Olver - Little Bit Creepy

[RobertAlexWillis]

Gaidal Cain was last seen in Tel'aran'rhiod in TSR ch 52.  In TFoH ch 14 Birgitte says he has been spun out.  Therefore, he was spun out sometime around the beginning of TFoH.  That is less than 300 days from the end of Knife of Dreams.  Gaidal Cain is currently an infant less than one year old.

[bcxanth]

Gaidal Cain was last seen in Tel'aran'rhiod in TSR ch 52.  In TFoH ch 14 Birgitte says he has been spun out.  Therefore, he was spun out sometime around the beginning of TFoH.  That is less than 300 days from the end of Knife of Dreams.  Gaidal Cain is currently an infant less than one year old.

This is correct. Because regardless of how fast or slow time in T'A'R goes, it always goes forward, but it never goes into the future. That means that real world time does define an endpoint for the latest it could be. Because even if that 300 days only seemed like two years in T'A'R, it'd still only be 300 days in the real world.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Hey, don't beat me up just for being right, 300 days is less than 2 years. :'(

 

I went with 2 years because, when I posted, I had no way of verifying at which point it was that he was last seen.  I just knew 2 years covered it.

[dmanmiller34]

Even if Brigette has become unbound I beleive that her deeds through out the series will requalify her to be rebound. Autur Hawkwing himself said that the wheel often adds to the number of people spun out or something to that effect when they lead the attack on Falme. So that leads to the question of How does one become bound to the Horn in the first place or qualify to be spun out again and again like Brigette and Gaidal?

[bcxanth]

Hey, don't beat me up just for being right, 300 days is less than 2 years. :'(

 

I went with 2 years because, when I posted, I had no way of verifying at which point it was that he was last seen.  I just knew 2 years covered it.

I wasn't trying to beat you up about it. :P It was directed toward the person who had said several posts back that because of the fact that time can move faster in T'A'R that Gaidal could have been born and already be 30 years old because of it.

[Majsju]

Speaking of Olver, and him being someone reborn, I found a most amusing theory over at Theoryland.

 

Now, before you start throwing things, let me just make it clear that I do not agree wth this, m'kay :D

 

Olver is Mat Cauthon Reborn

 

      Proof:

 

1. Writing style and tone: Stylistically, Jordan writes Olver as a young version of Mat.

 

2. Jordan’s DragonCon 2005 RAFO about meeting yourself: ( link )

 

Question by Aan’ allein: A couple of related questions on souls. Can they be split? Is it true you can meet yourself in the worlds of If, is that a copy of the soul, a reflection, or the same soul living in different worlds.

 

Jordan: I think I will have to give you a RAFO on this, except for the part, souls cannot be split, but the other, I think I will have to give you a RAFO because I may be doing something with that.

 

3. Mat is the only Ta’veren to die. He’s died twice, in fact—once to Forsaken lighting (undone by Rand’s Balefire) and once by Finn hanging. At the instant of Mat’s death, the Pattern replaced its lost Ta’veren by transforming Olver.

 

4. Moiraine draws a distinction between “Mat” and “young Mat” in her farewell letter to Thom. “Young Mat” actually refers to Olver. (bolding is my own)

 

"My dearest Thom, There are many words I would like to write to you, words from my heart, but I have put this off because I knew that I must, and now there is little time. There are many things I cannot tell you lest I bring disaster, but what I can, I will. Heed carefully what I say. In a short while I will go down to the docks, and there I will confront Lanfear. How can I know that? That secret belongs to others. Suffice it that I know, and let that foreknowledge stand as proof for the rest of what I say.

 

When you receive this, you will be told that I am dead. All will believe that. I am not dead, and it may be that I shall live to my appointed years. It also may be that you and Mat Cauthon and another, a man I do not know, will try to rescue me. May, I say because it may be that you will not or cannot, or because Mat may refuse. He does not hold me in the affection you seem to, and he has his reasons which he no doubt thinks are good. If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all. Even if you come only with Mat and one other, death also may come. I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen all of us live and die as captives. Should you decide to make the attempt anyway, young Mat knows the way to find me, yet you must not show him this letter until he asks about it. That is of the utmost importance. Events must play out in certain ways, whatever the costs.

 

If you see Lan again, tell him that all of this is for the best. His destiny follows a different path from mine. I wish him all happiness with Nynaeve.

 

A final point. Remember what you know about the game of Snakes and Foxes. Remember, and heed.

 

It is time, and I must do what must be done.

 

May the Light illumine you and give you joy, my dearest Thom, whether or not we ever see one another again. Moiraine

 

5. Mat is sure that Snakes and Foxes can be won fairly, and we’ve read many paradoxical predictions about the game and Finnland. A second Mat who’s never officially visited Finnland before can make it work—more questions and more wishes.

 

6. Olver satisfies the “laughing face” part of Min’s viewing for Mat.

 

WEAKNESSES

 

1. “Didn’t Mat die twice? If this theory is true, then why aren’t there two replacements for Mat?”

 

 

 

Maybe one of Mat’s deaths doesn’t count. Maybe the Balefire-resurrection glitched out the Pattern and transformed Olver. I don’t have definites here, this is still a theory.

 

2. “Your theory is based on the Scooby gang saving Moiraine from the Finns!”

 

True, but that’s a whole other can of worms.

 

3. “Olver is just learning bad habits from Mat, he’s not a reincarnation.”

 

Very possible, and I can’t directly refute this. I still stand behind my theory above.

 

(Thanks to Madoc Comardin’s 11-09-05 theory about decoding Moiraine’s letter to Thom)

 

 

 

http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=125&theo=2550

 

Sometimes, a nicely put together loony theory does give a good deal of amusement :)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Shall we now list all the reasons why, since Olver can't be Gaidal, he can't be Mat?  Please say we don't need to as it should be obvious.

[Majsju]

If you click the link, all reasons necessary to prove the theory wrong are provided there.

 

It is just for amusement, folks.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Don't worry, I not about to start.  I just had nightmares of someone reading that and deciding to start another flame worthy thread over it. 

 

I'll pass on the link.  Reading through what you posted makes it look like the person was so disappointed with Olver not be Gaidal that he just couldn't let go.  So he substituted Mat hoping no one would realize all the problems with Gaidal, with the exception of RJ actually shooting it down, were there.

 

[Despair]

I'm thinking that this one has gone way off topic.  Olver was described by Mat as "possibly the ugliest boy he had ever seen".  Within 2 books, Olver is racing horses, wooing women, gambling, and just plain having fun.  And 10 years old.  I dont think he is creepy, I envy him!!!!

[Davram]

Olver is creepy yes.  But, we all would if everything we ever cared about was destroyed by savages and our whole world came crashing down.

[trakand01]

My did I open up a can of worms...  ;)

[Davram]

???What lol

[Lune]

That boy is a little male Lolita :P

 

I think most guys would envy him, so ugly and yet always managing to score. He's sat in more laps and put his head on more bosoms than half the Band.

[Davram]

I guess

[Sharaman]

He's a dwarf-forsaken or forsaken-in-training. He's creepy, he's lecherous and he used compulsion to make women fall for him. Case closed.

[OptimusPrime]

<3 Oliver, I think he's among my favorites in the series XD

 

And I wonder whether RJ maybe meant something more specific then responsibility, which he definantly accomplished.

 

Like reminding Mat of what it takes to win at Snakes and Foxes?  From the beginning, Mat drew similarities between snakes and foxes to the Ael'finn and Eel'finn, but never really connected them with a kids game.

 

The only way to win is to cheat. If I remember rightly, you cant possibly win Snakes and Foxes.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Olver is Mat's protege. I can totally see Olver growing up to be a badass of a level rivaling Lan. He has great teachers, is constantly around one of the greatest military minds ever, has soldiers teaching him how to use a sword, has one of the greatest people ever around him, has been adopted by Mat, and is already awesome.

[bigWalt]

Olver is Mat's protege. I can totally see Olver growing up to be a badass of a level rivaling Lan. He has great teachers, is constantly around one of the greatest military minds ever, has soldiers teaching him how to use a sword, has one of the greatest people ever around him, has been adopted by Mat, and is already awesome.

Good point except Lan was practically handling the sword when he was in a crib and his 'uncles' began training him when he was a toddler.  But still a good point Olver will be quite knowledgable about war craft when he grows up if he does not get himself killed off that is.

[sheikh chilli]

This may be just me, and on my current re-read of the books he hasnt appeared yet so there may be something that changes my mind, but does anyone else find Olver slightly... creepy? He's so into the women, he's taking after Mat big time, but to my memory he's about what... 10?

 

I cant remember where he came from (how he came to be with Mat) can someone remind me? Do we think he has a purpose?

 

 

 

i was 11 when i first started flirting with my chemistry teacher. so nothing unsual about the whole thing. hell even the teacher was kinda in to me. only the warnings of my best friend who knew what was happening stopped me from snowballing the whole thing

[Padraic_Seebrr]

This may be just me, and on my current re-read of the books he hasnt appeared yet so there may be something that changes my mind, but does anyone else find Olver slightly... creepy? He's so into the women, he's taking after Mat big time, but to my memory he's about what... 10?

 

I cant remember where he came from (how he came to be with Mat) can someone remind me? Do we think he has a purpose?

 

 

 

i was 11 when i first started flirting with my chemistry teacher. so nothing unsual about the whole thing. hell even the teacher was kinda in to me. only the warnings of my best friend who knew what was happening stopped me from snowballing the whole thing

 

I think that might have been a swelling of your ego :P. I mean, 11? There is nothing attractive about a 11 year old boy. Though I may be biased since I am a guy.

[sheikh chilli]

This may be just me, and on my current re-read of the books he hasnt appeared yet so there may be something that changes my mind, but does anyone else find Olver slightly... creepy? He's so into the women, he's taking after Mat big time, but to my memory he's about what... 10?

 

I cant remember where he came from (how he came to be with Mat) can someone remind me? Do we think he has a purpose?

 

 

 

i was 11 when i first started flirting with my chemistry teacher. so nothing unsual about the whole thing. hell even the teacher was kinda in to me. only the warnings of my best friend who knew what was happening stopped me from snowballing the whole thing

 

I think that might have been a swelling of your ego :P. I mean, 11? There is nothing attractive about a 11 year old boy. Though I may be biased since I am a guy.

 

well i always thought why would a teacher ever flirt with me and give me strange looks and secretive smiles. that is until my mom showed me picture of mine when i was a kid. all i can say is i don't blame her :P. that might sound like my ego swelling but trust me. i looked positively cherubic 8) ;)

[Blackhoof]

i suppose olvers a little creepy, im 13 and i still haven't started really.... "noticing" girls. (not that i let my friends know that, of course  ;) )

[VinedC]

Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but I couldn't find any other Olver threads.

 

I was reading Lord of Chaos last night and came across the following nugget which I couldn't help but find telling:

 

"For Aviendhas part, Olver seemed to make her uneasy, which Mat did not understand at all". This is stated just after it mentions his parents killed by Aeil and him trying to stab Aviendha. Considering how RJ continuously portrays the Aeil, I don't see him using this line casually to infer that he is a creepy kid, or that his trying to stab Aviendha bothered her. I think Aviendha senses something about him; perhaps she even has another undiscovered Talent, I dunno.

 

Either way, this line intrigues me.

[sleepinghour]

"For Aviendhas part, Olver seemed to make her uneasy, which Mat did not understand at all". This is stated just after it mentions his parents killed by Aeil and him trying to stab Aviendha. Considering how RJ continuously portrays the Aeil, I don't see him using this line casually to infer that he is a creepy kid, or that his trying to stab Aviendha bothered her. I think Aviendha senses something about him; perhaps she even has another undiscovered Talent, I dunno.

Aiel hold Cairhienin ("Treekillers") in contempt, and Aviendha was probably unsettled by the fact that this time it was the Aiel who behaved dishonorably and orphaned a child. By the end of ACoS:

 

Suddenly he was deluged with offers of help, not just Nynaeve and Elayne proposing to put off going to the farm, but Lan and Birgitte and Aviendha offering to join the search. Lan was stone cold about it, grim as ever, but Birgitte and Aviendha...

"My heart would break if anything happened to that boy," Birgitte said, and Aviendha added, just as warmly, "I have always said you do not care for him properly."