S3E3:Seeds of Shadow

[Mailman]

  On 3/16/2025 at 2:21 PM, Elder_Haman said:

“Train wrecks?” Come on, man. 

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Maybe? Just maybe if I did not have the books would I think it was a CW level show, having them I stand by my assessment.

 

I have listed the things I find good and bad about the show and am more than happy to debate them on their merits?

Edited Monday at 12:27 AM by Mailman

[Mailman]

  On 3/16/2025 at 7:58 PM, DigificWriter said:

Touching on whether or not the wedding slaughter would draw attention to the Black Ajah, I would point out that it happened inside a private residence that belonged, in some way, to Liandrin given that the groom was a member of the family of her own (presumedly dead) husband.

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It could, removing such a huge number of people from a local community would cause waves. Friends, family and business connections may come looking. They could just use compulsion on everyone that investigates I suppose, but that actually assumes they can use compulsion the weave they use on the girl seems to be a memory wipe instead.

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/16/2025 at 11:49 PM, Mailman said:

Maybe? Just maybe if I did not have the books would I think it was a CW level show, having them I stand by my assessment.

 

I have listed the things I find good and bad about the show and am more than happy to debate them on their merits?

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When you're literally one of the only people acting like these episodes are bad, you're not judging them on their merits; you're judging them on yours, and therefore aren't actually interested in being fair and unbiased. 

[Mailman]

  On 3/17/2025 at 1:53 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

When you're literally one of the only people acting like these episodes are bad, you're not judging them on their merits; you're judging them on yours, and therefore aren't actually interested in being fair and unbiased. 

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You speak with such certainty in every post you make and you claim that I am unbiased.

 

I have listed the things I find bad about the episodes and the few things I find good, debate me on the content instead of yet again attacking me.

[notpropaganda73]

The Black Ajah murder spree is really the only thing I really really didn't like about this episode. It breaks a bit of immersion for me for the reasons Mailman says about it being such a public move imo. There are some other small things I took issue with, however I think this episode was the best so far this season.

 

- I love Rhuarc and Bair! Such good casting and great character building moments so far. A good indicator of how quickly you can establish a character with small bits of dialogue and actions (Rhuarc burying the Lost Ones).

- "That is Wise One's business" hahaha

- Mat and the quarterstaff! I just wish there was a bit more of an audience to it. But it was really well choreographed, I think they are trying to establish that Mat was capable even before the memories issue, but he's definitely accessing something else now. One small thing, when he speaks the Old Tongue, I don't see any translations for it, is that the same for everyone else? It's a bit of a strange choice for the show if so in my opinion. 

- Faile! Great casting as well. I was surprised at Lord Luc's appearance, I for sure thought he would be cut. 

- Some Perrin ta'vereness going on with getting the Two Rivers folks to stay?

- I have watched this episode twice and when Nynaeve and Elayne are figuring out Tanchico, before the Grey Man attack. Elayne says something like "Tanchico is next to Falme, where the Seanchan landed, where they came from centuries ago". What? Did I misunderstand her lines here? Because if not I have no idea what that's supposed to mean or how that helps them decide to go to Tanchico. 

- Suspicion being cast on Verin this early doesn't quite sit right with me but I suppose they do need to condense things, my girlfriend picked up on it right away and I've just said how really they can't trust anyone, so it's good to question everyone. 

- Rand and Lanfear in the Dream, I think they are really going down the love triangle route with Rand, Lanfear and Egwene and honestly I do not like it at all. I also didn't like that scene in general, but Natasha O'Keeffe really sells these scenes in fairness. 

 

Overall I think this season is very strong so far. There are choices made and bits that I haven't liked, but overall I'm much more positive about things than I was at this point of S2 for example. And from most reviews I believe this next episode is one of the best. I am nervous because Rhuidean is my favourite (and I know many people feel the same), but I hope they do it justice.

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/17/2025 at 10:33 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

Because if not I have no idea what that's supposed to mean or how that helps them decide to go to Tanchico

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One of the items that Nyomi stole was the bracelet portion of a male A'dam; because the Sean'chan use A'dams and Tanchico is near Falme and Toman Head (the Sean'chan's original territory centuries ago), Elayne discerns that the most likely location for the collar portion of the male A'dam that the Black Ajah are looking for is Tanchico. Liandrin being from Tanchico - which they figured out based on the symbol that they found in Aludran's rooms - means that she would know that Tanchico is the most likely location of the collar portion of the male A'dam and is therefore why she (Liandrin) would take her fellow Black Ajah there (in addition to her personal desire to lay her son's soul to rest ritualistically).

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/17/2025 at 10:33 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

I have watched this episode twice and when Nynaeve and Elayne are figuring out Tanchico, before the Grey Man attack. Elayne says something like "Tanchico is next to Falme, where the Seanchan landed, where they came from centuries ago". What? Did I misunderstand her lines here? Because if not I have no idea what that's supposed to mean or how that helps them decide to go to Tanchico. 

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I went back to that scene to get the exact dialogue, but from what I recalled, it was made clear prior that Liandrin was from Tanchico, and that the Bracelet had a connection to the Seanchan / Sul'Dam. So Elayne was making the Connection that the Seanchan left from Tanchico, and that must be where the matching collar is from, and why Liandrin is in Tanchico.

  Quote

 

Elayne: "Is that... "
Nynaeve: "A bracelet. Like the Seanchan sul'dams use to control channelers, but older."

Elayne: "Tanchico... Tanchico is near Falme, where the Seanchan Landed. Where they came from centuries ago."

Nynaeve: "And Liandrin's in Tanchico"

Elyane: "looking for the matching collar."

Gray Man *Looks menacingly as he shoots a bolt from a crossbow*

 

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Does this answer the question?

 

[Mailman]

  On 3/17/2025 at 1:10 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

One of the items that Nyomi stole was the bracelet portion of a male A'dam; because the Sean'chan use A'dams and Tanchico is near Falme and Toman Head (the Sean'chan's original territory centuries ago), Elayne discerns that the most likely location for the collar portion of the male A'dam that the Black Ajah are looking for is Tanchico. Liandrin being from Tanchico - which they figured out based on the symbol that they found in Aludran's rooms - means that she would know that Tanchico is the most likely location of the collar portion of the male A'dam and is therefore why she (Liandrin) would take her fellow Black Ajah there (in addition to her personal desire to lay her son's soul to rest ritualistically).

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That would be a lore change from the books then the Seachan were descendants of Hawkings empire which spanned basically the entire world and they did not have A'dam till after they arrived across the sea. That does not mean it could not be there but the reason for searching there is wrong though.

Edited Monday at 01:21 PM by Mailman

[LTL]

Only watched it once so far so apologies if I'm remembering incorrectly, but I thought they worked out that Liandrin was going to Tanchico because the sign she made under the bed of her son was a sign that the people of Tanchico make in the place of someone's death and also the place of their birth after they die. So Liandrin making that sign where he died suggests she knows she is going to Tanchico to make the sign where he was born also. Then they are just connecting that it could also make sense that the collar could be there, which would tie in with Liandrin knowing she's going there. A thought process of "Liandrin is going to Tanchico, but why... oh Tanchico is near where the Seanchan landed so it makes sense as a place the collar could be." 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/17/2025 at 1:19 PM, Mailman said:

That would be a lore change from the books then the Seachan were descendants of Hawkings empire which spanned basically the entire world and they did not have A'dam till after they arrived across the sea. That does not mean it could not be there but the reason for searching there is wrong though.

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The version in the show (and books) still predates the Seanchan version, which is where, as my above quote
"A bracelet. Like the Seanchan sul'dams use to control channelers, but older."

Implies.

Similar to the books, there's still the plot where Liandrin has a grand scheme to attempt to collar Rand.

I also can't remember if Liandrin was going to attempt to give a collared Rand, or the collar itself to the Seanchan when they landed at Falme..  my memories fuzzy on this... but also, their plans obviously got interrupted by the wonder girls.

[notpropaganda73]

Thanks for the replies - I think what confused me was "Where they came from centuries ago", it implied to me that Elayne already had this knowledge of where the Seanchan came from as opposed to figuring that out. But I may also be misremembering something from S2 and what they've learned about the Seanchan up to this point! 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/16/2025 at 8:39 AM, Mailman said:

I would actually love something like that to have been shown.

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It was in S2. Bain and Chiad basically appeared from nowhere. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/17/2025 at 4:44 PM, Elder_Haman said:

It was in S2. Bain and Chiad basically appeared from nowhere. 

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Perrin saw Bain & Chiad before they showed up, but that's because he's Perrin.

[Agitel]

Alright, I'm caught up through S3E3. I enjoyed this one. Gonna let it percolate more. 

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/16/2025 at 11:49 PM, Mailman said:

Maybe? Just maybe if I did not have the books would I think it was a CW level show, having them I stand by my assessment.

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I would agree with you in this assessment about the first 2 seasons - they were CW esque (but had darker moments for sure). 
 

I disagree with you about this season though. 
 

You don’t think this season (Tv wise - books aside) is better? 
 

Im genuinely curious what fantasy shows you find to be better? Cause I think WoT S3 is hands down better thus far than anything I’m watching except Daredevil… 

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 4:01 AM, DreadLord31 said:

I would agree with you in this assessment about the first 2 seasons - they were CW esque (but had darker moments for sure). 
 

I disagree with you about this season though. 
 

You don’t think this season (Tv wise - books aside) is better? 
 

Im genuinely curious what fantasy shows you find to be better? Cause I think WoT S3 is hands down better thus far than anything I’m watching except Daredevil… 

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The start of the season is stained by the battle sequence. It's fine if you just want to watch what is admittedly pretty good CGI and turn your brain off as too it's logistics.

 

The whole two rivers group and 3 Aiel just wandering around Tar Valon is just madness. The boys sitting in a tavern and yelling words like the two rivers and the dragon across the room after being warned that spies were everywhere just makes them morons especially for the male channeler.

 

Moiraine and Lanfear working together I'm not sure just how much this would bother me without the books but it just feels totally wrong.

 

Rand bragging about sleeping with Lanfear without any even seemingly mixed feeling, this is a creature of legendary evil used to scare children.

 

Healing abilities are insane and have no consequences for the healed or the healer.

 

Episode 2 is more difficult as a lot of the things I find objectionable are impossible to spilt from the books.

 

Morgase is just an entirely new character and the whole opening to me just seems to be an attempt to be like GoT.

 

Gaebril/Rahvins compulsion is massively OP especially with having a totally needless 10-year backstory. 

 

Time jumps and character locations are very hard to track. People are just immediately in the next location. The ways are just being used don't really feel super dangerous.

 

The tower having a strange training ground inside and the princes just banging novices. The princes fight was silly and needlessly dangerous using real swords.

 

Episode 3 had less going on and the damage was hence lessened. Too much focus on tower politics still. Could also be my dislike of the first 2 episodes of this season numbing me a bit.

 

 

I have not started watching the new Daredevil as yet. I am not currently in a good place with marvel, since around Homecoming they have fallen off a cliff in quality to the point i am not watching either cinema or TV show releases, I am planning on trying new Daredevil.

 

The original first season of Daredevil was great with 2 and 3 being worse

Jessica Jones first season was very good with season 2 being a disappointment.

The first season of Arcane I really enjoyed however the second season not so much I think partly because of the huge wait between seasons.

Good Omens is excellent.

 

Older stuff. Buffy, Angel, Expanse (early seasons) Firefly, Pushing Daisies, Dead Like Me, Stargates, TNG

Taskmaster UK I know not right category but if you are not watching it you are missing out.

There would be others i am forgetting i'm sure.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 5:40 AM, Mailman said:

Buffy, Angel, Expanse (early seasons) Firefly, Pushing Daisies, Dead Like Me, Stargates, TNG

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Right. LMFAO. Because none of these shows had poor writing, a single logical inconsistency, or places where you just have to turn your brain off to enjoy the action. 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/18/2025 at 5:40 AM, Mailman said:

The whole two rivers group and 3 Aiel just wandering around Tar Valon is just madness. The boys sitting in a tavern and yelling words like the two rivers and the dragon across the room after being warned that spies were everywhere just makes them morons especially for the male channeler.

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I feel like we read two different books. 😛 

 

[Storeebooq]

Honestly, I can excuse a lot of things due to them having to adapt to TV and keeping non-book reading audience (like the deplorable tactic of the BA killing an entire family to take over the estate? How the heck are they going to cover that up...anyways..)

 

BUT I'm a little miffed over how they have taken out the need to give verbal instructions to compulsion and having Rahvin just hit everyone he meets. On one hand, it makes it more dangerous...but on the other hand, I thought the verbal instruction part of Compulsion at least gave it balance in the books. You had to be using it tactfully. Not just walking into the Hall chocked FULL of sisters and slamming on one or all of them with out a single word spoken...come on! That's way too OP and convenient. Even if they show later that it took a lot of out-of-scene prep on his part (like setting up weaves, or whatever). Too easy. 

(And yes, I know they could do Compulsion with out instructions and have someone just become completely adoring to the other. But that wouldn't give them knowledge, like having Leane go from not knowing Gabriel's name to suddenly having the knowledge. It didn't work like that in the books). 

 

I'll give it makes the Forsaken more dangerous....it's just too "easy" seeming. 

Edited Tuesday at 06:16 PM by Storeebooq

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/18/2025 at 6:14 PM, Storeebooq said:

Honestly, I can excuse a lot of things due to them having to adapt to TV and keeping non-book reading audience (like the deplorable tactic of the BA killing an entire family to take over the estate? How the heck are they going to cover that up...anyways..)

 

BUT I'm a little miffed over how they have taken out the need to give verbal instructions to compulsion and having Rahvin just hit everyone he meets. On one hand, it makes it more dangerous...but on the other hand, I thought the verbal instruction part of Compulsion at least gave it balance in the books. You had to be using it tactfully. Not just walking into the Hall chocked FULL of sisters and slamming on one or all of them with out a single word spoken...come on! That's way too OP and convenient. Even if they show later that it took a lot of out-of-scene prep on his part (like setting up weaves, or whatever). Too easy. 

(And yes, I know they could do Compulsion with out instructions and have someone just become completely adoring to the other. But that wouldn't give them knowledge, like having Leane go from not knowing Gabriel's name to suddenly having the knowledge. It didn't work like that in the books). 

 

I'll give it makes the Forsaken more dangerous....it's just too "easy" seeming. 

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I don't think the BA is going to worry about it. I also expect Tanchico (especially this area) is a place where people know how to not question certain things.

 

I don't remember Graendahl giving verbal instructions when using compulsion.  I also think it was kinda the easiest way to express it in the books. If they say what they're doing then we know what they're doing. I also thought Gaebril might have. Related some sort of construct of magic to implant the thought of him being the Prince Consort. Sort of like the inverse of "no one knows Peter Parker is Spiderman". These are supposed to be some of the most skilled chanellers of the most magicy time in this world's history. I kinda think they should be capable of amazing things.

[Skipp]

Lanfear also mentions that Rahvin "is an artist with compulsion ".  So it OP effects of it may be limited to him.  I think that is also canon to the books with Ravhin not only being among the strongest forsaken but that he was also quite good with that weave.

[Skipp]

I don't believe I have seen anyone bring this up yet concerning Elaida.  We have all focused on her tremors in episode 3 but we didn't pay attention to the bracelet she is wearing.  The same bracelet that is awkwardly brought up by Min later in the episode. Particularly what is engraved on the bracelet.

 

A few days ago Shohreh Aghdashloo posted this BTS clip on Twitter.  

 

Well some eagle eyed viewer found this prop sheet and took a screenshot. Potential spoilers for the rest of the season.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/18/2025 at 5:40 AM, Mailman said:

The whole two rivers group and 3 Aiel just wandering around Tar Valon is just madness. The boys sitting in a tavern and yelling words like the two rivers and the dragon across the room after being warned that spies were everywhere just makes them morons especially for the male channeler.

 

Moiraine and Lanfear working together I'm not sure just how much this would bother me without the books but it just feels totally wrong.

 

Rand bragging about sleeping with Lanfear without any even seemingly mixed feeling, this is a creature of legendary evil used to scare children.

 

Healing abilities are insane and have no consequences for the healed or the healer.

 

Episode 2 is more difficult as a lot of the things I find objectionable are impossible to spilt from the books.

 

Morgase is just an entirely new character and the whole opening to me just seems to be an attempt to be like GoT.

 

Gaebril/Rahvins compulsion is massively OP especially with having a totally needless 10-year backstory. 

 

Time jumps and character locations are very hard to track. People are just immediately in the next location. The ways are just being used don't really feel super dangerous.

 

The tower having a strange training ground inside and the princes just banging novi

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You know - all of these objections - I feel as well - but as a Book Fanatic. I don't think most of them even register for non-readers! And as Tv, I just don't think people care. 

 

For example, I too really did not like the Aiel and Rand being in TV at all. And then add on top of that them not disguising at all but just walking through the streets like ... no big deal. But I feel that Because of the books. If you were just watching the show, maybe ... maybe you had the thought "In that one cool cold open from S1 where the pregnant Aiel woman single-handedly took down a bunch of armored soldiers ... did they say something about the Aiel war & Aiel fighting outside the walls of TV? Hm... that was like, 20 years ago, right? Strange people wouldn't still see them as enemies ... but ok!" But other than that, do we have any reason to believe in the show world that Aiel are seen as the big bad, ultimate warriors that ought to stay on ... that side of the world? 

 

I think Rand is portraying that he has very mixed feelings - and I think they are playing on that this season with a Lanfear/Egwene/Rand romance/drama dynamic. In the show world, Selene was really Rand's only adult relationship besides Egwene - and he didn't know she was Lanfear when he was getting attached to her. Now he does - but he also knows she can probably kill him or people close to him if she wanted too. 

 

On the healing thing - I think all of us - book and Tv fans, unless we're just die hard WoTTv defenders have to admit you're right here. This is what I will consistently say they are still being CW-esque in and just sucking at as writers. In every season thus far, we have had a TON of "fake-out-deaths". It's got to be pretty close to 1 per episode. Remember in season 1 where they tried to make us believe that basically all the main characters were going die because Logain broke an ax breaking out of his shield ... but Nynaeve mass healed everybody (because she might be the Dragon?)?? Remember S1 finale where Nyn or was it Eggy (can't remember) seemingly healed death? So yes - I agree with you - thus far in S3, by my count, at least 4 of the central characters should be dead (Liandrin - double swords to the chest, Nyn - stabbed 11 times, Egwene - stabbed several times, Perrin - ax to chest, all in Ep1). 

 

Got to admit though - Morgase intro cold open surprised every-single-one of us innocent sheepherders (Tv and book readers!) Did not see that coming. 

 

In the show, we know almost nothing about Compulsion - what we know is that Rahvin is probably the best at it. And I think it's rather clever how they showed that - "And you are ... oh yes, Gabriel." 

 

Anyways ... my point is ... difficult to write something for book and non-book fans. The hardest-core book fans will always have a lot of knits to pick with a Tv adaption. 

 

 

 

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 2:13 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I feel like we read two different books. 😛 

 

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I think we must have if you think early books Rand would have sat in a tavern in the middle of Tar Valon and yelled the word Dragon.

Edited Tuesday at 10:22 PM by Mailman

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 7:54 PM, DreadLord31 said:

I think Rand is portraying that he has very mixed feelings - and I think they are playing on that this season with a Lanfear/Egwene/Rand romance/drama dynamic. In the show world, Selene was really Rand's only adult relationship besides Egwene - and he didn't know she was Lanfear when he was getting attached to her. Now he does - but he also knows she can probably kill him or people close to him if she wanted too. 

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I am more accepting of the scenes outside the tavern one in regards to his mixed feelings about Lanfear, having him have the jokey boys to boys chat about sleeping with her just does not sit well there is no indication in that exchange that he has mixed feeling about it.