S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[VooDooNut]

  On 4/18/2025 at 11:33 PM, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

What was the deal with the voting scene?  Why did so many of the sitters stand for Suian only after they asked who stood for Elida? 

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Sheeple.

[Mailman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:04 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

There's not really any equivalency here because the WoT adaptation's existence doesn't and cannot cause actual harm or detriment to anyone, either societally or culturally, which is very much not the case when it comes to the other  things you mentioned.

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  On 4/18/2025 at 3:07 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Good question. But I think slightly twisting the situation with the juxtaposition. I'm not that familiar with the programmes you are referring to, but say for example, if you thought Jerry Springer should have been cancelled as it was exploitative, that has nothing to do with another's enjoyment. 

 

Focusing on the Wheel of Time, wanting it to be cancelled because it is not good enough relative the source is a subjective call. To take your own opinion as objective truth because you love the source material, yet ignore the opinion of others who also love the source material seems slightly hypocritical. 

 

Of course in material terms,, wanting/hoping for it to be cancelled and not caring if it is or not makes little difference, but it seems to be something of a destroyer of the sense of community, if fans only respect other fans who share their viewpoints. 

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I agree with all of Sinisters initial examples but for this argument's sake lets remove those shows as they can cause harm and lets replace them with The bold and the beautiful, coronation street, basically all daytime soaps and others along these lines. The list will be subjective some will have liked these shows others will think they are not worth being on TV.

 

The reason I watch the show is because of my decades long love of the IP. I would have absolutely loved if the show to be great but the writing and general production have made that impossible. I want the show to end for 2 reasons firstly so that I no longer have to continue watching it, that may be a bit selfish but it is what it is, the 2nd is that I simply believe the true quality of the show is not good enough.

 

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:42 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

The fox-like being that Mat met identified itself as Eelfinn, and Elaida's bracelet was identified as having come from the Eelfinn specifically, but she and Mat went through two different doorways.

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There could be more than just 2 doors as well there could be any number of doors to either world. I assumed that Elaidia went to the foxes as she was very obviously fingering the key on the bracelet when she came out.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 11:33 PM, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

What was the deal with the voting scene?  Why did so many of the sitters stand for Suian only after they asked who stood for Elida? 

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I think they were waiting to see what Alviarin did. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 11:33 PM, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

What was the deal with the voting scene?  Why did so many of the sitters stand for Suian only after they asked who stood for Elida? 

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It could be a slap in the face for Elaidia.

It could be that some only moved once they saw that the numbers were stacking up for Siuan.

The whites all moved after Alviarin the leader basically used her control to get them up.

 

It was not a straight up head to head in the books. Proposers when they thought they had the numbers brought the candidate to be voted on and not standing in the first or second round did so to show they would not be easily controlled, I believe the show wanted to probably showcase this without the explanation and to tie it back to the books.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/17/2025 at 3:07 PM, Mirefox said:

Wow, Egwene sure learned how to master TAR and beat a Forsaken pretty quickly, huh?

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Maybe not, have you ever heard Brandon Sanderson speak on the true fate of Lanfear? 

[Turin Turambar]

  On 4/18/2025 at 11:33 PM, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

What was the deal with the voting scene?  Why did so many of the sitters stand for Suian only after they asked who stood for Elaidia? 

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Well one possible explanation could be...

  Reveal hidden contents

In the books, at the time of the coup, Alviarin is head of the Black Ajah. If she was 10 years prior then it's possible some or all of the late standing sitters were also Black.

 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 9:40 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I see your point. 

But then again, they give Mat intangible things that assist him (i.e. memories) in obtaining his goal. So the gift could be something less tangible that nonetheless allowed her to obtain the Amyrlin Seat?

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In the show, the memories were already inside his head.

In the books, the memories were the ones they already stole from others who had been within their realm, throughout the multiverse.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 11:06 PM, Mailman said:

I'm sorry that is extremely circumstantial at the best.

 

The DO power increased across the entire series because the seals weakened. The wound was hot to the touch because that is what happens with an infection that is not under control linking it to the weather conditions without proof is drawing an extremely long bow.

 

The weather conditions do not change after Fain alters the nature of the wound or after Damer locks the wounds inside with each other and away from Rand.

 

Rand becoming zen does not change the wound it does not heal it the wound remains. The weather overall to the best of my knowledge does not change after Rand becomes Zen he affects a small area around himself (which contains the wound) which pushes back the decaying power of the DO.

 

Unless you can provide some direct proof this feels very much like an unproven theory with very little support.

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https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=fisher+king

&

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=land+and+the+Dragon+are+one

 

  Quote

 

Question

Is there a connection between the spoilage of food and Rand's temperament?

Brandon Sanderson

Look at the Fisher King prophecies, and the prophecies in WoT that mention that the "land and the Dragon are one."

 

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  Quote

 

Question

Someone else asked if Rand's internal state of affairs was affecting the world around him.

Brandon Sanderson

Brandon said there are two things going on—ta'veren and the Fisher King prophecy which says the Dragon is tied directly to the land. He says it seems to Rand that more bad stuff was happening in The Gathering Storm but that this could be either just Rand's perception or what is really going on. We should remember that ta'veren is supposed to be 50/50—an extra equal amount of good and bad going on. He would not tell us at this point whether there was really more bad stuff happening in The Gathering Storm or whether its Rand's perception as there was purposefully very few viewpoints from Rand himself in Towers of Midnight. Like the third book The Dragon Reborn, Towers of Midnight is meant to step away from Rand and view him from the viewpoints of others.

Someone also asked if Rand's ta'veren nature would affect people on the other side of an open gateway. Brandon said that the Pattern considers that Rand is where he is and not on the other side of the gateway, so he would not affect a place just by having a gateway open there and not actually being there.

 

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  Quote

 

Azral Hanan (2 August 2010)

Why is the Dragon 'one with the Land'? Is it just due to him being ta'veren or is there more to it?

Brandon Sanderson (2 August 2010)

More to it. More about being the Dragon than being ta'veren. Who he is.

AZRAL HANAN

So it's more than a title or being ta'veren and Hero of the Horn? The Dragon plays its own unique role in the Pattern?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Note that Prophecy says that the Dragon specifically is reborn time after time.

Azral Hanan

RJ said the soul is immortal. But Hopper says dying in the Wolf Dream is likely permanent. Is Hopper wrong?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, for now. Ask again after the last book is out.

 

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  Quote

 

Question

How about the food going bad in Bandar Eban? Was that caused by Rand being nearby with his cloud of evil?

Brandon Sanderson

We've heard earlier in the books that the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. This is an old belief—many kingdoms believed that the wellness of the king was directly tied to the wellness of the land. In WoT, this is quite literally true.

 

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  Quote

 

jharoldson

I...asked Brandon a question regarding Graendal possibly not being dead. I started by saying that Graendal was ordered to keep Arad Doman in chaos. After she was killed Rand was forced out of Arad Doman because all of the food he brought spoiled all at the same time, not in random intervals like had happened before due to the Dark One's touch. My question to Brandon is was this food spoilage caused by the Dark One or could it have been a strong channeler with inverted weaves, perhaps someone who was ordered to make sure that Rand's plans in Arad Doman failed?

Brandon Sanderson

Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand. Robert Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the story. When people complained that only bad ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an example that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark. The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.

 

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The Dragon is one with the Land, and the Land is one with the Dragon.

 

[Mailman]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:38 AM, SinisterDeath said:

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=fisher+king

&

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=land+and+the+Dragon+are+one

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Dragon is one with the Land, and the Land is one with the Dragon.

 

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I am not arguing the Dragon and the land are one line. Initially with the Ta'avern chance swirling around Rand it was 50/50 then as Rand became harder and more closed off from everyone I believe that began to swing towards the effect becoming negative. After he became Zen it was 2 sides of the coin Rand only produced positive while the DO only produced negative.

 

It is the assertion that his wound facilitated some control over the weather that I am disputing.

[Sabio]

  On 4/18/2025 at 8:08 PM, DreadLord31 said:

So characters they (we think) killed this season are: 

1) Loial

2) Siuan [this Rafe specially said, “shows the stakes”. Really? Just wait till I get to the fake-out death tally to show how it doesn’t!] 

3) Melindra

4) Almost all the BA sisters who left the tower (except Liandrin & Chesmal?) 

5) Ihvon 

6) Valda

7) Sammael 

 

Am I forgetting someone?

 

Fake-Out Deaths this season:

1) Alanna x3

2) Egwene x2 

3) Nynaeve x2 

4) Moiraine 

5) Elaida 

6) Perrin 

7) Dain 

8.) Bain & Chiad 

9) Liandrin 

10) Sammael 

11) Maksim 

12) Lanfear

13) Thom? 

 

*Im counting it as a “fake-out” death if someone is impaled, stabbed, hung, crushed, or drown in a way that would have killed them in the books or real life but in the show is somehow insta-healed! 😉 

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From the way Rafe makes it seem we can expect a few mid character deaths like Loial, Valda, and Siuan.  People who simply weren't major players in the series.  With the limited time and so many arcs to put in they want to instead give them proper sendoffs.  He pretty much said the actress playing Siuan was too good to simply kill without giving her a strong moment.

Edited April 19 by Sabio

[DreadLord31]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:49 AM, Sabio said:

People who simply weren't major players in the series.  With the limited time and so many arcs to put in they want to instead give them proper sendoffs.

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It’s arguable that, book wise, Siuan has a larger part than Moiraine or Lanfear - but she definitely has more of a part than Maksim… so (even though I know you’re repeating verbatim what Rafe really did say) I don’t buy it. 
 

Theyre keeping characters they shouldn’t (Alanna/Maksim/Lanfear/Moiraine/Moggy & axing characters they really ought to keep (Loial/Siuan/Sammael). 

[jh557]

  On 4/18/2025 at 11:39 PM, Mailman said:

 

The reason I watch the show is because of my decades long love of the IP. I would have absolutely loved if the show to be great but the writing and general production have made that impossible. I want the show to end for 2 reasons firstly so that I no longer have to continue watching it, that may be a bit selfish but it is what it is, the 2nd is that I simply believe the true quality of the show is not good enough.

 

 

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I have to agree. I'm glad that some people can find that they are happy with the show. I get to a content to sometimes a slight happy feeling good phase and then pops up an episode that I cannot get out of my head for how much I hated it. Like I really enjoyed Rand's visions from his ancestors and thought that Josha was great in that episode. I actually think most of the actors are really pretty darn good overall. I just think that the writing is just lacking. And in certain episodes it is so bad that it takes away so much not just from the IP but severely drops the quality of the show alone.  

 

Like you and probably a lot of the people that are still hanging around here I have loved the IP since I first picked the books up. Literally half my lifetime ago while I was still a teenager. Painfully waiting for the next book to come out. Although I was probably luckier than some of you all as I finished my first read through a few months before The Gathering Storm came out, so I didn't have to spend all that much time waiting.  RJ had also passed shortly before I started reading the series, so I didn't live through the age of him and his tricky answers and RAFOs. But I read through so many of those interviews on the internet and was on Theoryland seeing and following along with people's personal predictions and the factions and arguments that everybody was making for why they had to be right. I loved and still love the story that RJ told. And the discussions it has spawned. And because of that I will not be able to stop watching this show until it is canceled or ends how it ends.    

 

  On 4/18/2025 at 7:53 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Let me add this to the list of plot holes they better clean up if they get another season! lol

 

They massively telegraphed and established this season that Mo has to die fighting Lanfear or Rand loses the Last Battle only to NOT kill Mo or Lanfear in the season finale. Sigh. 
 

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Another plot hole tied into this hole. Unless I missed something in Mo's visions of her futures that we saw it seems like her deaths are tied to choking, stabbing, or throat cutting. I don't recall a scene in the visions where they are grappling and flying through the air or some kind of boom or explosion from the melting of the doorway as they slam together hard on the floor/ground both appearing dead before going black or cutting to a different possible future. Them not showing it as a possibility is I think another bad writing miss. Like they could have also had a scene of Mo tackling Lanfear off the top of the tower and falling toward the ground and a cut to other tackling scenes and flying through the air into dragonmount lava and/or onto a spear to not just give it away as THE future. Just something to establish that her death did not have to be slicing and dicing and might involve a fall of some sort. I get trying not to lay it on too thick, but they could have avoided outright showing them perfectly falling through the doorway or only shown a shadowy Finn's fancy skin boot in the periphery in the vision as they lay bleeding or unconscious on the ToG floor. I mean they did quite literally grapple and fly through the air in the actual battle scene, so its not like it would just give it away. I don't understand why they wouldn't show even a hint of it and other similar variants of the possible future that the book readers are expecting while at the same time setting up the Finns-Mat-possibly Min-ToG this season and then not even showing that Mo might be tied to it as well except because they moved the doorway from the Waste and were left with just stabby stab gore. And Mo and Rand bonding. Mo and Lanfear hooking up. Oh and Mo and Rand hooking up. Just wasteful seconds flashing by that drive the story absolutely nowhere and show an immaturity of Rafe or the writers needing to beat off more before coming into work. 

 

I get them not showing a falling or airborne death scene does not mean it won't happen. But it is bad foreshadowing to not show it for setting it up in the future the book readers are expecting especially now that the Finns have been introduced and they both didn't die. And show watchers now expecting a sword killing showdown. She saw a thousand thousand futures surely one was the scene you are imagining and might get in the future! Maybe but the only ones the show writers thought were important were the slicing and stabbing ones though. Because bad writing left them with only the scene that they gave us.

 

They wrote themselves into a corner because they chose to have a Mo/Lanfear showdown this season and not next season. It was not necessary to have it this season. The wrote it that way. They chose to move the doorway locations because they chose to change Mat's storyline from the Waste and chose to show Elaida coming from a doorway that did not need to be located in the Tower for some new plot that they have made up. And because they chose not let bad horny Rand have a moment (other than making that dry desert wet! and even then Eg has to tell him to let go of the power and finish) He could have had to actually fight Samuel in a real battle after Sam ambushes him worn out from the columns. Show off his strength in Rhuidean similarly to the source material and accidently destroy the mist barrier so the doorframe and/or other Ter'angreal if there were any were revealed. Mo could have even came awake just in time to save the day and get him shielded with the sa'angreal. Rand actually could have had his big drawn out flashy battle and Mo also gets to stay the most important. It could have happened in episode 5 so we could explore the teaching aspect more. Maybe have a couple of disgruntled lessons before Mogy just killing Samuel. Maybe he could have found out how to test others to find out if they could channel so he can get started on the Black Tower plot the second he secures a city across the dragonwall. We could have had that battle and not whatever that was in episode 6. And he could kill a different little girl in Tear and try and heal her with near unlimited power of Callendor as written instead. The big battle at the end of the season could have been unblocked Nyn blasting Lin killing her or just blasting her unconscious. I hear that characters that don't have much plot left in the books are good to go and can just be covered by somebody else, so Lin should certainly make that list as she is just a shielded loser coming up. That blast of power could attract Mogy. Nyn recognizing and going toe to toe with her and learning to truly believe and trust in her strength. Nope part the waters and get on the boat Nyn. The Nyn very famous for just shrugging, giving up, and just walking away when her friends are in danger. Best of luck to you Rand. Avoid being collared! 

 

But Pike must star. And all of these choices left them without an "out" for Mo  that was not permanent death or a victory and ultimately resulted in neither obviously dying and further in them needing another flashy death for the season and thus Suian (screaming defiance till her last breath to spit in Sightblinder's eye glorious moment as it was-I still hated it because I love her resilient growth arc with Eg) which has set the WoT people at each others throats all over the internet. Even show only people are raging over her death and the deliberately gory way it was done. One of those butterfly flaps its wings.... and a volcano erupts on the other side of the world moment it seems. 

 

The source material for Mo and Lanfear showdown was important for setting up the ToG, getting Lan to Nyn, for Rand's growth, and for the last battle. We did not have the doorframe, so I figured the Mo was not going to die. I did think that Lanfear was actually going to die setting up rebirth for her and Ishy at the beginning of next season. Then a further confrontation of revenge next season with a doorframe somehow. Didn't get that. That's fine I'm not being paid by the show. But the show does set it up as a huge moment. Either Mo wins or the last battle is lost here in season 3. Was it flashy? At times, yes. Did either die? Doesn't appear so. All I saw were easy to heal wounds in this age. Is Lan cool yet? Sure as hell no. Do swords have some extra special ability against the one power? The way the warders be dancing around an hanging in there they must. Does Mo still have to kill Lanfear for Rand to ultimately win? Who knows? If its not convenient to bring it up again then we will be expected to just forget about it and welcome her as Cadsuane. Oh wait her death and eventual return is pivotal to the entire storyline of winning the last battle? I guess we have to find out how many doorframes there are. One for every capital city maybe. If not when will Mo be headed back to her confrontation with Lanfear at Elaida's tower? Or will it be in Seachan controlled Tanchico? Or just a good old nonhealing sword wound and Brigette rebirth because why not. Are the Finn just a fun element to give to book readers to say damn here you go or is there still a future plot of ToG? Is Mo too important to be removed and go through the doorframe? Sure seems like it. Maybe Matt can go to the Finn and rescue Oliver or his sisters. 

 

I haven't posted so far this season because I was just letting things play out. And I thought there was some truly great scenes this season and was hoping that things were fully on the upswing. Also in seasons past I ended up typing up a rant like this and didn't really want to be doing that. I truly don't want to bring others down on their good feelings. But these writers just do not seem capable of telling the story of the EF5. Hell they do not seem to even begin to understand them. Except for goofy Mat. The more serious aspect of the rest of them are as lost as Perrin displaying even a hint of having any cool abilities.   

Edited April 19 by jh557

[VooDooNut]

  On 4/19/2025 at 3:11 AM, jh557 said:

 

I have to agree. I'm glad that some people can find that they are happy with the show. I get to a content to sometimes a slight happy feeling good phase and then pops up an episode that I cannot get out of my head for how much I hated it. Like I really enjoyed Rand's visions from his ancestors and thought that Josha was great in that episode. I actually think most of the actors are really pretty darn good overall. I just think that the writing is just lacking. And in certain episodes it is so bad that it takes away so much not just from the IP but severely drops the quality of the show alone.  

 

Like you and probably a lot of the people that are still hanging around here I have loved the IP since I first picked the books up. Literally half my lifetime ago while I was still a teenager. Painfully waiting for the next book to come out. Although I was probably luckier than some of you all as I finished my first read through a few months before The Gathering Storm came out, so I didn't have to spend all that much time waiting.  RJ had also passed shortly before I started reading the series, so I didn't live through the age of him and his tricky answers and ROFs. But I read through so many of those interviews on the internet and was on Theoryland seeing and following along with people's personal predictions and the factions and arguments that everybody was making for why they had to be right. I loved and still love the story that RJ told. And the discussions it has spawned. And because of that I will not be able to stop watching this show until it is canceled or ends how it ends.    

 

 

Another plot hole tied into this hole. Unless I missed something in Mo's visions of her futures that we saw it seems like her deaths are tied to choking, stabbing, or throat cutting. I don't recall a scene in the visions where they are grappling and flying through the air or some kind of boom or explosion from the melting of the doorway as they slam together hard on the floor/ground both appearing dead before going black or cutting to a different possible future. Them not showing it as a possibility is I think another bad writing miss. Like they could have also had a scene of Mo tackling Lanfear off the top of the tower and falling toward the ground and a cut to other tackling scenes and flying through the air into dragonmount lava and/or onto a spear to not just give it away as THE future. Just something to establish that her death did not have to be slicing and dicing and might involve a fall of some sort. I get trying not to lay it on too think, but they could have avoided outright showing them perfectly falling through the doorway or only shown a shadowy Finn's fancy skin boot in the periphery in the vision as they lay bleeding or unconscious on the ToG floor. I mean they did quite literally grapple and fly through the air in the actual battle scene, so its not like it would just give it away. I don't understand why they wouldn't show even a hint of it and other similar variants of the possible future that the book readers are expecting while at the same time setting up the Finns-Mat-possibly Min-ToG this season and then not even showing that Mo might be tied to it as well except because they moved the doorway from the Waste and were left with just stabby stab gore. And Mo and Rand bonding. Mo and Lanfear hooking up. Oh and Mo and Rand hooking up. Just wasteful seconds flashing by that drive the story absolutely nowhere and show an immaturity of Rafe or the writers needing to beat off more before coming into work. 

 

I get them not showing a falling or airborne death scene does not mean it won't happen. But it is bad foreshadowing to not show it for setting it up in the future the book readers are expecting especially now that the Finns have been introduced and they both didn't die. And show watchers now expecting a sword killing showdown. She saw a thousand thousand futures surely one was the scene you are imagining and might get in the future! Maybe but the only ones the show writers thought were important were the slicing and stabbing ones though. Because bad writing left them with only the scene that they gave us.

 

They wrote themselves into a corner because they chose to have a Mo/Lanfear showdown this season and not next season. It was not necessary to have it this season. The wrote it that way. They chose to move the doorway locations because they chose to change Mat's storyline from the Waste and chose to show Elaida coming from a doorway that did not need to be located in the Tower for some new plot that they have made up. And because they chose not let bad horny Rand have a moment (other than making that dry desert wet! and even then Eg has to tell him to let go of the power and finish) He could have had to actually fight Samuel in a real battle after Sam ambushes him worn out from the columns. Show off his strength in Rhuidean similarly to the source material and accidently destroy the mist barrier so the doorframe and/or other Ter'angreal if there were any were revealed. Mo could have even came awake just in time to save the day and get him shielded with the sa'angreal. Rand actually could have had his big drawn out flashy battle and Mo also gets to stay the most important. It could have happened in episode 5 so we could explore the teaching aspect more. Maybe have a couple of disgruntled lessons before Mogy just killing Samuel. Maybe he could have found out how to test others to find out if they could channel so he can get started on the Black Tower plot the second he secures a city across the dragonwall. We could have had that battle and not whatever that was in episode 6. And he could kill a different little girl in Tear and try and heal her with near unlimited power of Callendor as written instead. The big battle at the end of the season could have been unblocked Nyn blasting Lin killing her or just blasting her unconscious. I hear that characters that don't have much plot left in the books are good to go and can just be covered by somebody else, so Lin should certainly make that list as she is just a shielded loser coming up. That blast of power could attract Mogy. Nyn recognizing and going toe to toe with her and learning to truly believe and trust in her strength. Nope part the waters and get on the boat Nyn. The Nyn very famous for just shrugging, giving up, and just walking away when her friends are in danger. Best of luck to you Rand. Avoid being collared! 

 

But Pike must star. And all of these choices left them without an "out" for Mo  that was not permanent death or a victory and ultimately resulted in neither obviously dying and further in them needing another flashy death for the season and thus Suian (screaming defiance till her last breath to spit in Sightblinder's eye glorious moment as it was-I still hated it because I love her resilient growth arc with Eg) which has set the WoT people at each others throats all over the internet. Even show only people are raging over her death and the deliberately gory way it was done. One of those butterfly flaps its wings.... and a volcano erupts on the other side of the world moment it seems. 

 

The source material for Mo and Lanfear showdown was important for setting up the ToG, getting Lan to Nyn, for Rand's growth, and for the last battle. We did not have the doorframe, so I figured the Mo was not going to die. I did think that Lanfear was actually going to die setting up rebirth for her and Ishy at the beginning of next season. Then a further confrontation of revenge next season with a doorframe somehow. Didn't get that. That's fine I'm not being paid by the show. But the show does set it up as a huge moment. Either Mo wins or the last battle is lost here in season 3. Was it flashy? At times, yes. Did either die? Doesn't appear so. All I saw were easy to heal wounds in this age. Is Lan cool yet? Sure as hell no. Do swords have some extra special ability against the one power? The way the warders be dancing around an hanging in there they must. Does Mo still have to kill Lanfear for Rand to ultimately win? Who knows? If its not convenient to bring it up again then we will be expected to just forget about it and welcome her as Cadsuane. Oh wait her death and eventual return is pivotal to the entire storyline of winning the last battle? I guess we have to find out how many doorframes there are. One for every capital city maybe. If not when will Mo be headed back to her confrontation with Lanfear at Elaida's tower? Or will it be in Seachan controlled Tanchico? Or just a good old nonhealing sword wound and Brigette rebirth because why not. Are the Finn just a fun element to give to book readers to say damn here you go or is there still a future plot of ToG? Is Mo too important to be removed and go through the doorframe? Sure seems like it. Maybe Matt can go to the Finn and rescue Oliver or his sisters. 

 

I haven't posted so far this season because I was just letting things play out. And I thought there was some truly great scenes this season and was hoping that things were fully on the upswing. Also in seasons past I ended up typing up a rant like this and didn't really want to be doing that. I truly don't want to bring others down on their good feelings. But these writers just do not seem capable of telling the story of the EF5. Hell they do not seem to even begin to understand them. Except for goofy Mat. The more serious aspect of the rest of them are as lost as Perrin displaying even a hint of having any cool abilities.   

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Well articulated. Just speaking to the emotion I'm feeling from your words, I'm also sad it's not the show I was hoping it would be. There are still moments that I get to enjoy though. I've definitely transitioned to not expecting as much from it, and that has helped me. And ultimately, the books are perfection, even in their imperfect form.

[Sabio]

  On 4/19/2025 at 3:10 AM, DreadLord31 said:

It’s arguable that, book wise, Siuan has a larger part than Moiraine or Lanfear - but she definitely has more of a part than Maksim… so (even though I know you’re repeating verbatim what Rafe really did say) I don’t buy it. 
 

Theyre keeping characters they shouldn’t (Alanna/Maksim/Lanfear/Moiraine/Moggy & axing characters they really ought to keep (Loial/Siuan/Sammael). 

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You could remove Loial and Siuan and would the book miss a beat?  After being deposed Siuan had some book time but did she really do anything important? To me Samm is another that really didn't do enough, that if it was taken out would've weakened the book.  Loial honestly could be removed entirely from the book.   I assume Allana is staying becuase of the bonding of Rand and they need someone to get stabbed in every episode.

Edited April 19 by Sabio

[VooDooNut]

  On 4/19/2025 at 3:20 AM, Sabio said:

You could remove Loial and Siuan and would the book miss a beat?  After being deposed Siuan had some book time but did she really do anything important? To me Samm is another that really didn't do enough, that if it was taken out would've weakened the book.  Loial honestly could be removed entirely from the book.   I assume Allana is staying becuase of the bonding of Rand and they need someone to get stabbed in every episode.

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Just removing Loial though, you are losing the entire world-building aspect of the Ogier. It may not make the most sense in the greater theme of the books, but it's definitely unique and interesting.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/19/2025 at 3:20 AM, Sabio said:

You could remove Loial and Siuan and would the book miss a beat?  After being deposed Siuan had some book time but did she really do anything important? To me Samm is another that really didn't do enough, that if it was taken out would've weakened the book.  Loial honestly could be removed entirely from the book.   I assume Allana is staying becuase of the bonding of Rand and they need someone to get stabbed in every episode.

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Siuan’s main purpose after being deposed was to serve as someone for Nyn to heal and thereby demonstate the effect of woman healing woman and to serve as an experienced political ally to The Wonder Girls in Salidar so as not to give them Mary Sue level political savvy (though I’m sure fanboy Rafe will have no problem giving that to Egwene). 
 

Loial was a stand in for RJ himself and while he made his contributions to the plot, he largely served as the eyes through which a larger story was witnessed. 
 

Sammael’s ultimate purpose was to get Rand back to Shadar Logoth so he could make his big connection with Moridin. Once this was accomplished RJ just unceremoniously fed him to Mashadar. I always thought this was an underwhelming death for him but perhaps RJ just wanted to demonstrate how powerful and deadly mashadar really was. 
 

That being said RJ did have a bit of a problem with giving characters their big moments and then not knowing quite what to do with them after. Once he abandoned Taimendred I’m not sure he ever quite figured out what to do with Demendred as I’m fairly creation that Boa the Wild was all Sanderson.  

Edited April 19 by The_Watcher_And_Wanderer

[EmreY]

As someone who believes the books would have benefited tremendously from a dispassionate and critical editor I have to say that in my opinion a lot of the changes, including the deaths of Loial (sorry as I was to see him go) and Siuan (whose post-stilling story belongs in a self-help book and whose death in the books was limp), are neither here nor there.

 

As far I'm concerned, the books and the show suffer from the same problem: flashes of brilliance.  The general feeling on this forum might be that Jordan was Tolstoy re-incarnated, but as far as I can remember War and Peace did not veer off into discussion of politics in Brazil, Russian troop movements on the Chinese border or the quirks of early nineteenth century Sami life, but tidily and impressively managed to cover quite a number of relevant issues within a titanic conflict using a mere 600 characters rather than 3,000.  More is not always better, and Jordan's writing skills were not up to the task.

 

Unlike Jordan, the producers, directors and writers of the TV series do not have an indulgent boss/editor, who will allow them to stretch things out beyond their capability to handle and I think that is mostly a good thing.  Mostly.  The series would benefit from more time (amongst other things).

 

What therefore bugs me is not whether things are accurate representations of book canon - whatever that might be - but the simple things.  As Mirefox pointed out towards the start of this discussion:

 

  On 4/17/2025 at 4:11 PM, Mirefox said:

Moiraine to Lan: “Today is possibly the day I die.”

 

Lan:  Disappears to meditate so far away from anyone that nobody notices a possible assassination attempt and then some death-via-broken oath all while his Aes Sedai is alone in a tent with the man who she says might kill her.

 

Also Lan: Go ahead and channel, Moiraine, while I guard you from half a mile away so I can get to you just in time after I see a Forsaken appear in this featureless desert and slowly strangle you while I do my best to finally get in a position to protect you.

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Not to mention that Lan permits Lanfear to stitch herself together with black goo, a favour Lanfear returns later by watching Moiraine slowly pull a sword out of her abdomen without interference.

 

It's things like these - things that could be avoided - which annoy me tremendously, not whether the Snakes and Foxes have been correctly represented or whether such-and-such a thing should have occurred at some point or whether there was enough exposition of some ability or lore point.

 

...

 

On reflection, an area where I like what the series is doing is where it's trying not to focus on Rand.  I must admit, I did not like it at the start, but I do now.

 

The problem with the Dragon Reborn's character in the books is that he is so powerful, so critical that it would be all too easy to build everything around him.  Jordan gets around the problem by adding bookfuls of padding which progress the story very little.  The TV series gets around the problem by understating things when Rand does something really important, or by (in this instance) undercutting his Big Scene with another that is much more emotional.  It's only later, when the storm he raises reaches hemispheric proportions do you understand the gravity, but even then, it's partially in the background.  You can (dis)miss it as easily as Elaida does, but I would venture to suggest neither she nor the viewer should do so.

 

(Apologies for the length and all the edits.)

Edited April 19 by EmreY

[jh557]

  On 4/19/2025 at 3:20 AM, VooDooNut said:

Well articulated. Just speaking to the emotion I'm feeling from your words, I'm also sad it's not the show I was hoping it would be. There are still moments that I get to enjoy though. I've definitely transitioned to not expecting as much from it, and that has helped me. And ultimately, the books are perfection, even in their imperfect form.

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Thank you. I try not to take it too serious because there are so many other things in the world to be worried over that are not fiction. And there truly are such great moments. And some of these actors seem like they could be absolute super stars with better writing. And then such awful confusing for lack of the better nonsense comes along. I can watch 20 minutes of an episode and be like what is this for! Every minute is precious and I just don't get the feel that it is always taken that way. That is what really gets me down. If it was just bad all the time it would be fine. Not really fine but like it would keep me at the same level. But the back and forth whiplash just gnaws at me. 

 

I feel like I am at a particular disadvantage as well. Like Perrin is my favorite character first read through and like 7 or 8 rereads later. I have found that to be a minority group over the years. I hate that his wolfbrother powers are basically yellow eyes. I get a lot of it is hard to translate to TV because its smells and hearing inside his head and communications with wolves. But he doesn't even really communicate with wolves. Like we see the wolf heads in the whitecloak camp and book readers know Luc/Slayer, but he should be taking about the lack of wolves as a plot set up for Slayer. And he should of interacted with Eg shortly in TAR in that dream to at least set the foreshadowing that he is also a dreamer.   

 

But others like Nyn with no fire. I would go so far as to call her timid most of the time in the show. And just not as strong and sure as she is in the books. Looking to heal/help Lin cause of her own relationship with her dead parents and Lin's son. Just no.  

 

Eg lying to the Wise Ones and just moving on. That was an important growth moment for her. Getting to running laps. Making Dreaming the easiest thing in the world for her to learn when it has such a complex ruled structure and important part of her and other's story about learning control. Her getting the ring and telling Siuan that she is leaving. They needed to get her to the Waste, but they separated her so much from the Tower that she is supposed to come back and run. Setting her up as a scorned lover when that is not at all what the confrontational relationship between her and Rand is based upon.

 

And Siuan. From the low dirt hut fisherwoman to the highest peak one can reach to a new level of low. A different group could have got her out of the Tower and started the Salidar journey. Where we get to see her true strength that she does not need The Seat to move the world. The teaching moments of the Great Game played at the highest level. The secrets of the Tower law and history. Can Verin and Leane do this. Sure. I don't really expect a whole lot of politicking to go on in the show just cause they haven't so far and it is time consuming. So I can live with her dying, but she was so much more complex than Mo's love story which is only canon to some people to begin with.         

 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills and will continue turning regardless of my thoughts. 

Edited April 19 by jh557

[notpropaganda73]

 

  On 4/19/2025 at 3:10 AM, DreadLord31 said:

It’s arguable that, book wise, Siuan has a larger part than Moiraine or Lanfear - but she definitely has more of a part than Maksim… so (even though I know you’re repeating verbatim what Rafe really did say) I don’t buy it. 
 

Theyre keeping characters they shouldn’t (Alanna/Maksim/Lanfear/Moiraine/Moggy & axing characters they really ought to keep (Loial/Siuan/Sammael). 

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I don't really see how Sammael should be kept. He was such a damp squib in the books for me and like I mentioned, I didn't really like this actor for him in the show, so I'm quite happy he's gone. Would I have preferred a cool fight with Rand, sure - but the way Rand took him out actually sort of hit home how powerful Rand is and how weak Sammael is in comparison (imo). A bit of a joke figure, even among the Forsaken. I'm hopeful that Rahvin will be much more of a serious threat for Rand. 

 

Moggy in the show is brilliant and I'm glad she seems to be more of a threat to the other Forsaken here - I'd have loved another mini-stand off with Nynaeve in the finale, but I expect it will be coming next season (if we get there).

 

I generally agree with @jh557, I think I have also said it before but the show feels like it's great in some moments, solid and good in others, outright bad for other moments - and that inconsistency just frustrates me and I'm just left feeling that it isn't quite as good as it could or should be. That breakdown of the Mo and Lanfear stand-off gets to the crux of why I felt so meh about it all as well.

 

I do think the writers' have shown an understanding of a lot of the key themes of WoT, they have done a lot of good foreshadowing for big moments further down the line imo - however unfortunately for me they have made a litany of missteps and poorly thought out decisions that have left the show feeling more hollow than it really should. 

 

I think Nynaeve sums it up as well. I love Zoe Robins representation of her, I thought she was easily the best part of S1, her episode in the Arches in S2 one of my favourites as well, but essentially since she got to Falme she has been poorly handled outside of small character moments and resisting Moggy's compulsion. What made Nynaeve awesome to me was even with her block she was capable, and they even showed that in S1 with her tracking Lan and Moiraine etc. But it seems like in the show as soon as she realised she has a block, she can't do anything. It's disappointing.

 

However what I do keep telling myself is that the show certainly seems to be working for show-only people. My girlfriend is invested in it, she doesn't think it's amazing but there are bits of the show where I'm quite surprised at how well it lands for her. 

[DaddyFinn]

Near perfect finale for a near perfect season. I wish Moiraine and/or Lanfear had died instead of Siuan. Not sure what they are going for there.

[notpropaganda73]

Just before Rand and Moiraine's scene, before Alcair Dal, Rand is staring off into the distance and a figure appears. Lews Therin?

[EmreY]

  On 4/19/2025 at 11:39 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

Just before Rand and Moiraine's scene, before Alcair Dal, Rand is staring off into the distance and a figure appears. Lews Therin?

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I sort of missed that when watching, just thought it was some random Aiel walking around.

 

However, some Youtube commentators have suggested the same thing as you, and I think it makes more sense.

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/18/2025 at 11:45 PM, Mailman said:

It could be a slap in the face for Elaidia.

It could be that some only moved once they saw that the numbers were stacking up for Siuan.

The whites all moved after Alviarin the leader basically used her control to get them up.

 

It was not a straight up head to head in the books. Proposers when they thought they had the numbers brought the candidate to be voted on and not standing in the first or second round did so to show they would not be easily controlled, I believe the show wanted to probably showcase this without the explanation and to tie it back to the books.

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Given what we know about Alvarin from the books it is possible that there were other forces at play. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/19/2025 at 3:10 AM, DreadLord31 said:

It’s arguable that, book wise, Siuan has a larger part than Moiraine or Lanfear - but she definitely has more of a part than Maksim… so (even though I know you’re repeating verbatim what Rafe really did say) I don’t buy it. 
 

Theyre keeping characters they shouldn’t (Alanna/Maksim/Lanfear/Moiraine/Moggy & axing characters they really ought to keep (Loial/Siuan/Sammael). 

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Alanna has the key moment at the end of the book series. Bonding Rand and then her death being the threat to force Rand to end the world. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/19/2025 at 3:20 AM, Sabio said:

You could remove Loial and Siuan and would the book miss a beat?  After being deposed Siuan had some book time but did she really do anything important? To me Samm is another that really didn't do enough, that if it was taken out would've weakened the book.  Loial honestly could be removed entirely from the book.   I assume Allana is staying becuase of the bonding of Rand and they need someone to get stabbed in every episode.

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What, sorry statements like this make me wonder if people really understand the character arcs in the books. Siuan is the driving force behind Egwene’s ascension in the tower. No Siuan no making Egwene AS. No Siuan and the rebel Aes Sedai fold, no Siuan and all of that story thread. One of the key fav threads of most readers is gone.