Wheel of Time Season 3 - Full Season Discussion

[Mailman]

  On 3/16/2025 at 3:28 PM, DigificWriter said:

We've already gotten indications that a decision on Season 4 will be made based on views, and while we'll never actually know what the show's 'success threshold' is, I feel confident in its ability to reach/surpass said threshold just because of the prevalence of Prime Video and the general pervasive interest in the Fantasy genre that dominates societal culture.

Expand  

I'm 100% sure that if there is a season4 they will say it is based on the numbers, it's the truth of that statement I question, we all know that the desperation to have a GoT was strong in the development of WoT and RoP and clearly they have got nowhere near it at this point if the numbers are still not there does the studio and Bezos cop the hit to their pride caused by cancelling it or just plow on.

[Windigo]

  On 3/16/2025 at 3:28 PM, DigificWriter said:

We've already gotten indications that a decision on Season 4 will be made based on views, and while we'll never actually know what the show's 'success threshold' is, I feel confident in its ability to reach/surpass said threshold just because of the prevalence of Prime Video and the general pervasive interest in the Fantasy genre that dominates societal culture.

Expand  

Prime video prevalence is is strong, but Netflix is still at least 3 times the number of subscribers 

  On 3/17/2025 at 12:08 AM, Mailman said:

I'm 100% sure that if there is a season4 they will say it is based on the numbers, it's the truth of that statement I question, we all know that the desperation to have a GoT was strong in the development of WoT and RoP and clearly they have got nowhere near it at this point if the numbers are still not there does the studio and Bezos cop the hit to their pride caused by cancelling it or just plow on.

Expand  

We do not know if it is Amazon or Sony that is considering pulling the plug, could all come down to their contract negotiations.

I do not think there is any way in todays streaming market to get a GoT. 
GOT was HBO which had market saturation on streaming and cable. 
Today even if you have multiple streaming, finding out what is on or even finding things to watch is not easy, even social media is more distributed now, compared to 2011. 
With only 8 episodes with 2 years in between, shows like WoT are just going to struggle. 
All of the lets keep actor's and everything secret for 2 years? It is like they do not understand the building of a social media and fan following, they need to keep them engaged between seasons. 
 

Edited Monday at 12:11 PM by Windigo

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/17/2025 at 12:09 PM, Windigo said:

Prime video prevalence is is strong, but Netflix is still at least 3 times the number of subscribers 

Expand  

 

Not really. The most recent numbers we have available to us list Netflix's subscriber count at 301.6 million, which is a mere 100.6 million more people than are subscribed to Amazon Prime globally (Prime Video is automatically included for every one of those 200 million subscribers, even if not all of them actually use it).

 

I did just learn that the current hurdle to getting Season 4 doesn't appear to be on Amazon's end, but I still feel confident that things will get worked out positively in the end.

[Gary Again]

I'm enjoying it so far and I think Rahvin is great, Morgase I thought they went a little too GOT with that whole thing but I like how they used that throughout the episode to set other things up. I think they did a good job making her ruthless but showing how much she cared for Elayne and she respected Elayne for standing up to her it was a nice moment. I also like how they are using that Cersi ness to make people wonder about Galad and Gawyn and the dynamic with Mat is hilarious and they paid it off well with the staff fight. I guess my one nit pick here is I think in the books Mat didn't whoop them because of his superior ancestral memories the joke was more that with extended range of the staff the sword skill didn't matter and a farmer that knew what they were doing could whoop any swordsman. I think he even put that in the history too where the best swordsman ever got beat by a farmer with a big stick lol. But still the entire arc of Mat vs the Princes was hilarious and this was a great payoff and I liked how Nynaeve started rooting for him.

 

I also feel like they did a good job splitting and condensing the story lines I think they did a pretty efficient job of it. They have had some questionable changes in the past but I think everything here makes sense and each story has a lot going on. Rhuidian is just one of the best parts of the books, same with Perrin's return to the two rivers, Mat and the wonder girls and what happens in Tanchico should be good and I think each of these actors is also nailing it and then the white tower is set up well and I like Elaida and how they are setting all of that up. I think each of these stories is strong and will make good TV it should be a packed season.

 

And interesting dynamic that the show has that the book doesn't is how much of what we see of Galad, Gawyn, Morgase and Elaida are what Rahvin set up with compulsion. That's a pretty interesting thing that didn't happen in the books but it's really interesting to me because all of them (and Elayne) could unwittingly be working for his benefit. It could make Rahvin more effective than he was in the books to have all of these people wandering around under his compulsion. I like that about all of the forsaken too how they are just sprinkling them in to the story organically and I hope there are some that are also already in the show that they haven't revealed. I think that helps drive home how insidious the shadow is. I also like how they are setting up Bornhald and Perrin where it isn't so cut and dry and there is a lot more grey area there. I think this is why they did the whole wife fridge is what was between Perrin and Bornhald in the books made the decisions too obvious and easy for Perrin, here there is a lot more grey area which makes things more interesting between them.

 

Overall there some things I thought I would change but they don't bother me too much I think overall they are doing a lot right and it's shaping up to be a good season of TV. I don't know if they are going to pay off all of this in one year I think that may be a lot but it would explain why the pacing is quick they just have a lot to get through each of these.

 

 

Edited Monday at 05:03 PM by Gary Again

[Agitel]

I haven't watched S3E3 yet, but one observation I've had is the show seems to want to provide "natural" explanations for things. There's so little religion in the book, but even the sort of theological explanations we see about the Pattern and the Dark One seemed toned down. 

 

So for example, I'm looking at the endings of S1 and S2. Both of these books have really weird endings. I really didn't mind the idea behind the changes in S1, but still. End of S1 we get the Creator's voice removed. Not a big deal.

 

But then end of S2 we lose the real battle in the sky. TBH this battle was always kind of weird, especially in respect to the later books. But still, there's something higher (the Pattern) at work drawing these prophecies and moments together and announcing it to the entire world. S2 just removes all of that. The conflict we see is much more "natural". Then the major announcement to the world is also not some larger power at work but just Moiraine doing something with the One Power. 

 

Now in S3E2 we have Bubbles of Evil. But rather than go with it being the Dark One's increasing influence and power rippling across the Pattern... It's just Lanfear and Moiraine conspiring to make things happen. A "natural" explanation. 

 

And these changes may all have had specific motivations to better set up specific arcs, but in each case it's taking almost theological/religious events of a sort and making them just the machinations of individuals at best, explaining them away. 

 

Maybe S3E3 has a major counter example. I'm curious to see. 

 

But I did want to observe that I've been disappointed in a lot of adaptations and expansions of beloved IPs recently. The ones that seem to resonate better are the ones that embrace the oddities and eccentricities of the source material, rather than be like "oh that won't work for a TV audience" according to our focus groups and executives. And by oddities I really don't just mean beat for beat adaptations, mind you. But just the wonkier stuff you see in the setting/original medium and just leaning into it rather than shying away. Whether Fallout or One Piece. 

Edited Monday at 08:15 PM by Agitel

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/17/2025 at 8:10 PM, Agitel said:

in each case it's taking almost theological/religious events of a sort and making them just the machinations of individuals at best, explaining them away. 

Expand  

It would take an awful lot of heavy exposition to do many of these things and I just don't know that that payoff would be worth it. For example, the actual "battle in the sky". What would that even look like? How would you do it in a way that didn't seem incredibly cheesy? (At least they gave it a nod with the drawing Rand sees.)

 

They are leaning more into the idea that the Dark One is a real entity this season. They've introduced the concept of Nae'blis. Moggy disclosed that the consequence of breaking your Oaths to the Dark is a 'true death', which I take to mean being eradicated from the pattern as opposed to being Reborn during another Turning. 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/17/2025 at 8:37 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Moggy disclosed that the consequence of breaking your Oaths to the Dark is a 'true death', which I take to mean being eradicated from the pattern as opposed to being Reborn during another Turning. 

Expand  

In Book WoT, a "true death" would just mean you can't be "reborn" until the next age. 

e.g. what happens to your soul after you get balefired.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/17/2025 at 8:53 PM, SinisterDeath said:

In Book WoT, a "true death" would just mean you can't be "reborn" until the next age. 

e.g. what happens to your soul after you get balefired.

Expand  

Yes. I think this is definitely a change to Jordan's theology. (Assuming that both Moggy's statement and my interpretation of it are correct.) Though it is still leaning into a "more theological" aspect of the story, in line with what @Agitel was discussing.

[Kaleb]

  On 3/17/2025 at 8:10 PM, Agitel said:

And these changes may all have had specific motivations to better set up specific arcs, but in each case it's taking almost theological/religious events of a sort and making them just the machinations of individuals at best, explaining them away. 

Expand  

For the examples you gave (ending climaxes of book 1 and 2, bubbles of evil), I think it makes visual sense for television to tie those things to individual characters' actions. I do hope we'll start to explore the Dark One more this season, and I think they'll do that through unnatural weather like in the books. I don't necessarily think we'll get the full Bowl Of The Winds plot and the devastating winter that follows, but a condensation of that could work. Or we could just jump to food getting rotten unnaturally and the dead appearing out of nowhere.

 

I like the forsaken figures and the shrine, as well as the funeral rites and the persistent use of seven-spoked wheels across several cultures. In those small ways, the show has given me a very solid sense of the spiritual background of this world without much exposition.

Edited Monday at 09:27 PM by Kaleb

[king of nowhere]

  On 3/17/2025 at 8:10 PM, Agitel said:

I haven't watched S3E3 yet, but one observation I've had is the show seems to want to provide "natural" explanations for things. There's so little religion in the book, but even the sort of theological explanations we see about the Pattern and the Dark One seemed toned down. 

 

 

Now in S3E2 we have Bubbles of Evil. But rather than go with it being the Dark One's increasing influence and power rippling across the Pattern... It's just Lanfear and Moiraine conspiring to make things happen. A "natural" explanation. 

 

And these changes may all have had specific motivations to better set up specific arcs, but in each case it's taking almost theological/religious events of a sort and making them just the machinations of individuals at best, explaining them away.

 

Expand  

 

  On 3/17/2025 at 8:37 PM, Elder_Haman said:

It would take an awful lot of heavy exposition to do many of these things and I just don't know that that payoff would be worth it.

 

 

Expand  

i second this idea. occam's razor and all that; saying "a foresaken did it" is just a lot simpler than explaining bubbles of evil.

[Agitel]

There's been plenty of times in the past where I've used that same argument, but after seeing so many more adaptations over the last decade... I just don't buy it anymore. And even if we cut the battle of the sky, which I don't think necessary, I don't find it at all necessary to just demystify everything, such as having Moiraine make the dragon at the end. It's all about set up and payoff and appropriate foreshadowing. 

 

And the Bubble of Evil is simple enough to explain. However, changing it lets them use it to different purposes, tying it into the manipulation to leave Tar Valon, getting Lanfear and Moiraine interacting and bargaining with each other, showing Moraine's ruthlessness, and tying all these beats together. I know what they're doing and why. 

 

(Edit: I do generally approve of the changes in S1 ending (or the idea behind it... execution was a little rough). It ties it into the serie's broader themes. I won't say more outside of a full book discussion. But it's just a pattern I see repeating.)

 

And I'm not necessarily complaining so much as observing the sort of demystification and tying what in this world would be supernatural to hard, scientific and natural reasons. I do think there is a little something that is lost there, but not without any gain (such as what I explained regarding the Bubble of Evil).

 

But apart from any specifics of the show, I'm over the whole "it just wouldn't adapt to cinema well" in adaptations. It's generally a bad reason to make changes, or at least an overused one. At this point I appreciate adaptations that lean into the wonky. And this is different than wanting everything adapted beat to beat. It's more about personality than literalism. 

 

I'm just going to agree to disagree that these things needed to be changed because a TV audience wouldn't get it.

Edited Tuesday at 01:57 AM by Agitel

[Agitel]

Oh, I put this in the S3E3 thread, but E3 was pretty good. I enjoyed myself through the whole thing. Just wanted to throw that out there. 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:47 AM, Agitel said:

There's been plenty of times in the past where I've used that same argument, but after seeing so many more adaptations over the last decade... I just don't buy it anymore. And even if we cut the battle of the sky, which I don't think necessary, I don't find it at all necessary to just demystify everything, such as having Moiraine make the dragon at the end. It's all about set up and payoff and appropriate foreshadowing. 

 

And the Bubble of Evil is simple enough to explain. However, changing it lets them use it to different purposes, tying it into the manipulation to leave Tar Valon, getting Lanfear and Moiraine interacting and bargaining with each other, showing Moraine's ruthlessness, and tying all these beats together. I know what they're doing and why. 

 

(Edit: I do generally approve of the changes in S1 ending (or the idea behind it... execution was a little rough). It ties it into the serie's broader themes. I won't say more outside of a full book discussion. But it's just a pattern I see repeating.)

 

And I'm not necessarily complaining so much as observing the sort of demystification and tying what in this world would be supernatural to hard, scientific and natural reasons. I do think there is a little something that is lost there, but not without any gain (such as what I explained regarding the Bubble of Evil).

 

But apart from any specifics of the show, I'm over the whole "it just wouldn't adapt to cinema well" in adaptations. It's generally a bad reason to make changes, or at least an overused one. At this point I appreciate adaptations that lean into the wonky. And this is different than wanting everything adapted beat to beat. It's more about personality than literalism. 

 

I'm just going to agree to disagree that these things needed to be changed because a TV audience wouldn't get it.

Expand  

I will say that I'm with you on the idea that they're "demystifying" the bad guy in the series, and it's not lost on me that so far they've "removed" the Dark One's presence from the show. I understand the idea that writers/directors wanting to explain the bad things happening onto an explainable entity like the forsaken, when the books were able to do that so effectively via It was the Dark One.

 

I'm really hoping as the series progresses, we get to see the Dark One's corruption on the world take root as Rand's Wound takes root, and that they really tie the Arthurian Mythos of Rand and the Fisher King, where Rand's worsening Health is tied to the Land's health and rotting of the land. That when Rand has a fever, the Land, the Lands boil with Heat. 

 

I think That could be a really interesting Dynamic to introduce to the show beyond just the dark one did it.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

  On 3/17/2025 at 8:53 PM, SinisterDeath said:

In Book WoT, a "true death" would just mean you can't be "reborn" until the next age. 

e.g. what happens to your soul after you get balefired.

Expand  

The books do have people take oaths "on the hope of my salvation and rebirth" - so they have at least the concept that rebirth depends on actions in your current life (although this is only the view the people have, it does not mean that you can actually forfeit your rebirth - certainly Ishy/Moridin appeared to be of the view that he would be endlessly reborn no matter what until the DO got free and ended time). 

[DigificWriter]

Off-topic vent incoming (sorry):

 

It's really weird - and frustrating - to me that, even two seasons later, there are still people out there who insist that Siuan and Moiraine's "FFH" was Tel'aran'rhiod despite direct confirmation to the contrary from Rafe Judkins himself.

 

Okay, vent over.

 

Back to S3 discussion.

 

I don't think I've said this yet, but I really like Faile; her interactions with Perrin were fun and there's definitely palpable chemistry between them.

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 4:59 AM, DigificWriter said:

Off-topic vent incoming (sorry):

 

It's really weird - and frustrating - to me that, even two seasons later, there are still people out there who insist that Siuan and Moiraine's "FFH" was Tel'aran'rhiod despite direct confirmation to the contrary from Rafe Judkins himself.

 

Okay, vent over.

 

Back to S3 discussion.

 

I don't think I've said this yet, but I really like Faile; her interactions with Perrin were fun and there's definitely palpable chemistry between them.

Expand  

I don't watch a lot of outside media stuff what did judkins say it was?

I also don't think it should be mandatory for people to watch outside things to explain internal show material.

[DigificWriter]

In the interim between Seasons 1 and 2, Dragonmount conducted a Q&A with Rafe on Twitter and asked a question that was specifically about the "Love Shack" Ter'angreal that Moiraine and Siuan use in The Flame of Tar Valon and the physical location to which said Ter'angreal led, prompting the following response:

  Quote

The love shack ter’angreal is one of our favorite bits. It’s one of those adaptation pieces that you don’t technically need but really helped put a visual/emotional stamp on the secret relationship between Moiraine and Siuan. And the writers lovingly refer to it as the FFH

Expand  

 

He didn't hesitate to answer the question or try to correct the presumption that the "FFH" was an actual physical place, a presumption predicated on Prime Video Bonus Material that explicitly identified the "Love Shack" Ter'angreal as being Ter'angreal and the location of the "FFH" itself as a fishing hut in the Fingers of the Dragon River Delta in Tear, thereby confirming that the "FFH" was in fact an actual location.

 

The flashback Cold Open from Daes Daemar (Episode 2x07) later retroactively explained the existence of the "FFH" by revealing that Siuan and Moiraine both wanted to retire to a fishing hut after completing their Aes Sedai duties, and also provided, through its content, the context of and meaning for the "FFH" acronym itself (Fishwives F*ck Hut).

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 5:37 AM, DigificWriter said:

In the interim between Seasons 1 and 2, Dragonmount conducted a Q&A with Rafe on Twitter and asked a question that was specifically about the "Love Shack" Ter'angreal that Moiraine and Siuan use in The Flame of Tar Valon and the physical location to which said Ter'angreal led, prompting the following response:

 

He didn't hesitate to answer the question or try to correct the presumption that the "FFH" was an actual physical place, a presumption predicated on Prime Video Bonus Material that explicitly identified the "Love Shack" Ter'angreal as being Ter'angreal and the location of the "FFH" itself as a fishing hut in the Fingers of the Dragon River Delta in Tear, thereby confirming that the "FFH" was in fact an actual location.

 

The flashback Cold Open from Daes Daemar (Episode 2x07) later retroactively explained the existence of the "FFH" by revealing that Siuan and Moiraine both wanted to retire to a fishing hut after completing their Aes Sedai duties, and also provided, through its content, the context of and meaning for the "FFH" acronym itself (Fishwives F*ck Hut).

Expand  

Still does not seem to give us much information of the limits of the Ter'angreal how did the destination get set can it be set somewhere else. It's a pretty incredible bit of equipment considering travelling is not around.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 6:03 AM, Mailman said:

Still does not seem to give us much information of the limits of the Ter'angreal how did the destination get set can it be set somewhere else. It's a pretty incredible bit of equipment considering travelling is not around.

Expand  

Why on earth do we need to know any of this?

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:00 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Why on earth do we need to know any of this?

Expand  

Because an item that can transport you across the world in an instant is amazingly powerful. You cannot think of any uses for it?

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:02 PM, Mailman said:

Because an item that can transport you across the world in an instant is amazingly powerful. You cannot think of any uses for it?

Expand  

Plenty. But why do I need to know this to enjoy the show?

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:05 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Plenty. But why do I need to know this to enjoy the show?

Expand  

You clearly don't.

 

But when you put an object that can transport people across the world in an instant and then never use it again to transport people across the world despite enormous travel times it's not unreasonable to ask why.

 

Moiraine i think had to travel past the FFH on the way back to TV why not use it.

Edited Tuesday at 01:08 PM by Mailman

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:07 PM, Mailman said:

Moiraine i think had to travel past the FFH on the way back to TV why not use it.

Expand  

 

Simple answer: her half of the Ter'angreal is in her room in the Tower, and she is not.

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:14 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Simple answer: her half of the Ter'angreal is in her room in the Tower, and she is not.

Expand  

Is that just a guess or do you have an actual source for that?

 

The issue is introducing it and never using it again for travel when its potential value is world bending poses questions that are not unreasonable in anyway.

Edited Tuesday at 01:27 PM by Mailman

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:21 PM, Mailman said:

Is that just a guess or do you have an actual source for that?

Expand  

 

Why would I need a source? It's a logical conclusion based on the fact that the only time we see her use it, she is in her room in the Tower, and she left it where it was - on the wall - whilst she used it.

 

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:21 PM, Mailman said:

The issue is introducing it and never using it again for travel

Expand  

 

That is actually not an issue for anyone other than you.

Edited Tuesday at 01:28 PM by DigificWriter