake because there was no plan to go toe to toe with the DO in 'the strike at shayol ghul' it was only made to create a barrier

 

And yes saidar would have been tainted if the women joined LTT like he wanted. Confirmed by RJ.

 

it's obvious why. You have a bore through the dark one's prison. so u want to seal it. So u put a patch on the bore. As you put the patch to close off the bore you will inevitably come into contact with DO. Because remember the DO can stick his finger if you will through the bore. so any patch you lay to cut off the bore would be in touch with his physical presence. That's why saidin was tainted. The men touched the DO when they laid the seals to close off the bore.

 

 

if the women joined in, saidar as well would be in contact with the DO's touch. They only way they can fix the whole problem in my opinion is to allow somehow the pattern to heal itself. The problem here is that they have to find someway to push back the DO through the bore long enough for this to happen.

[NitroS]

Lews Therin when talking in Rands head said that latra posae's plan wouldnt have worked because you cant defeat the Dark one with sheer power and since he would know the most about the dark one ( besides the forsaken) we can assume that he is correct, so we can basically blame latra for not being able to seal the bore permanetly. Not having access to circles and still managing to enslave and dark one and forsaken with just 113 channelers, imagine what would have happened with circles formed.

 

 

The Choedan kal was not made to battle the DO but to create a barrier around shayol ghul to decrease his influence and also stop the shadow's advances. It was just a temporary measure whilst they figured a real plan to seal the bore apart from LTT's plan.

 

LTT was not right because he thought he could mend what the creator has created. That was his first mistake. If the women went along, both halves of the source would have been tainted and it would be gameover. Basically the only way to be sane in such situation would have been to pledge yourself to the DO.

 

im just going off what lews therrin actually said which was the womens plan wouldnt have worked because you cant overcome him with sheer power whether that means sealing the bore or destroying the dark one, its a quote from the book.

 

You dont know that saidar would have been tainted because the battle could have been so much different with linked circles going around every where + access to more sar angreal/different sai dar weaves. Robert jordan said that it was very unique for the taint to be put into saidean and the circumstances could have been changed.

 

I think it's an author mistake because there was no plan to go toe to toe with the DO in 'the strike at shayol ghul' it was only made to create a barrier

 

And yes saidar would have been tainted if the women joined LTT like he wanted. Confirmed by RJ.

 

it's obvious why. You have a bore through the dark one's prison. so u want to seal it. So u put a patch on the bore. As you put the patch to close off the bore you will inevitably come into contact with DO. Because remember the DO can stick his finger if you will through the bore. so any patch you lay to cut off the bore would be in touch with his physical presence. That's why saidin was tainted. The men touched the DO when they laid the seals to close off the bore.

 

 

if the women joined in, saidar as well would be in contact with the DO's touch. They only way they can fix the whole problem in my opinion is to allow somehow the pattern to heal itself. The problem here is that they have to find someway to push back the DO through the bore long enough for this to happen.

oh my bad thought robert jordan just said that the circumstances for saidean to be tainted had to be exact and it was a rare event. But then what if you Balefire through that hole since it destroys anything wouldnt that just destroy him from the pattern.

[Kahsm]

I tend to agree it's a little silly to say LPD was wrong not to follow LTT when it would have meant no clean sources of OP for either gender. You can argue that she lucked into saving Saidar and that she wasn't "right", fine. But she wasn't wrong either. She also wasn't the dragon, and since a lot of Egwene haters like to complain that Egwene thinks she's the world's savior, it's quite unfair to turn around and lay everything at LPD's feet when LTT was the one tasked.

[Elan Tedronai]

that's an interesting thought. balefireing him. the only problem is would balefire even work on the DO?

[Morsker]

I tend to agree it's a little silly to say LPD was wrong not to follow LTT when it would have meant no clean sources of OP for either gender. You can argue that she lucked into saving Saidar and that she wasn't "right", fine. But she wasn't wrong either. She also wasn't the dragon, and since a lot of Egwene haters like to complain that Egwene thinks she's the world's savior, it's quite unfair to turn around and lay everything at LPD's feet when LTT was the one tasked.

Also, thousands of years later, the tools created for LPD's plan were used to cleanse the Taint. She didn't plan this of course, but it really sounds like the Pattern's meddling to make things work out so perfectly. LTT's plan, with mixed-gender circles, would have failed. LPD's plan, just to delay things, would have failed. (Specifically, because the Forsaken would've gotten the access keys. The Shadow was advancing and took the territory they were in, right before LTT's strike ended the war.) Not only did the compromise between these two plans work, albeit at a cost, but the timing was exactly right; the CK were finished, but not in time to be used. The Pattern only intended them to be used in the Third Age.

 

Even if not ta'evern herself (thought I think she was), LPD was playing the part the Creator wrote into the Pattern for that Age, before the beginning of time. It's too perfect to be anything else.

[cookiecrisp]

It's possible to be obstinate and bullheaded like Egwene or simply a blithering idiot with the mask of a mentally competent person like Elaida without being a DF.

 

I'm pretty sure it was LTT's fault for not convincing Latra after CK fell. Building CK to fight the shadow was pretty stupid, but launching a suicide run without firmly convincing your own side after the action became the only option is also pretty dumb.

 

The Light might not have had 6 months, even. It might have had 2 hours, but he probably should have set his motion into place again, especially after CK fell.

 

I think the idea that a random snickering pimply faced moron of a dreadlord with his pock marked pudgy girlfriend of a dreadlord could have found two statues and proceeded to crack the world like an egg would have lent the Hall of the Servants some speed on the decision to support LTT.

[Elan Tedronai]

It's possible to be obstinate and bullheaded like Egwene or simply a blithering idiot with the mask of a mentally competent person like Elaida without being a DF.

 

I'm pretty sure it was LTT's fault for not convincing Latra after CK fell. Building CK to fight the shadow was pretty stupid, but launching a suicide run without firmly convincing your own side after the action became the only option is also pretty dumb.

 

The Light might not have had 6 months, even. It might have had 2 hours, but he probably should have set his motion into place again, especially after CK fell.

 

I think the idea that a random snickering pimply faced moron of a dreadlord with his pock marked pudgy girlfriend of a dreadlord could have found two statues and proceeded to crack the world like an egg would have lent the Hall of the Servants some speed on the decision to support LTT.

 

 

The women in a way dodged a bullet by not following LTT. As for the CK, well it may have not been used as originally planned but it did cleanse saidin so it served a purpose in the end. The biggest failure in the last age in my opinion was not capturing lanfear and beidomon to ascertain the nature of the bore. After all they were the ones who bored through the prison.

 

 

 

Ofcourse te biggest failure of this age is the needless destruction of the male Ck. A weapon that would have rendered every single shadowspawn enemey totally useless in tarmon gaidon therby saving lives. Ofcourse though where's the fun in all that?

[Zentari]

Ofcourse te biggest failure of this age is the needless destruction of the male Ck. A weapon that would have rendered every single shadowspawn enemey totally useless in tarmon gaidon therby saving lives. Ofcourse though where's the fun in all that?

Yeah, that part was stupid.Sure, you can argue that a bloodthirsty channeler might grab it and conquer the world afterwards but why dispose it now ? Just use it to beat then bad guys and then crack it like an egg.Sure, you would have destroyed a relic that took monumental effort to build just to make your moral grandstand but at least you utilized it first.

 

Bah, thing was too much op in the first place to be included in the LB.

[Elan Tedronai]

Ofcourse te biggest failure of this age is the needless destruction of the male Ck. A weapon that would have rendered every single shadowspawn enemey totally useless in tarmon gaidon therby saving lives. Ofcourse though where's the fun in all that?

Yeah, that part was stupid.Sure, you can argue that a bloodthirsty channeler might grab it and conquer the world afterwards but why dispose it now ? Just use it to beat then bad guys and then crack it like an egg.Sure, you would have destroyed a relic that took monumental effort to build just to make your moral grandstand but at least you utilized it first.

 

Bah, thing was too much op in the first place to be included in the LB.

 

 

There are weaves to secure objects of power. I mean rand did protect callandor with some nasty weaves when he left the stone of tear in book 4. so the Kal could have been protected too. And if you want to get pandatic you could weave that homing kill shadowspawn weave that rand employed in the stone. he used callandor then and it was mighty effective. Just imagine the kal instead. All the trollocs in the blight would be vapourised before they could a take a single step.

 

 

The only reason the kal was destroyed was because it was just a nuke weapon. You could make all shadowspawn useless with it. Ofcourse the authors could not destroy it just like that so they came up with the too dangerous to use excuse.

[Yates_]

To me, it seems clear that LPD was a dark friend.  In the Strike at Shayol Ghul, we learn that the Dark has been making huge strides in the War.  This indicates that the Dark has agents within the FOL.  LPD was ideally placed for that.  She was instrumental in the development of the Choedan Kol, which could easily have been used to rip open the DO's prison.  Even her plan of erecting a barrier was iffy.  Most of the posts on here assume it might/could/would have worked if the FOL had time. 

 

We don't know that.  Any such play to put a barrier around the DO's prison would have neccesitated operating close to SG, and the effects of that much channeling could have torn open his prison.   All I know is that she was focused on the CK.  Which mysteriously fell into DF' territority, despite them being constructed in the utmost secrecy.  Ditto the access keys.  The CK were impossible to move.  The keys were probably secreted away by the staff of the construction facility before their location could be betrayed.  It is possible that LPD pushed their development all the while planning to hand them to the DO, or to use them to defeat her rivals among the Chosen and THEN free the DO and be named Nae'Blis. 

 

Back to LPD = Darkfriend.  Here is my reasoning.

 

First, the evidence we have.  She argued against what ultimately proved to be a way to seal the prison.  This is bad.  IF she were a Chosen, it would have been a secret.  She would have been a secret agent.  Still, as has been theorized in the books, the DF's have ways of communicating.  Certainly the DO can communicate.  Suppose she told him of LTT's plan.  If the DO knew that plan would work, he would have told her to scupper the plan.  Which she did.  Only LTT acted in secrecy, and it worked.

 

Some people point to her fight against the remaining Dark forces after the Sealing/during the breaking.  What else was she going to do.  It was probably immediately apparant that the strike "worked."  She had betrayed the FOL only to have the FOL lose.  If no one ever found out about the betrayel, she would not be punished.  She had every motivation to fight the Dark.  Without the touch of the DO, and without the majority of the Chosen to lead the Dark, they were done.  It was just a mopping up exercise at that point.  Sure, had the Dark united under one leader, they might still have defeated the FOL.  But the very nature of Darkfriends, their selfishness (thanks Verin), would have prevented this.  Without the DO to enforce obedience and establish a Chain O'Command, there was no chance the Dark would unify.  Infighting probably did as much to defeat the Dark as the FOL.  LPD was smart, and would have realized this.  Thus she became a leader in the fight against the Dark.  The Dark had no chance of winning, so publicly joining them meant only death.  Or Worse.  Not only that, but she probably agressively hunted the Dark to kill what few members of that group could prove she herself was dark. 

 

And her betrayel would have been discovered by the women.  Eventually, during the breaking, the Oath Rods came into being.  Likely as a way of testing to see if someone were Dark, as well as to prove to the common folk that not all channelers were monsters.  One day, LPD had to swear on the oath rod, and she was caught.  Of course the Aes Sedai at the time would have had to kill her.  Even if that didn't happen, the Dark would have killed her either in retaliation, or to hasten the breaking.  Once she betrayed her oaths to the DO, the remaining Dark would have gone after her. 

However she died, the Aes Sedai would have had to cover up her being a Darkfriend.  She was their leader.  She was the architect of the Great Accord which denied women to LTT.  If it were revealed that she had been an agent of the Dark, it would have undermined the legitmacy and the authority of all future female Aes Sedai.  They would have been reduced to mere tools and advisors of future rulers.  They would have had no authority in society.  They would have been reviled by the population, kept around for the sole purpose of dealing with Male channelers.  So they lied about her. 

Even her name, Cuttor of the Shadow, works both ways.  Maybe she cut into the shadow.  Maybe she cut FOR the Shadow.  She certainly sliced the Aes Sedai in twain.

[Suttree]

Sigh. Not this again. LPD is one of the reasons the world even survived the breaking, there was nothing bad about it. LTT's plan was flawed and she was right in holding back the women's strength because the plan was too dangerous even if she didn't pinpoint the correct reason. The pattern likely intervened here to make sure the world had a chance.

 

As an aside she gained the nickname during the Breaking(to try and devalue this calling it mop up is laughable especially considering the fact that Ishy was still loose for 40 years post sealing. If she was the highest ranking df left she sure as hell wouldn't have gone against his wishes) for her work against the shadow, long after the seal had been placed.

[avernite]

I would say it was a lucky break; she was not necessarily right, but her choice was still necessary. Just as LTT's was.

 

LTT's plan was the best possible (but flawed) plan given the fall of the Choedan Kal, and was necessary (we almost know the DO couldn't be sealed away then; it would've messed up the 3rd age). LPD's opposition to executing the plan was wrong, but withholding the women's strength from it was still right and necessary.

 

An odd situation, they both did the right thing despite disagreeing vehemently and opposing eachother.

[Charlz Guybon]

She was probably just Egwene.

 

Anyways, it's clear she was right. If she was a darkfriend, she would have either betrayed LTT's plan or had women go along so Saidar could be tainted too.

[Knivy]

She was probably just Egwene.

 

Anyways, it's clear she was right. If she was a darkfriend, she would have either betrayed LTT's plan or had women go along so Saidar could be tainted too.

 

There is absolutely no way anyone could have predicted the taint.  If her actions were correct, it was in relation to war strategy, not the sealing.  The pattern could also not predict the taint, since it is external to it.  She held back by her own thoughts and ideas.

[Suttree]

She was probably just Egwene.

 

Anyways, it's clear she was right. If she was a darkfriend, she would have either betrayed LTT's plan or had women go along so Saidar could be tainted too.

 

There is absolutely no way anyone could have predicted the taint.  If her actions were correct, it was in relation to war strategy, not the sealing.  The pattern could also not predict the taint, since it is external to it.  She held back by her own thoughts and ideas.

She said the plan was too dangerous and it turned out she was right. One doesn't have to predict the exact reason why it's too dangerous after all. Both LTT and LPD's actions ensured the light had a chance moving forward.

[Charlz Guybon]

She was probably just Egwene.

 

Anyways, it's clear she was right. If she was a darkfriend, she would have either betrayed LTT's plan or had women go along so Saidar could be tainted too.

 

There is absolutely no way anyone could have predicted the taint.  If her actions were correct, it was in relation to war strategy, not the sealing.  The pattern could also not predict the taint, since it is external to it.  She held back by her own thoughts and ideas.

The Dark One could have predicted, and that's who's giving the orders to darkfriends.

[balefired-ed2]

I highly doubt she was a darkfriend, and find the accusation ludicrous. It is possible she was guilty of being a politician and trying to increase her own power. There is one thing I think she was definitely guilty of, though. She was guilty of indecision and being stubborn to the point of stupidity because of her fear.

 

To put it into fighting terms, she had effectively entered into what is called a "silent agreement" with the shadow. By sticking to her plan, she had already accepted failure and was simply waiting for defeat to come.

 

Lews Therin, on the other hand, saw the writing on the wall. The war with the Shadow was entering the 15th round, and the Light was not going to win on points. The Light had to throw the mother of all haymakers to win. Latra called it risky, and she was right. However, Lews' decision was the only right one at the time. Yes, harmful things did happen because of his actions, but he did win in that he gave the light a fighting chance in the long run.

[Suttree]

They both gave the light a fighting chance. No other way to look at it.

[wotfan4472]

Don't forget the DO's hand inthese events with his ability to corrupt people through the bore. With this in mind, the Fateful Concord is a result of the fear and despair that the DO was enforcing across the world, and of course the Forsaken's involvement at this time.

[Viperswhip]

The very great difference is, this time, he doesn't need the Aes Sedai. There are several hundred Aiel channelers as well as Aes Sedai sworn to serve him no matter what Egwene decides. He also has a number of freed damane and, more importantly, Nynaeve, and likely Moiraine, who will go with him no matter what Egwene has to say on the issue. Not that I think it is unlikely that they reach some accord, I am just saying that this time, all the women are not aligned in the same general society.

 

 

[wotfan4472]

I do not blame Latra or Lews Therin. I put all blame on the Forsaken.

 

As was said:

 

1. Demandred, Be' lal and Sammael lead the attack that triggered the Hall's fall, when the Shadow was winning.

 

The Forsaken, I feel would have let Latra think the keys could be found. Graendal or Moghedien were capable of this, considering they knew of them in WH Chapter 13: "Wonderful News".

 

As it turned out the Forsaken were caught unawares with Lews Therin attacked Shayol Ghul.

 

Maybe they were about to open His prison fully, using His reach through the Forsaken's links to Him?

 

Lews Therin's bloodline would have had the Shadow doging every step that the Light took to rebuld, instead of the two major invasions in the next Age.

[Hagazussa]

I do not think she was a darkfriend. If you look at it the argument between LPD and LTT follow the same lines of conflicts between the masculine and the feminine that is so central to the series in general. If we look at research done in our real world then women are less likely to take risks than men, this is on general terms however but it makes sense from an evolutionary point of view as the bottleneck on human propagation are women. If a tribe lost a man then that was an acceptable loss, but a woman could be devastating as a man can produce children with a large number of women but it takes a woman nine months to produce a child. So women have the instinct to stay safe and protect themselves and their families, and men have the instinct to go out and take chances to take down then mammoth and bring back to feed the tribe. Again this is off course on general terms but modern research show that allow of this is left in us.

 

LPD's plan was safer plain and simple, it would not get completely rid of the Dark One but if it worked it would contain him until a safe way to deal with him could be found. LTT's plan had a greater chance of getting rid of the problem once and for all but it carries with it far greater risk. This is also typical stereotypical ways for men and women to think, men are more likely to go for a risk it all to win it all kind of plan, while women are more likely to accept a safer compromise that deals with the problem.

 

Now I do not think that anyone even suspected the taint but basically what LTT did was that he came to the other Aes Sedai and said, hey guys I have this great plan, let's just go an nuke et evil God we are powerful right, and LPD go, ehm...no I do not think that is very wise. What happened next I think have more to do with politics and ego than the Shadow. It was clear that once the Shadow took the town where the access keys where located then LTT's plan was the best one as if the side of the Light put it all in on getting that town back then the forces of the Shadow would understand that there was something special about it and go searching and they might find the access keys and that would be the end, quite literary, LPD's plan was not a viable option anymore, but at this time it had become personal and none of them wanted to back down, that might be stupid but it is not a sign that LPD was a darkfriend.