S3E5 - Tel’aran’rhiod

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/27/2025 at 10:33 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

I thought it was a good, not great episode; too disjointed and exposition heavy to really flow as an episode, but it included a lot of book stuff, and I didn't hate all the newly created stuff. Random thoughts...

- I was surprised at what happened to Natti, and disappointed that the horror of that moment was downplayed

- yet again the Wolverine level of self healing ability in this show is robbing the Aes Sedai of any risk

- Elaida and Siuan's interactions were great

- Aviendha's few scenes were right out of the books, making me thing they'll go that way, and the Sister Wife thing makes me think we might get the Rand relationship after all

- Elayne is so much more likeable in the show than in the books; stunned to see the Sea Folk, and thought the entire esthetic was great.

- We got to see the proper destruction a warder can do; need to see Lan do this at least once before the end

- the dream sequence was good; hate the fact that the intro of Egwene and Lanfear was forced beforehand, though. Could have done with a "who's the girl?" 

- Has Egwene failed at anything on the series yet? 

 

And final thought that I haven't seen anyone else call out, because it was a throwaway line, but years have passed since Moiraine's little chat about listening to the wind with Egwene in the Two Rivers. Man, I hate how bad TV is at conveying time's passage. 

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Rafe said from day 1 that Rands 3 relationships where key to the story, but they would be more of a polycule then the more one man and his 3 brides. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

  On 3/28/2025 at 3:27 AM, Pandemonium said:

Seeing a deal being made with the Seafolk before the ship passage would really convey their culture. 

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Except this is the one thing they do not bargain over.  The one seeking passage offers a gift and they either offer the "gift of passage" or do not, there is no haggling.   Technically this is a way to force the traveler to bid high as there is no opportunity to raise your bid but to refer to the gift of passage as a deal would offend them.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:56 PM, Mailman said:

Would have been a fine scene if you had made their meeting more sombre and reflective especially from Rand POV.

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Considering the Aiel's views on Death, I don't know that "sombre" is the correct attitude they'd approach even the Car'a'carn, who is prophesized to take them back and destroy them, so that he can save a remnant of a remanent...

Remember this quote?
"Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day."

The Aiel hold duty above all. They know what lies ahead of them... They know he will destroy them, but they also know that it must be done, for that is their duty as Aiel. 

That doesn't mean they're going to mope their way to their graves like Moiraine was at the beginning of the episode.

No, they're going to enjoy life while they have it, and fight to the last spear, for the last breath if that means a remnant of a remanent of their people can survive.

 

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:33 PM, Mailman said:

If every one of those casting choices had been white there would have been complaints about only casting white people in those roles. Sammael, Moggy, Lanfear and Morgase are all white and clearly evil at this point of the show.

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That's why I said at the end of the post  

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:21 PM, SinisterDeath said:

and it's definitely a hard thing to address.

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Because you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. You obviously can't just cast only white people as villains, but it's also shitty if you just cast only black people as Villains. It's also shitty when you have a mixed cast and the only ones getting killed, or doing the killing are people of color.

During Season 1, there were non-white content creators that pointed out that the show has a colorism issue. So this isn't just me looking to take offense on behalf of people.
 

The shit Valda does in the show is absolutely horrific, and his actor is absolutely nailing it.
Perrin, when he gets a scene is doing a good job. And we've only seen Fain like twice. lol

From a meta standpoint, we have Perrin, a Black Man. In an adrenaline fueled rage he accidently killed his White Wife while defending his home against a Trolloc Attack. Sarah Nakamura almost had an Aneurysm in the writers room because they wanted to make Perrin a Bear Brother. The Writers couldn't see how making a Black Man a Bear Brother could be problematic when the original character is a wolf brother.

You have Valda, who commits Heinous acts of Torture and Violence against Women, and the first scene we see him in, is torturing a White Woman, before burning her at the Stake. 

You have Fain, who is shown to be a corrupting influence on Mat, promoting Stealing and Fencing of Stolen goods. He later goes on to Stab Perrin and "Brother Book", and steals the Horn.

In Season3 , the first thing that comes to mind is the Leane Scene where she beats a black woman to death with her staff. Why did they choose to beat her to death with the staff? 

 

Why did they have Elaida brutally kill Amico (The large colored girl), over Joiya (the skinny white bald girl)? 

 

Like I said, it's tough. You can have a diverse cast and crew, and still face criticism for how the characters are killed off, the reasoning behind it, how the characters act, why the characters do what they do, and whether they're doing what they should be doing for what the stories trying to tell.... and sometimes Writers/Directors bias's do play into this, and sometimes it doesn't. And the "colorism" thing is a valid criticism that has been launched at the show in the past, and I honestly don't know if it's ever been evaluated by the writers/directors because they just look at their cast and crew and see how diverse it is and say "nah we good".

 

 

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:33 PM, Mailman said:

I am not sure having a solitary bald person in the BA out of 11 is exactly falling into the bald = evil trope. Although she is the only bald woman I can remember in the show so maybe?

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It's definitely a trope in Media. 

The last movie I saw that had a "bald woman" in it was Dungeons and Dragons. Can you guess what role she played? lol

 

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:39 PM, Mailman said:

ewwww the thought of all those dangly bits flapping around and potentially getting caught in ropes or on the rigging. That would be a bad place to get a rope burn.

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Sailmistress demands it. 
You get rope burn! You get Rope burn! EVERYBODY GETS ROPE BURN!

 

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:46 PM, Mailman said:

As I have stated before I do not care if they give Rands wives a more sexual component with each other to their relationship.

 

My issue is that in the books they are sisters and the ceremony they undertake clearly involves a rebirth as the twin sister of each other and it clearly seems that rafe is going to keep this ceremony which is called first sisters. If you are happy with the relationship involving an incestuous element then it is no issue.

 

If they remove the maternal birthing segment of the ceremony then it could work, however with this it is will it will not.

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These two are not kissing like sisters.

 

  On 3/29/2025 at 1:22 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

  

  On 3/28/2025 at 3:27 AM, Pandemonium said:

Seeing a deal being made with the Seafolk before the ship passage would really convey their culture.

Expand  

Except this is the one thing they do not bargain over.  The one seeking passage offers a gift and they either offer the "gift of passage" or do not, there is no haggling.   Technically this is a way to force the traveler to bid high as there is no opportunity to raise your bid but to refer to the gift of passage as a deal would offend them.

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Here's something to mull on.

By not showing this haggling process, and the "deal", they can avoid fan discourse over the writers script on just how much Elayne/Nynaeve broke said deal with the Sailmistress... which allows them to hand wave the scenes they got away with on the show.

 

E.g. Instead of showing us a conversation with Aes Sedai and their intricate wording to avoid a lie, they can just imply a conversation between two Aes Sedai happened and that there was some misdirection going on.

 

E.g. It's like those TV Shows where they right Court Room Scenes, but the writers don't actually know how the court system works, so they watch a few episodes of Law and Order, and through out some technical jargon and hope it sticks.

[Agitel]

The Tower must bend da knee. 

 

Rand cheats on Egwene (with a Forsaken!). 

 

The explanation of Rand's belief in the Pattern when he was younger being naive and he has now realized he's free to shape his own destiny while in the books Rand feels less and less free to make his own decisions as he pushed along by forces using him to shape reality. (What did I say in another thread about the eschewing the idea of any higher powers/forces/supernatural in favor of in-world natural explanations? There's a recurring pattern here.)

 

Gonna need some time on this one. 

 

[Agitel]

I have a nice TV, but I didn't think it crossed the line of being too dark, which is something I've complained about with other shows. 

[Agitel]

  On 3/28/2025 at 1:25 PM, Turin Turambar said:

Granted she takes a while but do we have time to have 30 minutes of training in a hour long episode.

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Okay, this is one of the things I'll forgive for the sake of expediency, but no, people don't expect 30 minutes in one episode of training. They don't even expect 30 minutes across an entire season of training. They might expect a quick scene like that and a few comments and some indicators that time had passed so one could infer she's had more time. Maybe a couple other snippets showing she's improving. 

 

But this kind of comes down to the writing. Don't write yourself into corners where you just do things for expediency. Maybe don't (thinking of GOT S7) have a man run many miles in a blizzard so they can send a raven 1500 miles so a dragon can fly 1500 miles in order to save the day all within <24 hours because you just want to connect dots without any respect towards the world or character arcs or proper development. 

 

I'll give the Egwene T'A'R thing a pass, but this is the difference between C and B tier writing and A tier writing. 

[Agitel]

  On 3/28/2025 at 2:33 PM, DigificWriter said:

You also come across as being ignorant of the fact that Moiraine and Siuan's romantic relationship is absolutely present in one of the novels and that the novels also very heavily imply that there was a romantic and sexual aspect to Aviendha and Elayne's relationship in the novels.

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Moiraine and Siuane yes. Elayne and Avi no. I don't mind the change. I think it's a good change. But, looking at the text, we don't need to see every intimate friendship as romantic. We can have an example of a close, intimate female friendship that isn't romantic. We can have close, intimate male friendships that aren't romantic (I'm looking at the "Sam and Frodo are romantic crowd here.) That's not to say don't have queer relationships in media, or even say it's wrong to change things across mediums. But when interpreting texts, I'd just caution against seeing every close, intimate same sex friendship as a romantic relationship. Avi and Elayne were not romantic in the books. They are in the show. And that's fine. 

Edited Saturday at 11:47 AM by Agitel

[Agitel]

  On 3/28/2025 at 7:41 PM, DreadLord31 said:

3) In the books there were massive sections that were boring as hell

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Yeah, I'm going to say NO, I don't agree with this. I get so much being cut for the show, don't get me wrong. But I don't feel this statement. 

 

Edit: Sorry with the multiposts. I'm all caught up now. 

Edited Saturday at 03:17 AM by Agitel

[Mailman]

  On 3/29/2025 at 1:36 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Considering the Aiel's views on Death, I don't know that "sombre" is the correct attitude they'd approach even the Car'a'carn, who is prophesized to take them back and destroy them, so that he can save a remnant of a remanent...

Remember this quote?
"Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day."

The Aiel hold duty above all. They know what lies ahead of them... They know he will destroy them, but they also know that it must be done, for that is their duty as Aiel. 

That doesn't mean they're going to mope their way to their graves like Moiraine was at the beginning of the episode.

No, they're going to enjoy life while they have it, and fight to the last spear, for the last breath if that means a remnant of a remanent of their people can survive.

 

That's why I said at the end of the post  

Because you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. You obviously can't just cast only white people as villains, but it's also shitty if you just cast only black people as Villains. It's also shitty when you have a mixed cast and the only ones getting killed, or doing the killing are people of color.

During Season 1, there were non-white content creators that pointed out that the show has a colorism issue. So this isn't just me looking to take offense on behalf of people.
 

The shit Valda does in the show is absolutely horrific, and his actor is absolutely nailing it.
Perrin, when he gets a scene is doing a good job. And we've only seen Fain like twice. lol

From a meta standpoint, we have Perrin, a Black Man. In an adrenaline fueled rage he accidently killed his White Wife while defending his home against a Trolloc Attack. Sarah Nakamura almost had an Aneurysm in the writers room because they wanted to make Perrin a Bear Brother. The Writers couldn't see how making a Black Man a Bear Brother could be problematic when the original character is a wolf brother.

You have Valda, who commits Heinous acts of Torture and Violence against Women, and the first scene we see him in, is torturing a White Woman, before burning her at the Stake. 

You have Fain, who is shown to be a corrupting influence on Mat, promoting Stealing and Fencing of Stolen goods. He later goes on to Stab Perrin and "Brother Book", and steals the Horn.

In Season3 , the first thing that comes to mind is the Leane Scene where she beats a black woman to death with her staff. Why did they choose to beat her to death with the staff? 

 

Why did they have Elaida brutally kill Amico (The large colored girl), over Joiya (the skinny white bald girl)? 

 

Like I said, it's tough. You can have a diverse cast and crew, and still face criticism for how the characters are killed off, the reasoning behind it, how the characters act, why the characters do what they do, and whether they're doing what they should be doing for what the stories trying to tell.... and sometimes Writers/Directors bias's do play into this, and sometimes it doesn't. And the "colorism" thing is a valid criticism that has been launched at the show in the past, and I honestly don't know if it's ever been evaluated by the writers/directors because they just look at their cast and crew and see how diverse it is and say "nah we good".

 

 

It's definitely a trope in Media. 

The last movie I saw that had a "bald woman" in it was Dungeons and Dragons. Can you guess what role she played? lol

 

Sailmistress demands it. 
You get rope burn! You get Rope burn! EVERYBODY GETS ROPE BURN!

 

These two are not kissing like sisters.

 

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That certainly is not Rand's lived experience though. And being stoic does not exactly fit with the way he and the child acted. For the audience it is still tonally discordant as Rand who only a couple of scenes earlier learned the Aiels history and shame and only just before that learned that he would destroy almost their entire civilization. It's the same level of discordance as when Rand was being one of the boys at the pub joking about sleeping with Lanfear, it's simply not the reaction a normal person would display when faced with a incredibly confusing and emotional situation like that.

 

I think we are agreeing that by having a diverse cast you are going to have a diverse set of people being good and bad and some people are going to read things into those choices. I had not thought it heavily or deliberately skewed.

 

Yep but that picture is from the show where it very much feels like they are going to make those relationships sexual. My concerns are mainly to do with the ceremony and the fact that they were sisters not lovers in the books which requires changing the relationship dynamics.

 

It also raises the question are we going to see some threesomes or moresomes. When not all the characters are sleeping together it is not a question when they are all sleeping together it becomes likely that they would engage in this activity. I am not against it I am just saying if this is the relationship going forward do we expect this to be shown.

Edited Saturday at 04:59 AM by Mailman

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/29/2025 at 4:51 AM, Mailman said:

That certainly is not Rand's lived experience though. And being stoic does not exactly fit with the way he and the child acted. For the audience it is still tonally discordant as Rand who only a couple of scenes earlier learned the Aiels history and shame and only just before that learned that he would destroy almost their entire civilization.

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Two parts to this.

Well, there were two parts to this. Why were the Aiel and the Kid all laughing and gleeful despite knowing who rand was? See above.

 

Why was Rand acting the way he was? The Madness.

 

 

[Irvyne]

  On 3/28/2025 at 2:33 PM, DigificWriter said:

You also come across as being ignorant of the fact that Moiraine and Siuan's romantic relationship is absolutely present in one of the novels and that the novels also very heavily imply that there was a romantic and sexual aspect to Aviendha and Elayne's relationship in the novels.

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Moiraine and Siuan? "Romantic relationship" is a stretch. It's suggested they may have played around a bit when they were studying in the tower together. It's like one paragraph. Both characters have romantic relationships with men in the main story.

 

As for Aviendha and Elayne, could you provide a quote to back up that claim of "heavily implied" romance? Admittedly, I'm only in the middle of Book 7 in my third read-through, but I was NEVER given any impression that their relationship was any more than good friends / makeshift sisters. Having them be lesbian lovers in the show rings entirely untrue to the text, and just comes across as wild hand-waving, "Look at us! We're a modern, progressive show ticking all the boxes!"

[zacz1987]

My main issue with Rand chasing the kid was that he did not respectfully greet the Roofmistress and participate in the ritual of asking to enter her hold/house etc. It seemed very disrespectful to the culture and insulting to the Roofmistress. 

 

If they had had a scene with him playing with the kids after he had performed the ritual it would not have seemed so out of place.

[Mailman]

  On 3/29/2025 at 4:59 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Two parts to this.

Well, there were two parts to this. Why were the Aiel and the Kid all laughing and gleeful despite knowing who rand was? See above.

 

Why was Rand acting the way he was? The Madness.

 

 

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So you are saying the tonal discordance is real and was intended.

 

I think the Taarad where happy because their chief had returned. I don't think they should have been joyful with Rand given they knew who he was and what his future speaks for the Aiel. Which was my point. Grim, stoic, and committed not laughing and gleeful.

 

We have seen no real development of Rand being taken by the Madness at this point. You are suggesting this as it's first appearance?

 

I'm sorry I don't buy those as the reasons. I believe they wanted to set up a relationship between Rand and the kid to make a future scene hit harder, this was not an impossibility what I question is the manner they have chosen to achieve it.

 

For example have Rand training with Lan and then Rhurrac approaches and offers to help him learn the spear or hand to hand fighting and have the girl laugh at his initial attempts and then even joins in on the lesson mirroring the moves along with the men.

Edited Saturday at 05:18 AM by Mailman

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/29/2025 at 5:09 AM, Mailman said:

We have seen no real development of Rand being taken by the Madness at this point. You are suggesting this as it's first appearance?

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Really? Did you not notice his conversation with Egwene in S3E1 where they're holding parallel discussions? And then his euphoric state trying to let go of the one Power? Or in the follow up episode where he talks to Moiraine about what the taint on Saidin is like? He's a little bit touched already at this point, and Lanfear isn't helping things.

[Mailman]

  On 3/29/2025 at 5:28 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Really? Did you not notice his conversation with Egwene in S3E1 where they're holding parallel discussions? And then his euphoric state trying to let go of the one Power? Or in the follow up episode where he talks to Moiraine about what the taint on Saidin is like? He's a little bit touched already at this point, and Lanfear isn't helping things.

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The euphoria of holding the power is well established and his lucid conversation about what the taint feels like is not madness, he is talking about the thing that will drive him mad in the end. 

 

I'm sorry I don't recall that s3e1 convo.

[notpropaganda73]

I am really surprised at the extent of some of the negativity to this episode. It was a classic TV episode that comes after a big, epic one - it was quieter, it was revisiting characters we haven't seen, it was moving pieces around the board. And those episodes can be BORING - but I actually really enjoyed this one! It gave me a lot of things I feel has been missing from the show across three seasons, quiet moments for characters, letting things breathe a little bit, hints at these people's true character if they were not thrust into this insane, world-ending story.

 

Was it perfect? No, not even close, and of course I have complaints as always haha - but for a TV show I think it did a very good job with this sort of episode. 

 

And I understand some folks being very very disappointed with the show as a whole, and maybe this episode sums up why for them, but I suppose I'm seeing it in the context of this specific season and I think this season is doing a very good job. 

 

I also thought that Egwene dream-hopping felt a little off, not because "oh she's able to do this", but these are people's dreams, extremely personal. I actually didn't see it as the show saying "look how awesome Egwene is", it more felt like a check-in on all our characters and how they see themselves. I found it interesting Nynaeve dreamed of home, of being the Wisdom, and not of Lan (I thought it was a nice touch). My main complaint with this sequence is Perrin did not notice her in his dream - either this means the Dream is not something for Perrin and the Wolves (which I would absolutely hate), or the writers' missed this beat (which I would be very disappointed with, and is another small misstep that keeps this show at a solid 6-7/10 rather than top tier adaptation).

 

One thing I will say in general about adaptation choices and specifically with regards to Siuan and Moiraine. I think that expanding their personal relationship is a really good way to show the stakes that are involved here. TV shows and movies do not have the same time or ability to convey character motivations and full personalities and internal monologues that books do. Moiraine is a wonderful character in the books, of course. But giving her personal sacrifice in the show, seeing Siuan say she wished they never heard Gitara's prophecy - that gives the entire arc of both of their stories an extra bit of something for TV audiences. It helps to have two great actresses in these roles. As book lovers, we can sit here and complain that "Duty is enough! The Last Battle is enough of high stakes!" and sure, that's true - but is it? Isn't it more interesting to see what people are willing to give up personally, rather than high concept end-of-the-world stuff? I think I have said on this forum before - and spoilers for anyone who possible hasn't seen Avengers movies (if you are out there!). What makes Endgame so good and Iron Man's entire arc so brilliant is not that he is a good man who will do the good thing and sacrifice himself for the world because that is what good men do. What makes it great is what he feels is his personal failure, with Peter being snapped, his personal journey to fix what he feels he personally messed up. 

 

Coming back to WoT, I do not give a damn about a change like this for the show - all I care about is whether it's working within the show. And for me, Moiraine and Siuan is working brilliantly.

 

An example of something I think is not working at all, at least not for me, is the Rand - Egwene - Lanfear triangle. For me, Rand in the books was always struggling with his identity, with who he is, with who he has to become as the Dragon. The madness was a tinge to that as well - is he too far gone? We have had hints of his identity struggle in the show and they tend to be my favourite Rand moments. We haven't had any of the madness I don't think. Any time Lanfear and Rand meet in the dream I am, frankly, bored - I don't find it at all engaging and I don't find it believable that Rand would be tempted by her in this way. I could have gotten on board with Rand believing that Lanfear could possibly be saved. But I suppose that Book-Rand is so embedded in my brain, I cannot believe he would ever engage with her like Show-Rand has. I could even get on board with this if we were seeing more of Rand "too far gone" things and Lanfear trying to exploit that. But it feels surface level, forbidden-love type drama, with very little depth in my opinion.

 

For me, this is an aspect of the show that just hasn't worked at all, and I'm struggling with it any time this plot is being played out. And I know I will struggle in later episodes as Egwene confronts him about what she saw in the Dream. 

[notpropaganda73]

I will also say: SEA FOLK! I didn't expect any exploration of them in the show (there is so much to adapt), but they were done brilliantly.

 

Also: HOPPER!

[Mailman]

Was it just me or did the wolf heads in the white cloak camp look much bigger than Hopper's head?

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/29/2025 at 11:46 AM, Mailman said:

Was it just me or did the wolf heads in the white cloak camp look much bigger than Hopper's head?

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They were. Hopper is small for a real wolf. The prop guys probably just used real wolf dimensions. 

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/29/2025 at 11:18 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

I am really surprised at the extent of some of the negativity to this episode. It was a classic TV episode that comes after a big, epic one - it was quieter, it was revisiting characters we haven't seen, it was moving pieces around the board. And those episodes can be BORING - but I actually really enjoyed this one! It gave me a lot of things I feel has been missing from the show across three seasons, quiet moments for characters, letting things breathe a little bit, hints at these people's true character if they were not thrust into this insane, world-ending story.

 

Was it perfect? No, not even close, and of course I have complaints as always haha - but for a TV show I think it did a very good job with this sort of episode. 

 

And I understand some folks being very very disappointed with the show as a whole, and maybe this episode sums up why for them, but I suppose I'm seeing it in the context of this specific season and I think this season is doing a very good job. 

 

I also thought that Egwene dream-hopping felt a little off, not because "oh she's able to do this", but these are people's dreams, extremely personal. I actually didn't see it as the show saying "look how awesome Egwene is", it more felt like a check-in on all our characters and how they see themselves. I found it interesting Nynaeve dreamed of home, of being the Wisdom, and not of Lan (I thought it was a nice touch). My main complaint with this sequence is Perrin did not notice her in his dream - either this means the Dream is not something for Perrin and the Wolves (which I would absolutely hate), or the writers' missed this beat (which I would be very disappointed with, and is another small misstep that keeps this show at a solid 6-7/10 rather than top tier adaptation).

 

One thing I will say in general about adaptation choices and specifically with regards to Siuan and Moiraine. I think that expanding their personal relationship is a really good way to show the stakes that are involved here. TV shows and movies do not have the same time or ability to convey character motivations and full personalities and internal monologues that books do. Moiraine is a wonderful character in the books, of course. But giving her personal sacrifice in the show, seeing Siuan say she wished they never heard Gitara's prophecy - that gives the entire arc of both of their stories an extra bit of something for TV audiences. It helps to have two great actresses in these roles. As book lovers, we can sit here and complain that "Duty is enough! The Last Battle is enough of high stakes!" and sure, that's true - but is it? Isn't it more interesting to see what people are willing to give up personally, rather than high concept end-of-the-world stuff? I think I have said on this forum before - and spoilers for anyone who possible hasn't seen Avengers movies (if you are out there!). What makes Endgame so good and Iron Man's entire arc so brilliant is not that he is a good man who will do the good thing and sacrifice himself for the world because that is what good men do. What makes it great is what he feels is his personal failure, with Peter being snapped, his personal journey to fix what he feels he personally messed up. 

 

Coming back to WoT, I do not give a damn about a change like this for the show - all I care about is whether it's working within the show. And for me, Moiraine and Siuan is working brilliantly.

 

An example of something I think is not working at all, at least not for me, is the Rand - Egwene - Lanfear triangle. For me, Rand in the books was always struggling with his identity, with who he is, with who he has to become as the Dragon. The madness was a tinge to that as well - is he too far gone? We have had hints of his identity struggle in the show and they tend to be my favourite Rand moments. We haven't had any of the madness I don't think. Any time Lanfear and Rand meet in the dream I am, frankly, bored - I don't find it at all engaging and I don't find it believable that Rand would be tempted by her in this way. I could have gotten on board with Rand believing that Lanfear could possibly be saved. But I suppose that Book-Rand is so embedded in my brain, I cannot believe he would ever engage with her like Show-Rand has. I could even get on board with this if we were seeing more of Rand "too far gone" things and Lanfear trying to exploit that. But it feels surface level, forbidden-love type drama, with very little depth in my opinion.

 

For me, this is an aspect of the show that just hasn't worked at all, and I'm struggling with it any time this plot is being played out. And I know I will struggle in later episodes as Egwene confronts him about what she saw in the Dream. 

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I agree that Mo & Su work well. I have less trouble with Rand and Lanfear. I think it's possible readers are injecting that we knew she was Lanfear the moment she got on screen.  Rand knew her and fell in love with her as Selene.  He was there how many months? First impressions are strong. Add that she hasn't really done him dirty yet (that he knows about anyway). Finally,  he saw her as Meirin, where she seemed to want to do good for the entire world. Maybe he thinks he can draw her back to that version of herself. 

[notpropaganda73]

  On 3/29/2025 at 1:52 PM, Turin Turambar said:

I agree that Mo & Su work well. I have less trouble with Rand and Lanfear. I think it's possible readers are injecting that we knew she was Lanfear the moment she got on screen.  Rand knew her and fell in love with her as Selene.  He was there how many months? First impressions are strong. Add that she hasn't really done him dirty yet (that he knows about anyway). Finally,  he saw her as Meirin, where she seemed to want to do good for the entire world. Maybe he thinks he can draw her back to that version of herself. 

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No doubt my book biases are hard to suppress at times, but for me I don't really believe that he is in love with her. Maybe that's book knowledge seeping through but there is something about their scenes that just don't seem real or genuine in terms of love or anything like it. The only time I felt Lanfear was being authentic on screen was the Mierin flashback. Every other scene feels manipulative, and I think what is frustrating me is Rand feels much too naive around her.

 

Even giving Rand some grace for falling in love with Selene etc., he knows who she is now and what she is capable of, he knows the stories and what she has done even in Cairhien when he baited her into rescuing him. He knows from his Rhuidean visions what she did in releasing the Dark One. But he doesn't seem to account for that when talking to her in his dreams. Maybe he is but it's not coming across to me. 

 

And maybe this finally coming to a head with Egwene will mean things are said and are out in the open a bit more and it might pay off a little. But as it stands it's just frustrating for me 😅

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/29/2025 at 2:46 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

Even giving Rand some grace for falling in love with Selene etc., he knows who she is now and what she is capable of, he knows the stories and what she has done even in Cairhien when he baited her into rescuing him. He knows from his Rhuidean visions what she did in releasing the Dark One. But he doesn't seem to account for that when talking to her in his dreams. Maybe he is but it's not coming across to me. 

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Love doesn't adhere to logic.

 

Yes, Rand knows all of those things; they aren't going to stop his love for her, though, because you can't just cut love off like you're snapping your fingers.

[Agitel]

If I learned that my wife was a brutal torturer and genocidal-level maniac who had led terrible mass-atrocity-commiting armies trying to conquer the world for a cosmic entity she'd willingly sworn herself to that is looking to bring misery and suffering and pain and despair to all... that would damage our relationship a mite. Might even feel lied to and betrayed. 

Edited Saturday at 03:10 PM by Agitel

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/29/2025 at 3:08 PM, Agitel said:

If I learned that my wife was a brutal torturer and genocidal-level maniac who had led terrible mass-atrocity-commiting armies trying to conquer the world for a cosmic entity she'd willingly sworn herself to that is looking to bring misery and suffering and pain and despair to all... that would damage our relationship a mite. Might even feel lied to and betrayed. 

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But Rand can change her!! Remember, she’s manipulating him into thinking this wasn’t really her fault. She’s just been misunderstood. 
 

And she’s been actively helping him, telling him she loves him, how she wants to reform and break her dark oaths and kill the Dark One. 
 

That’s a siren song for some men, especially if the sex is good. 

[notpropaganda73]

  On 3/29/2025 at 3:04 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Love doesn't adhere to logic.

 

Yes, Rand knows all of those things; they aren't going to stop his love for her, though, because you can't just cut love off like you're snapping your fingers.

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it's one thing not adhering to logic, it's another to seemingly disregard all of those things with no turmoil about it. 

 

He seems to have not struggled at all with who Lanfear really is and only wishing about who she once was and could be again. But, I'm hoping there will be some payoff there.