4th Oath.

[Angel of Death]

I just had a thought reading a few other posts, to do with prevention against the Black Ajah.

 

Now RJ stated that sisters with the potential of being black are studied and approached cautiously (probably over the period of 5 - 10 years). But at some point a black sister would have to reveal themselves to the candidate eventually. The candidate then becomes black or dies. I was thinking of how effective a 4th oath world be against this. Such as screaming black at the top of there lungs the second they find out. (Yes the sister will kill them, but hey they were gonna die any way, or become black). While this may not capture the sister, it will certainly stop them from trying to recruit.

 

Another thought on a 4th oath would be (not sure if this will work) but swearing not to forsake any of the oaths taken.

 

I know very few sisters believe in the black (besides the black that is, obviously), but when/if Egwene becomes 'full' Amyrlin, she could possibly introduce this. (Even after TG the DO is sure to still have followers)

 

Now this isn't something I think will or should happen, I'm just wondering how effective it will be.

[CUBAREY]

Problem with the first suggestion is that they would recruit in a secluded setting where a scream would not help. Coming to think about it, they probably do this now anyways.

 

The second suggestion might be an answer but it would of course destroy the ability of a sister to give up the oaths and retire into the Kin as Egwene would like at least to make optional.

[Angel of Death]

Problem with the first suggestion is that they would recruit in a secluded setting where a scream would not help. Coming to think about it, they probably do this now anyways.

 

 

Some good points there, but for the first one, i was thinking more of not being able to stop. Just trying to get a sister screaming black near the rod. (considering others will know why), I imagine it will be just as hard to get the rod to them.

 

It will at least make it more difficult to recruit.

[dyring]

All the need to do is make themself private with a ward... like many sisters do when wanting to speak of something private, so wouldent rouse that much suspision.

 

 

Also, a fourth oath, wht that, another 100 year of life gone? So potential life length of 600 ish, down to 200? kinda a waste I would say.

 

The oaths hurt more than they help in my mind. Use the oath rod in trials.Temporary oaths of not lying, but with added "the whole truth, nothing but the truth". Just make them swear that and ask if they did it.

The bad effekt of such an oath should be negliable if its removed after a few hours.

 

 

 

 

[TwoRiversWI]

What about the ring of 13 compulsion?

 

Didn't that one captured black ajah talk about how they punish and compel the members of the black ajah?

 

Why kill someone who does not want to be a member of the black ajah? Just turn them black with the ring of 13 like Egwene's testing foreshadowed?

 

Also, why is the white tower not completely members of the black ajah?

 

Think about it, they have hundreds of years to kidnap, ambush, drug, shield, or any means you can think of to corner each and every sister and her warders and compel/turn them to turn black ajah.

 

It may be much more difficult to keep the warders in line but they could lure sisters away from their warders and just turn them and not the warders.

 

Yes, there could be a problem forcing the sister to mask her bond when they are captured. I admit that, but what about when they are novices or accepted or newly raised?

 

This could explain why the black ajah seems to be heavily populated with red ajah. They are the easiest to corner and capture. They have no warder bond they lets someone know they are in danger.

 

TwoRivers Born.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wvlr]

Personally, I would prefer for all AS to have to periodically remove and replace the oaths while swearing (under the OR) that they have never been Darkfriends.   

 

Actually, there is no need to leave the oaths active all the time.    Just say every two years or so, they have then swear on the OR to tell the truth and nothing but the full truth for 24 hours and then have them quized "Are you BA?",    "Have you made a OP weapon to kill a man?"  "Have you not killed with the OP except to save yourself, other AS and your Warder?"  With them only swearing for 24 hours - it might even automattically "disapate" so that they do not have the terriable pain effects or using the OR to remove previous oaths.  (not sure about that part but it would be worth a try)

[Elgee]

Or make a new Oath Rod without the bad side-effects ?

[DemandredFO]

Elayne is the only one that can make ter'angreal and she can't make ones that complicated, at least I don't think.  Maybe in 100 years or so, if Egwene hasn't screwed up too badly by then.

[dlan4327]

A 4th oath wouldn't make any difference would it. Don't the black ajah oaths override any and all previous oaths? So a 4th oath to swear not to forsake the other oaths, that's a mouthful, would simply be overruled, right? ???

[Tyrell]

A 4th oath wouldn't make any difference would it. Don't the black ajah oaths override any and all previous oaths? So a 4th oath to swear not to forsake the other oaths, that's a mouthful, would simply be overruled, right? ???

 

No.

 

To join the black first you need to forswear your previous three on the rod before swearing a new three. If you've sworn never to remove the oaths then you cant remove them.

[wvlr]

Elayne is the only one that can make ter'angreal and she can't make ones that complicated, at least I don't think.  Maybe in 100 years or so, if Egwene hasn't screwed up too badly by then.

 

No.    The Seachan have many damane that can make them.    They mostly just make the A'dams though but I am sure that they could be taught to make other things.   

 

Speaking of that though, Elayne WAS able to change the design of some things that she made - like the A'dam that she used on Morgy that did not have the leash.

 

I would love to see her make a bunch of a'dams that reversed the function.    Where the "Braclet" acted like a "collar" and visa versa.    Then put them in the Seanchan supply chain.    It would be very funny to see Sul'dam putting collars on assorted female channelers only to find themselves "collared".

[Nelal Hurcran]

Actually, there is no need to leave the oaths active all the time.

 

If they never leave the Tower, that might be true. But the Oaths aren't for the Tower, they are for everybody the Tower might want to manipulate. Without the Oaths, no one would trust the AS, and the Tower's overall meddling powers would practically disappear. The Oaths are just a way of saying to the world "Look! We're not bad guys! Let us tell you how to run everything!" And with the obvious exception of the Children, it seems to be working.

 

 

The second suggestion might be an answer but it would of course destroy the ability of a sister to give up the oaths and retire into the Kin as Egwene would like at least to make optional.

 

Maybe if it was more like this:

 

"....and to never forsake any Oath I have mad, except in the presence of the Amrylin Seat."

 

There are probably lots loopholes in that, but unless the Amrylin herself is black, I can't think of any.

[BKVMC]

I  think we will see less oaths  not more  the  removal  of the oaths  seems to me to be related to  reuniting the  aes sedai  male and female under one organization  again.

[Luckers]

Quote

Actually, there is no need to leave the oaths active all the time.

 

If they never leave the Tower, that might be true. But the Oaths aren't for the Tower, they are for everybody the Tower might want to manipulate. Without the Oaths, no one would trust the AS, and the Tower's overall meddling powers would practically disappear. The Oaths are just a way of saying to the world "Look! We're not bad guys! Let us tell you how to run everything!" And with the obvious exception of the Children, it seems to be working.

 

Really? It seems to me that the oaths A) make everyone preternaturally aware to Aes Sedai attempting to decieve them, which is hardly condusive with trust, and B) leave everyone with the impression that deep down Aes Sedai are lying, murdering, weaponmongers, which again, is not what good impressions are made from.

 

The Wise Ones do just fine without Oaths, so do the Kin. The problem is not in what Aes Sedai are capable of, its in the way they treat people.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

The Wise Ones do just fine without Oaths, so do the Kin. The problem is not in what Aes Sedai are capable of, its in the way they treat people.

 

The kin do not attempt to manipulate Randland leaders. While the Wise Ones do attempt to manipulate the Aiel Chiefs it should be remembered that a large portion of the Wise Ones do not channel. The reason that the three oaths were necessary for A.S. is that their lying, killing with the power, and making weapons with the power, got so out of hand that no Randland leader could trust them in any way. And that is a far cry from knowing that A.S. are tricky and that you have to watch what they say very carefully. The three oaths are not perfect tools in calming the fears of non-channelers but they do lower the level of misapprehension.

[Luckers]

The kin do not attempt to manipulate Randland leaders. While the Wise Ones do attempt to manipulate the Aiel Chiefs it should be remembered that a large portion of the Wise Ones do not channel. The reason that the three oaths were necessary for A.S. is that their lying, killing with the power, and making weapons with the power, got so out of hand that no Randland leader could trust them in any way. And that is a far cry from knowing that A.S. are tricky and that you have to watch what they say very carefully. The three oaths are not perfect tools in calming the fears of non-channelers but they do lower the level of misapprehension.

 

Firstly, I believe I stated that the issue is specifically in the methodology of the way that Aes Sedai deal with others. Their high handedness is the basis of the lack of trust between Aes Sedai and the average Randlander. They actively attempt to manipulate over simply telling people why they feel something should be done, and it is detrimental.

 

Now, that being said, I fail to see the distinctions you are making. The Kin are treated with respect, and are deferred to. The Wise Ones are much the same. Both have the ability to channel, and in the case of the Wise Ones it is known. Irrespectively, they are still trusted, and deferred to.

 

As for your comment about the nessisity of the oaths, that is not true. There are no indications that the Aes Sedai were overly given to lying or killing with the Power--indeed, given the relative respect in which they were held during the time of the Ten Nations i would say that such a comment is patently wrong.

 

The Aes Sedai swore the oaths to placate peoples fears, fears that, as far as the histories we know relate, stem more from Aes Sedai high handedness and manipulation than from lying or using the power as weapon--and the oath about making weapons is specifically linked to the destruction in the War of the Shadow so clearly not an issue.

 

Ultimately it was the wrong method, to my mind. You dont attempt to placate people by binding yourself. That just suggests to them that they were correct in their fears, and they just become more preternaturally aware to the idea that you are looking for ways around the restrictions in order that you may achieve what you have just confirmed in their minds is your intention.

 

What the Aes Sedai should do is de-centralize. Open centres in every major metropolitan area--the best way would be to focus it around healing. Make it into a hospice, and include non-channelers. Indeed, if they played it right they could set up being Aes Sedai trained in herbs as being a mark of high ability. At the same time get information out there about the ability to channel. Make sure people are informed about the dangers of learning oneself, and about the nature of sparking.

 

They need to be seen, and they need to be seen doing good deeds. They need not give up their mysteriousness, or their social prestige or power, but they do need to be seen as working for the community, as opposed to using it for their own good.

 

Either way, the answer was never in binding themselves, as indeed the current realities prove.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

What the Aes Sedai should do is de-centralize. Open centres in every major metropolitan area--the best way would be to focus it around healing. Make it into a hospice, and include non-channelers. Indeed, if they played it right they could set up being Aes Sedai trained in herbs as being a mark of high ability. At the same time get information out there about the ability to channel. Make sure people are informed about the dangers of learning oneself, and about the nature of sparking.

 

Its easy to suggest that A.S. should become an altruistic organization, decentralized and compassionate. However, its not very realistic the Tower evolved devolved over time to become its institution it is today. I say devolved because your description is not too far away from the A.S. organization of the Age of Legends. The war of Power and the Breaking lead to a cataclysm that required the A.S. to become what they presently are. It will take a similarly drastic change in society for them to change into what you suggest. Its definitely, a better choice then their present state. However, the trick is how to get to this Utopian organization when you have to deal with Medieval type problems.

[Tyrell]

It'll help when TG rolls around and a good portion of the Aes Sedai oldies get killed, although Egwene doesn't seem so keen on changing things anymore, like it or not she's fast becomming a model modern Aes Sedai.

[Elgee]

Remember that Egwene has the example of the Aiel Wise Ones, and Nynaeve and Elaine that of the Kin.  Surely that will have an impact in the future?

[Luckers]

Its easy to suggest that A.S. should become an altruistic organization, decentralized and compassionate. However, its not very realistic the Tower evolved devolved over time to become its institution it is today. I say devolved because your description is not too far away from the A.S. organization of the Age of Legends. The war of Power and the Breaking lead to a cataclysm that required the A.S. to become what they presently are. It will take a similarly drastic change in society for them to change into what you suggest. Its definitely, a better choice then their present state. However, the trick is how to get to this Utopian organization when you have to deal with Medieval type problems.

 

I never suggested that they should become altruistic, and decentralising at this stage is anything but easy, but it is nessasary. The ideal behind the oaths and Aes Sedai hermitage is not working.

 

I don't see how its a medieval issue though. The cause of this is simple hubris mixed with a very effective indoctrinatory process--its the same sort of self-destructive mentality that allowed the US military to kick out 10,000 gay soldiers during a time of war. Prejudice justified by a desire to maintain ones own integrity.

 

Of course the method for their change is in place. The older novices are not going to be as easily indoctrinated, and with Wise Ones, Windfinders and Asha'men around to give them a slap when they overstep themselves, the Aes Sedai are going to have to learn constraint, and in time that will allow themselves the facilities to look more objectively at their own state--its much the same method that Cadsuane is using with Rand, only this is undirected.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

I don't see how its a medieval issue though.

 

The reason that the A.S. founded the White Tower after the breaking was that after the end of the Utopian Era of the Age of Legends the A.S. fount that life was short, brutish and nasty, even for channelers. While the conditions have improved somewhat, Wars, instability and the general mistrust of channelers still persists. Moreover being part of a higherarchical order has allowed A.S. in general to wield real power. the process of decentralizing will therefore likely go only as fast as the process of stabilization in the fourth Age. As a see a period of intense warfare and instability at the beginning of the Fourth Age I do not believe your view of a decentralized A.S. will materialize anytime soon.

[Elgee]

Moreover being part of a higherarchical order has allowed A.S. in general to wield real power.

 

A what  ???

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thats a technical "legal" term.  The "normal" term would be hierarchical.  As in, "of, related to, or arranged in a hierarchy".

[Elgee]

Thank you, Robert.  I thought at first he meant hierarchical, but then I thought: naaaahh ... them there is fancy big lawyer word aah's too stoopid to unnerstand.  ;)

[CUBAREY]

Don't make fun of my spelling if I ever actually got used to using a "spell checker" there would be no further need for at least two paralegals at my firm. Do you want to be respomsible for increasing the unemployment rate? :D