S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:19 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I think at the end of the day, the rancor comes down to two diametrically opposed things:

 

(1) People who feel really let down that their vision of what this show could be was not realized and feel the overwhelming need to vocalize that 

 

-versus-

 

(2) People who really love seeing this thing they love on the screen and finding it very frustrating that people keep wanting to poop on it. 
 

Neither is wrong. Both deserve validation. Which is why it is best to ground our posts in specifics rather than broad generalizations. But even then, there’s just no way we are all going to agree. Which is okay. 

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I’ve tried to never attack anyone’s feeling about the show.  I’ve never said anyone can’t like it, or shouldn’t.  I would love to have straight objective discussions but from my background I could probably write a treatise on literary and rational missteps this show has taken from the opening scenes and when I bring them up I am summarily dismissed by a handful who don’t differentiate between opinion and concern about rational, logical story structuring.  Wanting the show to demonstrate a level of craftsmanship that I would hope for with such a compelling source should be a desire absolutely everyone here has but some are as unwilling  to check their positive feelings at the door as those who have a vehement dislike.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:24 PM, Elder_Haman said:

This is super subjective. To me, it was very uncanny valley, which made it sort of terrifying. But I can see where it would come off as cheesy. It’s not the easiest thing to get perfect in a live action format. 

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Objectively, I believe they blew the CGI budget on a variety of One Power effects this season.

They didn't spend nearly enough $$$ on the Trollocs in Episode 7. (The underworld werewolf Trolloc Chasing Aram looked really cheesy and under-developed).

 

They definitely leaned in on the practical effects on the foxes, maybe a little too hard. (Note the bloody shoes!)

I didn't mind the fox, but I think they could have done something slightly different to make it more obviously a fox.

 

 

[Mirefox]

@DigificWriter didn’t read the books, right?  I want to hear more about what he thought of the Finn.

 

That scene must have been absolutely bonkers for some people.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:28 PM, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

Now if there is anything that’s irrational it’s thinking your just going to wrap up an internet argument 😄

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I was wrapping up my post, not the internet argument. 😛

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:31 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I was wrapping up my post, not the internet argument. 😛

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Fair enough

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:28 PM, Mirefox said:

I’ve tried to never attack anyone’s feeling about the show.  I’ve never said anyone can’t like it, or shouldn’t.  I would love to have straight objective discussions but from my background I could probably write a treatise on literary and rational missteps this show has taken from the opening scenes and when I bring them up I am summarily dismissed by a handful who don’t differentiate between opinion and concern about rational, logical story structuring.  Wanting the show to demonstrate a level of craftsmanship that I would hope for with such a compelling source should be a desire absolutely everyone here has but some are as unwilling  to check their positive feelings at the door as those who have a vehement dislike.

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I’m not sure how this is responsive to what I said? I didn’t call you out. Didn’t mention you at all. 
 

Are you suggesting I am “unwilling to check … positive feelings?” Because that is demonstrably untrue. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Whether someone enjoys the show or not does not come down to a discussion of fine details. We can discuss such things as the appearance of the special effects and that is totally different from whether you enjoy it or not. 

 

To try to give an example, I recently was looking up the first description of Berelain for a sketch I was going to do (which was a disaster, sadly) and she first appears in the final paragraphs of tDR. She turns up with a letter from Lanfear for Moiraine. Now Moiraine is a political expert, surely knows that Berelain is in the Stone, surely knows her general description, Berelain is a most remarkable figure, and she is wearing the actual coronet of the First of Mayene. And Moiraine asks her "and who are you, child?" I feel a lot of the criticisms of the show are like taking this and then saying "see? This is objectively bad writing, which means Jordan is a bad writer, which means the books should be taken off the shelves and deleted from ebook libraries." 

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:41 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I’m not sure how this is responsive to what I said? I didn’t call you out. Didn’t mention you at all. 
 

Are you suggesting I am “unwilling to check … positive feelings?” Because that is demonstrably untrue. 

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Didn’t say you specifically.

[wotfan4472]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:56 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Playing devil's advocate here. It's irrational for someone to want the show cancelled because others enjoy it.

 

So it's also irrational that I think shows like Dr. Phil, the Wendy Williams show, and most of Fox News should have been cancelled Decades ago?

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I agree, SinisterDeath. It is wrong to want that. But, at the same time, I get why some do.

 

I have been there myself at least once.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:55 PM, Mirefox said:

Didn’t say you specifically.

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No. But I didn’t mention you either. 

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:56 PM, Elder_Haman said:

No. But I didn’t mention you either. 

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Nope.  Just a back and forth of ideas.  All good.

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:31 PM, Mirefox said:

@DigificWriter didn’t read the books, right?  I want to hear more about what he thought of the Finn.

 

That scene must have been absolutely bonkers for some people.

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I've read some of the books, but stopped because I didn't find them to be enjoyable.

 

Regarding the Eielfinn, I was expecting the design of the one we saw to be more obviously fox-like., but when it comes to their actual inclusion in the story, I already knew they were coming and,therefore wasn't surprised.

Edited April 18 by DigificWriter

[Samt]

  On 4/18/2025 at 1:10 PM, Ithillian Turambar said:

Yup, the Aiel definitely Rules Lawyered the whole, this may have a blade that looks a lot like a sword but it is definitely not a sword cos it has a long wooden handle.

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The justification for using spears was that spears are not dedicated weapons since they can be used as hunting tools.  Swords are only used to kill people.  Logically, that leads to the conclusion that it doesn’t so much matter how you use the spear.  The important thing is that it is a dual use tool.  The same thing comes up with Perrin’s hammer.  

[Ithillian Turambar]

Oh I know the justification and was not really discussing that, what I meant was the blades on their spears have evolved to become awful sword like 🙂

[notpropaganda73]

It was certainly a better finale than the first two seasons imo, but the big moments in the Waste fell very flat for me unfortunately. I think it was @SinisterDeath that said Siuan's final speech went on too long/took away from Rand a little at the end? I agree with that, it was a good end for Siuan but I wasn't sure about it overlapping with the other scenes. 

 

Really, I feel like they needed the events of this episode to be spread across two episodes. Tanchico was the best part for me, but it all felt like such a whirlwind. 

 

I found the "trap" for Lanfear very strange and Egwene's development in the dreamworld very OTT - why wouldn't the Wise Ones be there to help fight Lanfear in the Dream? The Wise Ones really have become totally sidelined after a strong start to the season. I also just didn't enjoy Moiraine v Lanfear at all to be frank, I didn't like the setting out in a random part of the desert (it seemed), and Lan not being there was just a weird choice.

 

I also felt myself nitpicking at those scenes - why would Lanfear believe Lan is dead, surely she would know about the bond at this stage even if she didn't fully understand it? And what benefit did that "surprise" really have? I'll need to rewatch the episode but I came away from all of the Lan and Moiraine and Lanfear scenes just "meh" about it.

 

I like how they have really established Rand and Egwene coming apart in this season, it sets things up well for further down the road (if we ever get there). But something about Alcair Dal just didn't work for me. Rand vs Couladin felt very forced or something, I'm not sure, something was off. But as was mentioned in the thread, this could be a scene that simply works much better on the page than on screen.

 

I am more convinced now than ever that the plan is to have Asmodean in S4 if they get there. They have planted the seed of a Forsaken teaching Rand for show-only watchers. I'm also quite glad Sammael is dead as I wasn't really a fan of that actor.

 

The Eelfinn was definitely strange to look at, sort of cartoon-ish but the creepiness of the scene sort of overtook any initial misgivings I had about the actual look (although whoever called it Dr. Seuss-like - I will not be able to get that out of my head now haha!). I thought it was well done as a scene, and my girlfriend was like "what the FFFF" the whole time haha.  

 

Overall I thought it was fine, I think just the stuff in the Waste not landing for me has left me a bit disappointed with the episode, but will give it a rewatch at some stage over the next few days. 

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:10 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

I think it was @SinisterDeath that said Siuan's final speech went on too long/took away from Rand a little at the end?

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That was me. 

[DigificWriter]

I kind of feel like it's necessary to point out/clarify that the Eelfinn and Aelfinn aren't distinct in the show, which makes me wonder if Elaida met one of the fox-like ones (like Mat did) or if she met one of the snake-like ones instead.

Edited April 18 by DigificWriter

[Sabio]

I think it depends on how many doors the show will claim there are.   Is there going to be one in Tear?

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:19 PM, Sabio said:

I think it depends on how many doors the show will claim there are.   Is there going to be one in Tear?

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The number of doorways and their locations don't really matter because they would all lead to the same place and outcome (a meeting with the Eelfinn).

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:17 PM, DigificWriter said:

the Eelfinn and Aelfinn aren't distinct in the show

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Uhhh. We don’t know that. 

[Sabio]

If just 2 doors, it would make sense one would lead to each.  Maybe they are dumping the snakes all together.  If  there are three or more then I guess anything goes.

[DigificWriter]

@Elder_Haman and @Sabio We know that the Eelfinn and Aelfinn aren't distinct entities in the show because it was covertly revealed weeks (in a BtS featurette) ago that Elaida got her bracelet from the Eelfinn specifically (emphasis mine).

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:34 PM, DigificWriter said:

@Elder_Haman and @Sabio We know that the Eelfinn and Aelfinn aren't distinct entities in the show because it was covertly revealed weeks (in a BtS featurette) ago that Elaida got her bracelet from the Eelfinn specifically (emphasis mine).

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How does that prove that they are not distinct?

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:35 PM, Elder_Haman said:

How does that prove that they are not distinct?

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The fox-like being that Mat met identified itself as Eelfinn, and Elaida's bracelet was identified as having come from the Eelfinn specifically, but she and Mat went through two different doorways.

Edited April 18 by DigificWriter

[Ralph]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:42 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

The fox-like being that Mat met identified itself as Eelfinn, and Elaida's bracelet was identified as having come from the Eelfinn specifically, but she and Mat went through two different doorways.

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So they may be distinct entities, but both accessed through both doorways. (Like in the Tower of Ghenjei)