The Show Has Been Cancelled

[WoTwasThat]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

Yeah.  It’s a rhetorical question in response to the assertion that the prologue was fully explained in the first 50 pages.

Did I say “fully”? I think I said “mostly.” Your nit is irrelevant to my broader point. The point is, that within the first 50 pages you understand the following things you saw in the prologue:

1. Dragon

2. Tried to beat the Dark One.

3. Tainted his magic source - something called Saidin - in the process.

4. Went crazy.

5. Killed his family. 
6. Killed himself.

7. He’s gonna be reborn.

8. Nobody’s quite sure if that’ll be good or bad, but prolly both.

 

AWESOME!!!

 

Meanwhile the prologue detractors can only argue “yeah, but ‘nine rods of dominion’ is hella confusing and the non-book readers woulda been way too stooopid to appreciate any of this.” It’s a pretty lame argument that just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny if you go back and read the first 50 pages. 

Edited June 5 by WoTwasThat

[Mailman]

12 hours ago, Samt said:

I’ve simply stated that I was confused.  Explaining that I shouldn’t have been doesn’t change the fact that I was.  
 

Moreover, your explanation seems to acknowledge the fact that the prologue doesn’t really explain much.  It builds the mystery and sense of history.  It doesn’t tell us who the characters are or how they relate to what happens in chapter 1.  
 

Also, claiming that it quickly becomes clear who the characters of the prologue are in the present story is simply not true.  It takes a few books before it is clear that the Baalzamon of the early books is actually Ishmael from the prologue and not the dark one himself.  Rand being LTT is perhaps clear sooner, but it’s not until Zen Rand that the relationship between the two halves is really resolved.  

 

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Exactly!! 
I found the prologue incomprehensible the first time I read it too. 

And I was simply explaining why I did not think it was confusing.

[VooDooNut]

I don't mind the show being canceled, but I really hope Rosamund Pike finishes narrating the series. She is a very talented voice-actor. 

[Bodewhin]

The prologue in Eye of The World is fascinating - but I didn't have a problem not including it as the show's open. 

 

I had no idea this was a controversial opinion but...

 

I actually liked the opening of the S1 E1 - it setup a quest and I liked how it was filmed. It set a good pace to get things rolling imo. 

 

Oddly, I missed the moment where Rand and Tam were traveling to town and Rand sees the Fade - more than wishing for the prologue. 

 

I really don't see how the absence of the prologue led to what I saw as bigger problems in the series from a book standpoint - or can be blamed for the cancellation, not hooking viewers more readily. 

 

Watching the first episode with a non book reader, they were able to grasp the story fine with how it opened. 

[nsmallw]

On 5/25/2025 at 8:41 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Incorrect. Amazon is contractually obligated to air five seasons. 

Too bad Rafe couldn't get a similar deal, that way at least he would've had more control on how the show would end rather than this ignominious way .

[king of nowhere]

On 6/5/2025 at 6:07 PM, WoTwasThat said:

Did I say “fully”? I think I said “mostly.” Your nit is irrelevant to my broader point. The point is, that within the first 50 pages you understand the following things you saw in the prologue:

1. Dragon

2. Tried to beat the Dark One.

3. Tainted his magic source - something called Saidin - in the process.

4. Went crazy.

5. Killed his family. 
6. Killed himself.

7. He’s gonna be reborn.

8. Nobody’s quite sure if that’ll be good or bad, but prolly both.

 

AWESOME!!!

it would be awesome if it worked like you say.

And as I said, maybe you are just a more perceptive reader than I was when I picked up the first book the first time. You probably were, at the time I was in my late teens reading in a foreign language on which I wasn't fully proficient.

The fact remains that I, within the first 50 pages, hadn't understood much of what you say. What hooked the book for me was winternight and what followed. 

Yes, thinking in retrospect, the pieces of the lore were there. The problem is, just like with the prologue, they were drowned in so much irrelevant fluff, I didn't pick them. You could understand all that stuff in the first 50 pages, in the same way that you can figure out who is the murdered in a detective book is within the first 50 pages if you follow the right clues.

 

If it was only me having this problem, you could just dismiss it as me having no experience with big fantasy sagas at the time. But a lot of people are saying they had a problem with the prologue. Face it, the execution was botched. RJ had an awesome idea for a setup, but he put so much fluff around it, it left many readers utterly confused and unable to pick up the actually important stuff.

 

[Skipp]

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

it would be awesome if it worked like you say.

And as I said, maybe you are just a more perceptive reader than I was when I picked up the first book the first time. You probably were, at the time I was in my late teens reading in a foreign language on which I wasn't fully proficient.

The fact remains that I, within the first 50 pages, hadn't understood much of what you say. What hooked the book for me was winternight and what followed. 

Yes, thinking in retrospect, the pieces of the lore were there. The problem is, just like with the prologue, they were drowned in so much irrelevant fluff, I didn't pick them. You could understand all that stuff in the first 50 pages, in the same way that you can figure out who is the murdered in a detective book is within the first 50 pages if you follow the right clues.

 

If it was only me having this problem, you could just dismiss it as me having no experience with big fantasy sagas at the time. But a lot of people are saying they had a problem with the prologue. Face it, the execution was botched. RJ had an awesome idea for a setup, but he put so much fluff around it, it left many readers utterly confused and unable to pick up the actually important stuff.

 

 

This is why the series is often describe as awesome to read but MORE awesome to re-read.

[Guire]

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

it would be awesome if it worked like you say.

And as I said, maybe you are just a more perceptive reader than I was when I picked up the first book the first time. You probably were, at the time I was in my late teens reading in a foreign language on which I wasn't fully proficient.

The fact remains that I, within the first 50 pages, hadn't understood much of what you say. What hooked the book for me was winternight and what followed. 

Yes, thinking in retrospect, the pieces of the lore were there. The problem is, just like with the prologue, they were drowned in so much irrelevant fluff, I didn't pick them. You could understand all that stuff in the first 50 pages, in the same way that you can figure out who is the murdered in a detective book is within the first 50 pages if you follow the right clues.

 

If it was only me having this problem, you could just dismiss it as me having no experience with big fantasy sagas at the time. But a lot of people are saying they had a problem with the prologue. Face it, the execution was botched. RJ had an awesome idea for a setup, but he put so much fluff around it, it left many readers utterly confused and unable to pick up the actually important stuff.

 

I think I was the exact perfect demo for these books.  I read first 3 back to back about a year after release. I was 20 and fairly well read in fantasy at time.  First 3 books are really a product of the time.  I don't remember prologue being confusing or boring because other stories used similar displaced scenes.  Honestly it could be slightly reworked and make as much sense as show scene stilling the runner or women's circle stress test of Egwene.  Reality is Rafe and Amazon wanted a feminist story and a mystery box so we got what we got.  Not because season one was a better TV adaptation. 

[Guire]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

This is why the series is often describe as awesome to read but MORE awesome to re-read.

With hind sight I would say it's only really great on re-reads.  Also spacing books out with re-reads of certain books before advancing.  I don't recommend the series because of that.  Also modern fantasy readers are too detached from certain cultural ideas to not be offended by things in books. I assume there are more interesting newer series that don't cause so much angst and take less than a year to read.

[WoTwasThat]

3 hours ago, Guire said:

Reality is Rafe and Amazon wanted a feminist story and a mystery box so we got what we got.  Not because season one was a better TV adaptation. 

I have zero proof of this, but I’m convinced that Rafe pitched WOT to Amazon as “LOTR / GOT for women!!”

[king of nowhere]

18 hours ago, Guire said:

I think I was the exact perfect demo for these books.  I read first 3 back to back about a year after release. I was 20 and fairly well read in fantasy at time.  First 3 books are really a product of the time.  I don't remember prologue being confusing or boring because other stories used similar displaced scenes.  Honestly it could be slightly reworked and make as much sense as show scene stilling the runner or women's circle stress test of Egwene.  Reality is Rafe and Amazon wanted a feminist story and a mystery box so we got what we got.  Not because season one was a better TV adaptation. 

 

14 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

I have zero proof of this, but I’m convinced that Rafe pitched WOT to Amazon as “LOTR / GOT for women!!”

what rafe wanted, what the executives wanted, what was pitched, or the tv beginning working even less, all this has absolutely zero bearing on whether the book prologue would have been a good start, or not.

I argue that the book prologue, as it is, is needlessly confusing to first time readers, to the point that even many who became long standing fans of the books didn't like it.

I argue that, for a tv adaptation, a different scene, or at least a version of the book prologue heavily edited for clarity, would have been better.

 

whether the prologue was changed in the tv show because rafe put a lot of thought on where to start introducing this massively expansive world, or because rafe is secretly a far right extremist with a convoluted plan of ruining the wheel of time with a woke retelling to cause people to rage against it, or because the executives saw that only men were involved in the first scene, and the only woman was a corpse, and deemed it would have been discriminatory, that's completely irrelevant for the purpose of the argument.

[Sabio]

I just read that Amazon is looking to make a Warhammer 40k series. The speculation is this is part of the reason WOT was canceled as Amazon didn't wish to pay so much for another fantasy middle age type series.  This would have their series spread out with ROP, Fallout, Reacher then Warhammer 40k.  ROP was signed for 5 seasons so they can't nix that, plus as it described ROP gives Amazon much more in the way of possible spin off chances.  Something WOT was limited in unless they wished to do the New Spring book.

Edited June 8 by Sabio

[Bodewhin]

If memory serves Warhammer 40K has been in development with Amazon ever since Henry Cavill left The Witcher (in fact, I believe he started pushing for the project before exiting) - I'm surprised it had any bearing on WOT since it's been a project in negotiation for a long time - but maybe Amazon was looking to cut corners and save some cash?

 

ROP definitely locked 5 seasons from get-go as part of the agreement, it's honestly astounding that Amazon hasn't found a loophole out of it - it must really be a tight legal contract - or like you say, they're holding out being able to produce more LOTR fanfiction in the coming years, and see it as long term profitable. 

[Sabio]

I know I have heard Warhammer rumors before, seems like an expensive project.  It also mentioned Amazon plans to offer ROP for syndication.  

[Guire]

8 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

 

what rafe wanted, what the executives wanted, what was pitched, or the tv beginning working even less, all this has absolutely zero bearing on whether the book prologue would have been a good start, or not.

I argue that the book prologue, as it is, is needlessly confusing to first time readers, to the point that even many who became long standing fans of the books didn't like it.

I argue that, for a tv adaptation, a different scene, or at least a version of the book prologue heavily edited for clarity, would have been better.

 

whether the prologue was changed in the tv show because rafe put a lot of thought on where to start introducing this massively expansive world, or because rafe is secretly a far right extremist with a convoluted plan of ruining the wheel of time with a woke retelling to cause people to rage against it, or because the executives saw that only men were involved in the first scene, and the only woman was a corpse, and deemed it would have been discriminatory, that's completely irrelevant for the purpose of the argument.

With a bit of editing the prologue would have been an excellent start.  It would not have worked if show just jumped into the show as presented.  This adaptation got 3 seasons.  Not sure how to evaluate if that is a success or not.  IMHO several better adaptations were in this story.

[Mailman]

10 hours ago, Sabio said:

I just read that Amazon is looking to make a Warhammer 40k series. The speculation is this is part of the reason WOT was canceled as Amazon didn't wish to pay so much for another fantasy middle age type series.  This would have their series spread out with ROP, Fallout, Reacher then Warhammer 40k.  ROP was signed for 5 seasons so they can't nix that, plus as it described ROP gives Amazon much more in the way of possible spin off chances.  Something WOT was limited in unless they wished to do the New Spring book.

 

9 hours ago, Bodewhin said:

If memory serves Warhammer 40K has been in development with Amazon ever since Henry Cavill left The Witcher (in fact, I believe he started pushing for the project before exiting) - I'm surprised it had any bearing on WOT since it's been a project in negotiation for a long time - but maybe Amazon was looking to cut corners and save some cash?

 

ROP definitely locked 5 seasons from get-go as part of the agreement, it's honestly astounding that Amazon hasn't found a loophole out of it - it must really be a tight legal contract - or like you say, they're holding out being able to produce more LOTR fanfiction in the coming years, and see it as long term profitable. 

RoP numbers did not fall off a cliff like WoTs numbers either.

WoT s1e1-3 1.15B

Wot s2e1-3 515M

WoT s3e1-3 534M

 

RoP s1e1-3 1.25B

RoP s2e1-3 1.015B

 

 

[Jaccsen]

On 6/8/2025 at 9:39 AM, king of nowhere said:

I argue that the book prologue, as it is, is needlessly confusing to first time readers, to the point that even many who became long standing fans of the books didn't like it.

 

Funny, the prologue is what sold me on the series. The Emond's Field start can be slow until you get to the Trolloc raid.

 

The prologue remains one of my favorite scenes in fantasy.

[Jaccsen]

I think there is a fair argument that if WoT show has remained closer to the books and not turned off a huge segment of fans, then it may have endured.

 

I have seen numerous threads now blaming the "book snobs" for the cancellation. It was cancelled due to lack of audience. There is no good argument that people should watch something they dislike just to keep it going.

[WoTwasThat]

4 hours ago, Jaccsen said:

I think there is a fair argument that if WoT show has remained closer to the books and not turned off a huge segment of fans, then it may have endured.

 

I have seen numerous threads now blaming the "book snobs" for the cancellation. It was cancelled due to lack of audience. There is no good argument that people should watch something they dislike just to keep it going.

I also think non-book viewers would have enjoyed it more if they’d stuck closer to the books. It’s not some freak coincidence that books were so massively popular. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

I also think non-book viewers would have enjoyed it more if they’d stuck closer to the books. It’s not some freak coincidence that books were so massively popular. 

It's also not a coincidence that the books are famous for being slow, boring and meandering with fans of fantasy fiction in general. 

 

I love the books but you seem to be grinding out a rather odd narrative rather facing the facts. 

 

And if you are so interested in the books why are you not discussing them on these boards rather than only the show? 

[WoTwasThat]

30 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It's also not a coincidence that the books are famous for being slow, boring and meandering with fans of fantasy fiction in general. 

 

I love the books but you seem to be grinding out a rather odd narrative rather facing the facts. 

 

And if you are so interested in the books why are you not discussing them on these boards rather than only the show? 

Oh the later books - specifically 7-11 - are insanely slow. But that wasn’t true for *much of* the first 6 books. Those could have been easily and much more faithfully adapted into 3-4 amazing show seasons.

 

And I’m posting here because I’m mainly interested in the show’s cancellation, what a terrible job they did adapting the books, and how that adaptation could have been so much better. Is that not permitted?

 

I mean, I’m currently re-reading EOTW and I’m just amazed how good it was, and how easily this could have been much more faithfully adapted into a Season 1. I think most of the “this adaptation was just too hard” crowd would do well to actually dust off EOTW. They might be shocked. 

Edited June 9 by WoTwasThat

[Guire]

35 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It's also not a coincidence that the books are famous for being slow, boring and meandering with fans of fantasy fiction in general. 

 

I love the books but you seem to be grinding out a rather odd narrative rather facing the facts. 

 

And if you are so interested in the books why are you not discussing them on these boards rather than only the show? 

If books are not currently popular (which I agree probably aren’t to modern fantasy audience) then Amazon was stupid to adapt them.   A better question is who subscribes to Amazon Prime and actually watches the shows? I think that audience would have liked a different adaptation.  This adaptat

[Guire]

31 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

Oh the later books - specifically 7-11 - are insanely slow. But that wasn’t true for *much of* the first 6 books. Those could have been easily and much more faithfully adapted into 3-4 amazing show seasons.

 

And I’m posting here because I’m mainly interested in the show’s cancellation, what a terrible job they did adapting the books, and how that adaptation could have been so much better. Is that not permitted?

 

I mean, I’m currently re-reading EOTW and I’m just amazed how good it was, and how easily this could have been much more faithfully adapted into a Season 1. I think most of the “this adaptation was just too hard” crowd would do well to actually dust off EOTW. They might be shocked. 

I just re read first half of EotW.  It would have made great sort of light horror suspense action.

[WoTwasThat]

1 hour ago, Guire said:

I just re read first half of EotW.  It would have made great sort of light horror suspense action.

Agree. Can’t believe they left out the TAR dream sequences with the boys and Ishy in the first season. And then spent like 10 mins in Shadar Logoth. In the second episode. What a mess. 

Edited June 10 by WoTwasThat

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

My closest friend that loves fantasy got to around book 7 and gave up. Many of the fans on the boards here really didn't like the first 3 books. This hasn't got anything to do with "modern" audiences or target audiences. This has to do with the books were always an acquired taste. My love of them doesn't change that. It certainly doesn't change the rather slavish aping of LOTR. It doesn't change that the original readers of tEotW didn't know the book was about the Dragon Reborn, and that affects the pacing a lot for later readers. It doesn't change that the tone is quite different to the rest of the books. 

 

None of this says that any decision of the adaptation was the right one, but it does make a nonsense of the argument was all they had to do was be closer to the books. That simply isn't true. Which isn't to say that an adaption closer to the books narrative could not be done successfully, but it presents its own challenges, and is not the solution to all problems. 

 

And of course @WoTwasThat, you can use the forums as you please (within the rules you have agreed to follow, obviously). However, your use isn't consistent with a fan of the books, nor does your claim that people just need to dust off the books ring particularly true to someone that actually is familiar with the source material. Most of us don't need to dust off the books to recall their content. 

 

The fact remains that opinions on the adaptation remain subjective - there is no right or wrong way to feel about it.