S3E5 - Tel’aran’rhiod

[notpropaganda73]

  On 3/29/2025 at 3:20 PM, Elder_Haman said:

That’s a siren song for some men, especially if the sex is good. 

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this is also fair, maybe this representation is much more realistic 😅

[Agitel]

Book Rand does come to a sort of uneasy truce with Lanfear. But he's not taken in by her the way he is in the show. 

 

I'm not really opposed to the relationship in the show. I think it's a little sloppily done, but the idea underscores a later plot point that will come up and why Moiraine feels she needs to do as she does. I think that plot point could have been better served by some of Moiraine's visions in the rings without showing everything. Maybe we'll get a flashback to a vision we didn't see before later. 

 

I'm not a fan of the Rand - Egwene - Lanfear triangle, though, or Rand actually being unfaithful. Rand had dreams in the book which he felt terrible about, but he wasn't lucid or in control during them. I just wish Egwene and Rand had broken up before this and Rand wasn't suddenly a cheater. 

Edited Saturday at 03:28 PM by Agitel

[Agitel]

There could also be some minor compulsion at work, but we'll see. 

[Skipp]

  On 3/29/2025 at 1:52 PM, Turin Turambar said:

I agree that Mo & Su work well. I have less trouble with Rand and Lanfear. I think it's possible readers are injecting that we knew she was Lanfear the moment she got on screen.  Rand knew her and fell in love with her as Selene.  He was there how many months? First impressions are strong. Add that she hasn't really done him dirty yet (that he knows about anyway). Finally,  he saw her as Meirin, where she seemed to want to do good for the entire world. Maybe he thinks he can draw her back to that version of herself. 

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Exactly this.  We as an audience see ALL of the horrendous stuff Landfear has done.  Rand on the otherhand has not been witness to this.  He still sees her as Selene and now as Meirn.  I think that will be part of his arc this season where the veil drops and he will actually witness her doing her typical evil.

[Agitel]

I think they're also pulling back on his (stress and madness driven) unwillingness to kill women that develops. They're going to give him a different reason for not striking Lanfear down later, if it still goes down remotely similarly. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/29/2025 at 3:37 PM, Agitel said:

I think they're also pulling back on his (stress and madness driven) unwillingness to kill women that develops. They're going to give him a different reason for not striking Lanfear down later, if it still goes down remotely similarly. 

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I have long argued that this show would be best served by making the audience believe that Rand turning to the Dark is a real possibility. To that end, an emotional connection to Lanfear keeps the tension ratcheting up until the very end. So to that end, I think it is a very smart choice. 
 

It also gives a second compelling reason to keep the Tower of Ghenji in. The audience will tire of the Rand/Lanfear dynamic. If you ice her for a season and change, then bring her back right as things are getting hairy for Rand…

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 3/29/2025 at 4:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I have long argued that this show would be best served by making the audience believe that Rand turning to the Dark is a real possibility. To that end, an emotional connection to Lanfear keeps the tension ratcheting up until the very end. So to that end, I think it is a very smart choice. 
 

It also gives a second compelling reason to keep the Tower of Ghenji in. The audience will tire of the Rand/Lanfear dynamic. If you ice her for a season and change, then bring her back right as things are getting hairy for Rand…

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Back in season 1, I speculated that one of the things they could do with Rand was completely exclude anything of his internal conflict from the camera, and it would all be about how other people reacted to him, effectively changing the story of WoT from "the price of carrying that mountain" to "pity the world that needs a hero". But this show running team very quickly proved they did not have the skill to do that without turning Rand into a tyrant.

 

My current speculation - especially with the red door vision - is we're getting the Tower, taking the women off the board for a couple of seasons. I don't know if they'll do the whole release / rebirth / mind trap thing though. And while I expect Lanfear's outcome will be the same,  the hand doing it will be different - I doubt they have time to build the "putting down a mad dog" thing. I don't think they'll give it to Rand because of Jon / Dany parallels, but I could see Meirin taking Mesaana's outcome. Cause Real Housewives of Randland

[DreadLord31]

It seems like we’ve massively diverged from my actual point … which was that Jordan wasn’t especially good at writing romance & that was an area the show could improve (debate if the changes they’ve made are actually improvements)… but is anyone arguing that Jordan was a master of romance? 😂 

[notpropaganda73]

  On 3/29/2025 at 4:56 PM, DreadLord31 said:

It seems like we’ve massively diverged from my actual point … which was that Jordan wasn’t especially good at writing romance & that was an area the show could improve (debate if the changes they’ve made are actually improvements)… but is anyone arguing that Jordan was a master of romance? 😂 

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oh I totally agree on that haha, and I think the show did a very good job with Nynaeve and Lan for example 

[Ithillian Turambar]

  On 3/29/2025 at 4:56 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Jordan wasn’t especially good at writing romance

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Pretty much people HAD to have sex, either because the Pattern demanded it or they were tied to a bed with ribbons lol

 

[Yamezt]

  On 3/29/2025 at 11:18 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

One thing I will say in general about adaptation choices and specifically with regards to Siuan and Moiraine. I think that expanding their personal relationship is a really good way to show the stakes that are involved here. TV shows and movies do not have the same time or ability to convey character motivations and full personalities and internal monologues that books do. Moiraine is a wonderful character in the books, of course. But giving her personal sacrifice in the show, seeing Siuan say she wished they never heard Gitara's prophecy - that gives the entire arc of both of their stories an extra bit of something for TV audiences. It helps to have two great actresses in these roles. As book lovers, we can sit here and complain that "Duty is enough! The Last Battle is enough of high stakes!" and sure, that's true - but is it? Isn't it more interesting to see what people are willing to give up personally, rather than high concept end-of-the-world stuff? I think I have said on this forum before - and spoilers for anyone who possible hasn't seen Avengers movies (if you are out there!). What makes Endgame so good and Iron Man's entire arc so brilliant is not that he is a good man who will do the good thing and sacrifice himself for the world because that is what good men do. What makes it great is what he feels is his personal failure, with Peter being snapped, his personal journey to fix what he feels he personally messed up

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I agree with what you say about the situation with Moraine and Siuan. I found it extremely tragic for them for what they had sacrifice. 

 

I enjoyed a lot of the other scenes as well, all the dream scene, Moiraine scene with Lan with the Oosquai, and Alanna's scene.

 

I suspect this season will kill off both Moraine and Siuan, and Siuan's character after her fall will be merged with Leane. I would be surprised if they keep both actresses on. Also have been wondering if they will give Lan's bond to Alanna since Alana feels like a merge of Alanna and Myrelle and drop the Rand forced bond storyline - can't quite predict that one - Alanna has suddenly gone all edgy and needing to win the last battle.

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/29/2025 at 8:00 PM, Yamezt said:

I suspect this season will kill off both Moraine and Siuan

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Moiraine's death is definitely happening by the end of the season, but I really don't think they're going to kill Siuan too once they do get to the Tower Coup (which I really don't believe is happening this season even though they're heavily setting it up).

 

Permanently killing Moiraine (which is what I'm beginning to heavily suspect they're going to do) is likely going to inevitably get some people criticizing the show for running afoul of the "bury your gays" trope, and killing off Siuan as well would only fuel the fire of that discourse, which wouldn't be helpful for the show.

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/29/2025 at 8:29 PM, DigificWriter said:

Permanently killing Moiraine

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I, for one, won’t believe it even if I do see it. Seen plenty of main characters “die” already … and they’re just fine 😉 

 

[Yamezt]

  On 3/29/2025 at 8:29 PM, DigificWriter said:

once they do get to the Tower Coup (which I really don't believe is happening this season even though they're heavily setting it up).

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I can't of any reason Leane would look like this besides the tower coup 

Edited Saturday at 08:52 PM by Yamezt

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/29/2025 at 8:51 PM, Yamezt said:

 

I can't of any reason Leane would look like this besides the tower coup 

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A Promo Poster does not always - or always have to - be reflective or representative of a season's plot or story.

[Ralph]

  On 3/28/2025 at 7:41 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Honestly, I'm liking the show (for the most part) in this season. But @DigificWriter haven't you said that you haven't read the books? You're a show-only person? Maybe I'm remembering wrong ... but I don't see how your opinions are even remotely valid when it comes to all these people who LOVE the books feeling that the show is complete garbage due to it's unfaithfulness to the books (when you have no idea how good the books are or just how much the show has diverged from them). Seems like a fish yelling at a bird that it's flying wrong. But I apologize immediately if I've miss-remembered and you ARE actually a book-lover/expert. 

 

 

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Personally I find it very interesting to see viewpoints of non book readers, because that is presumably the main audience they need to attract, and also unbiased by not coming to this hoping to see something they already love. 

 

Also I think most (but not all) of the commenters who dislike the show do not dislike it due to its un faithfulness, at least not consciously, but because they can't see why things have been changed or why the change is an improvement. 

 

 

Separate point - not sure why anyone has a problem with there being some other hair colours amongst the Aiel as long as there nobody red haired anywhere else. And Tigraine is unexplained. (In book also it is a peculiarity that it is unique to Aiel and Andorra royal family iirc ) 

[king of nowhere]

  On 3/29/2025 at 8:29 PM, DigificWriter said:

Permanently killing Moiraine (which is what I'm beginning to heavily suspect they're going to do) is likely going to inevitably get some people criticizing the show for running afoul of the "bury your gays" trope, and killing off Siuan as well would only fuel the fire of that discourse, which wouldn't be helpful for the show.

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after the relationship upgrade they gave elayne and aviendha, and the story of alanna and her warders, and the comments on lan taking part, and some comments made by ishamael...

at this point, if they wanted to "bury their gays", they'd have to kill half the main cast

[Agitel]

I'm 50/50 on the show. 

 

But I can certainly understand why they changed certain plot beats. I've argued in favor of some of the changes, I've acknolwedged what they were going for with others. I don't always agree that the change is for the better even knowing what they're trying to do with it. I also sometimes think they made a change for the right reason but they executed it sloppily. Just because the motivation and beat is right doesn't suddenly make it done well. 

 

I rankle at the idea that detractors are just too stupid to understand, as if there's no room for opinion on what would be best. 

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/29/2025 at 9:47 PM, Ralph said:

Personally I find it very interesting to see viewpoints of non book readers, because that is presumably the main audience they need to attract, and also unbiased by not coming to this hoping to see something they already love.

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I find it interesting too. EDN reaction videos are kind of fun for this very reason.
 

My point was simply that one can’t really critique a book-lovers disappointment in the show due it’s changes from the books if you’ve never read the books and don’t have a reference point for why they feel the way they do! 

 

Because as a book fan, when your expecting a Tv show that was more like Episode 4 of this season (not a 1 to 1 adaptation, but as close as possible with the time-constraints) but you mostly get episodes like S3E5 (I don’t think any of the scenes were from the book?, but it had a WoT-ish feel I’d say) … 

You experience some loss - even if you accept/like the show for what it is. 

 

 

[Agitel]

Perrin sneaking into the White Cloak camp this season was basically revisiting a missed plot beat from season one. Granted somewhat different circumstances, involved characters, and results. I didn't mind this at all.

[DreadLord31]

Honestly, I think the show should just go all out with their strengths - the Chosen win in this turning of the Wheel? 🙂
 

I mean, did you see that Darth Lanfear force choke? 😉 

[Ralph]

  On 3/29/2025 at 11:03 PM, Agitel said:

 

 

I rankle at the idea that detractors are just too stupid to understand, as if there's no room for opinion on what would be best. 

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If this is a response to my post, that is not what I meant at all, and I apologise if that was not clear

 

There are many changes I have disliked also, some where I can't see why they changed it, some for other reasons

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/29/2025 at 10:03 PM, king of nowhere said:

after the relationship upgrade they gave elayne and aviendha, and the story of alanna and her warders, and the comments on lan taking part, and some comments made by ishamael...

at this point, if they wanted to "bury their gays", they'd have to kill half the main cast

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LOL. You're not wrong.

 

Concern retracted.

[Samt]

  On 3/29/2025 at 11:06 PM, Agitel said:

Perrin sneaking into the White Cloak camp this season was basically revisiting a missed plot beat from season one. Granted somewhat different circumstances, involved characters, and results. I didn't mind this at all.

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Perrin sneaks into the WC camp in the two rivers in TSR. 

[DreadLord31]

Moggy needs to instruct her Grey Men to go for the throat … I mean (this is pretty much spot on with the books) can’t a souless assassin catch a break?!