Trouble for Elayne?

[Ciete]

In CoT (@ work w/no books) when Monelle is "caressing the child" for Elayne, she specifically mentions that Elayne will not be able to channel while she is in labor, but it will come immediately after they are born.

 

Is it just me, or is there something ominous about this statement? I wonder what’s on the horizon for my least favorite wonder girl….

 

[aevogt]

I'm glad you posted this, I have some other observations.

 

I invite you to consider one of Min's viewings.

 

"above Elayne's, (head) a red-hot iron and an axe."

 

Does that sound like someone might being put to the question (red hot iron = torture) and then excecuted (headsmans axe)?

 

Were these things pointing at Elayne or, the thought just occurs, maybe it's indicative of her role as Queen, dispensing justice with an iron hand, going overboard with it.  I doudt that last as she could have sentenced Samwil Hark to a lot more than being a snitch but chose to use him instead. 

 

Min also saw "a severed hand, hot hers"  the meaning of which I don't believe has come to light.

 

 

 

 

[Nerevar]

The severed hand is Rands indicating her link to him. But the hot iron and axe, I'm unsure really, the only prominent axe in the series is Perrin's I believe. It could possibly symbolise her torture by the BA in KoD and the execution of her comrades but I think thats rather shaky.

 

Hopefully it will come together in AMoL.

[Guest leebarr]

Hopeful she will have the babies then get herself killed. I hate her more then i do Nyaneve (mispelled I know}

[aevogt]

The severed hand is Rands indicating her link to him. But the hot iron and axe, I'm unsure really, the only prominent axe in the series is Perrin's I believe. It could possibly symbolise her torture by the BA in KoD and the execution of her comrades but I think thats rather shaky.

 

Hopefully it will come together in AMoL.

 

But Rand's hand isn't severed, it's blown off and gone.  I think it's something else.

[Mat is Better]

Hopeful she will have the babies then get herself killed. I hate her more then i do Nyaneve (mispelled I know}

Really?  What's with the Nynaeve hate?  She is probably the most dedicated of the women to seeing Rand WIN TG.  I mean she is like a mother to all the boys and in the earlier books she was almost as young as they were, so her lack of maturity is excusable.  After she helped Rand cleanse the taint I've had nothing but respect for her.  Elayne on the other hand is a cotton headed ninny muggins, but that is probably a side affect of being heir to the throne.

 

In response to the original post: indeed that definetely sounds like foreshadowing.

[Mat is Better]

The severed hand is Rands indicating her link to him. But the hot iron and axe, I'm unsure really, the only prominent axe in the series is Perrin's I believe. It could possibly symbolise her torture by the BA in KoD and the execution of her comrades but I think thats rather shaky.

 

Hopefully it will come together in AMoL.

 

But Rand's hand isn't severed, it's blown off and gone.  I think it's something else.

I think it's Rand.  Probably just a bad choice of words on RJ's part.  On the other hand if you were Min and saw a vision of somebody missing a hand you'd probably think it was cut off no?

[Cocaloch]

She saw the hand, not the person without it.

[druidravi]

That is  a good theory . Elayne mentions many times that she would be safe since Min predicted she will have normal babies .Is this a foreshadowing?

 

        It might mean she would be not be killed till the moment she bears the babies . This fits in with the Royal line of Andor important to the last battle foretelling . She does something important which saves Rand but results in her death . Also since Aveindha would be their mother if Elayne dies Min's foretelling of something wrong with Aviendhas babies fits.

[Mat is Better]

She saw the hand, not the person without it.

Right, I knew someone was going to call me on that.  I thought about that after I posted, but was too lazy to edit as is evidenced by my double post.  The point of my argument still stands though.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

It might mean she would be not be killed till the moment she bears the babies . This fits in with the Royal line of Andor important to the last battle foretelling . She does something important which saves Rand but results in her death . Also since Aveindha would be their mother if Elayne dies Min's foretelling of something wrong with Aviendhas babies fits. 

 

 

 

Except that Elayne is going to have twins, Mins' viewing has Avi having four children.

[key]

the Royal line of Andor important to the last battle foretelling .

 

At the time of that Foretelling, Rand's mum was the Queen of Andor. I think Rand is quite important to the Last Battle, so I don't think it has anything to do with Elayne.

 

To the original post; it could be ominous, but it could be RJ pointing out that Wise Ones have babies, and know stuff about this. I don't, personally, think it to be too ominous. But, you never know !

 

And the stuff about the severed hand, it could be her connection to Rand - Min's viewings are mostly symbolic. I mean, do you expect that Rand/Mat/Perrin are going to walk into a room in aMoL, and there are lots of fireflies buzzing around them, and lots of dark :P So, it could symbolise that.

Saying that, I don't think it is her connection to Rand. We've never seen any other viewings that are relevant to other people. If it's a viewing about Elayne, it's about Elayne.

[DuDZiK]

The hot iron = torturing thing could be Elayne putting the BA in her custody to the question as a means of finding out some information from them. Remember that at the end of KoD she was mulling over the idea of doing such a thing. The axe I'm not sure about, but I have a hunch. One of her POV thoughts was regarding Perrin and his 'ressurecting' Manetheren, and she basically said that though she loved Rand she would still have to put down his friend's 'rebellion'. The axe could then be a conflict with Perrin over his being 'Lord of the Two Rivers' and the one trying to bring back Manetheren. As for the severed hand... if it's not Rand's I have no idea what it could mean.

[DemandredFO]

Something just occured to me, there are a few severed hand viewings floating around, Perrin chopped of an Aiel's hand and then threw away his axe and made an Aes Sedai heal his stump.  Just a thought.  I have a feeling on or all of the severed hand viewings is that one because Rand is disintegrated, not severed.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

The axe could then be a conflict with Perrin over his being 'Lord of the Two Rivers' and the one trying to bring back Manetheren. As for the severed hand... if it's not Rand's I have no idea what it could mean.

 

Perrin specifically renounced any attempt to resurrect Manetheren in exchange for Seanchen help in fighting the Shaido.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Some have speculated that the "severed hand" represents a part of the Band of the Red Hand, considered "severed" because it is without Mat.  Given that the largest part of the Band was last seen heading into Andor, without Mat, it is a realistic possibility that Elayne will be involved with them somehow.  Especially if they are anywhere near when Rand meets with the Borderlanders, which looks like it will happen in Andor.

[druidravi]

 

Except that Elayne is going to have twins, Mins' viewing has Avi having four children.

 

Aww that sucks  :P

[DuDZiK]

Quote:

 

The axe could then be a conflict with Perrin over his being 'Lord of the Two Rivers' and the one trying to bring back Manetheren. As for the severed hand... if it's not Rand's I have no idea what it could mean.

 

Perrin specifically renounced any attempt to resurrect Manetheren in exchange for Seanchen help in fighting the Shaido.

 

That doesn't matter. A conflict could still arise because Elayne thinks that he is... she doesn't know that Perrin renounced any claims and hated that banner from the start. All she knows is that the Two Rivers has a 'Lord', and that this 'lord' is marching around the lands that used to be part of Manetheren with its banner.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

That doesn't matter. A conflict could still arise because Elayne thinks that he is... she doesn't know that Perrin renounced any claims and hated that banner from the start. All she knows is that the Two Rivers has a 'Lord', and that this 'lord' is marching around the lands that used to be part of Manetheren with its banner.

 

A possible conversation between Elayne and Perrin just prior to TG.

 

Elayne- "How Dare you raise the flag of Maqrethenen in Rebellion against Andor!"

 

Perrin- "It was a ploy to use to bargain with the Seanchen in order to get their help in defeating the Shaido. Anyways, I agreed to Abandon any attempts to raise Marethenen in exchange for that help."

 

Elayne- "How dare you agree to give up raising Marethenen without my approval."

 

Perrin-- His eyes begiining to shine, "Growl."

[aevogt]

"Perrin-- His eyes begiining to shine, "Growl.""

 

Excuse me?  You're talking to the next King of Saldea.  I could have 10,000 Saldean farmgirls here in a half hour and turn Andor into our newest southern province.

[druidravi]

Given that Morgase , Elayne both mistrust Perrin in this case it won't suprise me.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Excuse me?  You're talking to the next King of Saldea.  I could have 10,000 Saldean farmgirls here in a half hour and turn Andor into our newest southern province.

 

Perrin is twice removed from the crown. Tenobia and Bashere both have to die for Faile to become Queen. In which case Perrin will likely be "Prince Consort" not King.

[dlan4327]

I invite you to consider one of Min's viewings.

 

"above Elayne's, (head) a red-hot iron and an axe."

 

Something that just occured to me. The Red Hot Iron and The Axe have been interpreted as torture by some of the people on this board, could it possibly be referring to Morgase's torture by the Whitecloaks?

[nashdude]

Okay, maybe we can go in a different direction with this thing. The following are copy+pastes of Min's Viewings...

 

ELAYNE (WH): "'She'll get with child from this. Two of them; a boy and a girl; both healthy and strong.'"

 

AVIENDHA (WH): "Aviendha would have Rand's babies too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd."

 

First of all, let's dispell the possibility of Elayne's babies being Avi's. Note the timing to Avi's births---four at once. Elayne will also have a multiple birth---two at once. These are obviously two different sets of babies. And as far as "something odd" about Avi's babies, I think it will probably have something to do with the OP. Remember, Min cannot see or sense the OP. And whatever she feels concerning what's "odd" about Avi's babies, she doesn't seem alarmed by it in any way. Likely, the babies will be born with the "spark" of the OP.

 

On to the other viewings...

 

RAND (EotW): A sword that isn't a sword, A golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, him pouring water on sand, three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it, A bloody hand and a white hot iron, and black rocks wet with blood.

 

ELAYNE (tGH): Elayne tells Egwene: "She [Min] said I'd have to share my husband with two other women, and I'd never put up with that." Also, the Rose Crown of Andor, and a severed hand (not hers).

 

ELAYNE (tGH): A red-hot iron and an axe.

 

These could mean a number of things (I have yet to read KoD, so I may misrepresent something). When Rand loses his hand, the "white hot iron" might refer to the cauterizing effect of how Rand loses the hand.

 

Or... the hand and the iron are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS! Consider this.

 

As someone else mentioned, "Lord Perrin of the Two Rivers" presents a bit of a problem for Elayne. Note now Elayne's last viewing---a red-hot iron and an axe. The axe is Perrin's prefered (albeit hated) weapon. The red-hot/white-hot iron may be a reference to Perrin's chosen profession---a blacksmith. Also, between the three ta'veren, Rand and Perrin remain the closest, while Mat tends to drift off in his own direction. This continued partnership between Rand and Perrin follows with one of Min's other viewings...

 

RAND and PERRIN (LoC): "When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever.... But with two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you [Rand]...." "If he's not, something bad will happen to you." "Very bad." Rand: "Then I'll just have to keep him around." Min: "I don't know that that will be enough, it will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

 

[DuDZiK]

Ah... one thing I just realized that I had forgotten about the viewing possibly being about Perrin, is that he has now abandoned his axe... seemingly for good. He has now taken up his hammer. So unless the axe of his makes a comeback, or that vision has already been fulfilled somehow, then my theory won't really work.