Who is Mesaana?

[DemandredFO]

I don't see how Mesaana could be Tarna.  I mean why would Mesaana make herself Eliada's keeper?

[Vemynal]

because then messana is in direct control of Elaida instead of having to deal with Avalrin

[Luckers]

The theory that Mesaana was Tarna has been disproven. It was strong in its day--the physical requirements, not to mention the fact that the Forsaken icon appeared in the first chapter Tarna appeared in despite no Forsaken being present... but her POV in KoD rules her out.

 

Danelle was always stronger than Tarna anyway.

[Asmo]

If people can freely modulate their apparent strength in the Power from zero - unable to channel - to their maximum power, then relevant strength won't get us anywhere in determining who Mesaana is.

 

An interesting - and irrelevant - question would be whether female channelers can do something to make them appear stronger than they really are to anyone who senses them.

 

At any rate, I believe Mesaana is Danelle.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I'll have to reread KoD. At any rate, couldn't it be possible that the PoV was written in such a way as to hide her identity?

[Majsju]

I'll have to reread KoD. At any rate, couldn't it be possible that the PoV was written in such a way as to hide her identity?

 

No, there is absolutely no such possibility. Re-read, and you will see why.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Unless I've missed something, if Tarna is eliminated isn't the only choice Danelle? Unless she is Mistress of the Kitchens or something. Lol.

[Majsju]

Well, yes...Though Danelle was the #1 suspect long before Tarna was proved innocent.

[Kaznen]

I just don't believe Mesaana is hiding as an AS.  All the forsaken think of them with nothing but contempt.  I think she might be hiding as a servant.

 

And the POV in CoT doesn't prove anything.  She looks like somebody that AS thinks looks familiar. 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Let's look at who she could be:  

 

Adeleas Namelle

The Great Hunt, Chapter 22

 

Brown Ajah of the rebel Aes Sedai.

Sister to Vandene, who looks almost exactly like her.

In a CoS she was in Ebou Dar with Nynaeve and Elayne.

She was killed at the end of PoD.  Her throat was slit by an unknown assailant.  It seemed to be done by someone in Elayne's group.  Both her and Ispan were poisoned with crimsonthorn root in their tea.

 

Dead, so therefore, not Mesaana

 

Akarrin

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 40

 

Brown Ajah of the rebel Aes Sedai.

Slender.

 

With the rebels therefore Not Mesaana

 

Akoure

Winter's Heart, Prologue

Gray Ajah.

Formerly of the Tower Aes Sedai.

Now in the hands of the Asha'man.

 

Bound to the Asha'man, not in the Tower, so clearly Not Mesaana

 

Alanna Mosvani

The Great Hunt, Chapter 4

 

Green Ajah.

Her Warders are Ihvon , and Rand al'Thor.

Dark and slender with waves of black hair, and a light in her eyes that spoke of a temper.

One of the Aes Sedai who healed Mat.

Bonded Rand as one of her Warders, and tried to use compulsion on him, but that didn't work out considering he was touching the True Source.

During the Battle of Dumai's Wells she was made to kneel and swear fealty to Rand.

Min saw a viewing in which she knows that Rand can trust her.

 

Do you really think Rand could trust a Forsaken?Not Mesaana

 

Alviarin Freidhen

The Great Hunt, Chapter 12

Black Ajah, posing as a White.

Former Keeper of the Chronicles under Elaida

In CoT, she was removed from her position as Keeper of Chronicles by Elaida.

Taking orders from Mesaana.

 

Seriously. Not. Mesaana.

 

Amico Nagoyin

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 25

Black Ajah.

Slender and pretty, with a long neck and pale skin.

The girls captured her at the end of DR, and she was cut off from the True Source.

Died during the Trolloc invasion of the Stone.

 

First, she's dead. Second, she fled the tower and there are no clues which indicate she is Mesaana. Not Mesaana.

 

Anaiya

The Great Hunt, Chapter 4

 

Blue Ajah of the rebel Aes Sedai.

Dark Haired, and bluff faced.

Former friend of Moiraine.

One of the Aes Sedai who healed Mat.

Has a lot of influence towards other Aes Sedai, even the Hall.

Has sworn fealty to Egwene.

In CoT she and her Warder Setagana were murdered.  Nisao detected a resonance of Saidin around both of them, wich means Halima killed them.

 

Murdered. Not Mesaana.

 

Ananda

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 1

Yellow Ajah.

Died during the tower split.

 

Killed. Not Mesaana

 

Angla

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 14

A novice of the rebel Aes Sedai.(?)

 

She's with the rebels, plus novices don't wear silk.Not Mesaana

 

Annoura Larisen

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 5

Gray Ajah, was advisor for Colavaere when she was Queen of Caihrien.

From Tarabon.

Now advisor for Berelain.

 

Not in the Tower, therefore Not Mesaana.

 

Ashmanaille

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 14

Gray Ajah of the rebel Aes Sedai.

Lanky.

 

A rebel. Not Mesaana

 

Asne Zeramene

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 38

 

Black Ajah posing as a Green. Dark tilted eyes, and a bold nose.

 

She's mentioned once. RJ said we could figure out who Mesaana was. Not Mesaana.

 

Beldeine Nyram

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 25

Green Ajah of the Tower Aes Sedai.

Captured at Dumai's Wells.

She has sworn fealty to Rand.

Not enough information to figure out if she is Mesaana

 

Beldemaine

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 30

Yellow Ajah.

From Arafel.

Plump and wears silver bells in her hair.

 

Not enough information, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Beonin

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 27

Gray Ajah of the rebel Aes Sedai.

Dark honey hair, with blue-gray eyes so big that they make her appear startled.

Doesn't believe anything until she sees it herself.

Has a lot of influence towards other Aes Sedai, even the Hall.

 

A rebel, therefore not Mesaana.

 

Bera Harkin

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 27

 

Green Ajah of the rebel Aes Sedai.

Went to the Aiel waste with Kiruna assuming Rand was still there, while he was actually in Caemlyn.

Brown hair cut close around a square face.

During the Battle of Dumai's Wells she was made to kneel and swear fealty to Rand.

Min saw a viewing in which she knows that Rand can trust her.

 

Again, I doubt Rand could trust a Forsaken. Not Mesaana

 

Berenicia Morsad

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 41

Yellow Ajah of the rebel Aes Sedai.

Part of the embassy in Caemlyn.

 

A rebel, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Berisha

A Crown of Swords, Prologue

Gray Ajah of the Tower Aes Sedai.

Lean and hard-eyed.

 

Not enough information. Not Mesaana

 

Berylla Naron

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 18

Black Ajah.

 

Black Ajah, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Bharatine

The Lord of Chaos, Chapter 14

Green Ajah of the rebel Aes Sedai.

Makes rail thin look graceful, and a long nose elegant.

 

A rebel, therefore Not Mesaana

 

 

Bodewhin (Bode) Cauthon

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 13

 

Mat's sister.

Was taken prisoner in the Whitecloak camp, and later rescued by Perrin.

Verin and Alanna took her to Salidar to become Aes Sedai.

Born with the ability to channel, she is now a Novice with the rebel Aes Sedai.

 

A rebel, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Brendas

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 18

 

White Ajah of the rebel Aes Sedai.

One of the Aes Sedai that healed Mat.

 

A rebel, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Cabriana Mecandes

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 6

Blue Ajah

An Aes Sedai who was tortured by Semirhage, for information on Salidar.

 

Dead, so Not Mesaana

 

Cadsuane Melaidhrin

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 18

 

Green Ajah.

No allegiance to either the Tower or the rebel Aes Sedai.

A strikingly handsome woman.  Iron-gray hair in a bun on top of her head, decorated with dangling gold ornaments (which might be some sort of angreal).

From what is said in a CoS she is over 270 years old.  She has worn the shawl longer than any other Aes Sedai living.  Most thought she was dead, until she appeared in Caihrien.

Most Aes Sedai look up to her, and she can pretty much take control of any situation.

Rand has a problem trusting her, but that seems to be resolved at the end of Winter's Heart.

 

Not in the tower, therefore Not Mesaana

 

 

Calindin

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 14

 

An Accepted with the rebel Aes Sedai.  Has been Accepted for over ten years.(ouch!)

From Tarabon.  Her black hair is in a multitude of thin braids.

 

A rebel, therefore Not Mesaana

 

 

Careane Fransi

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 30

Green Ajah.

Not quite stout, but shoulders as wide, and arms as thick as any mans.

Despite her heft she moves like a swan.

Her Warder is Ciaryl Arjuna.

Currently she is Caemlyn.

A suspect in Adeleas's murder.

 

In Caemlyn, therefore Not Mesaana

 

 

Carlinya

The Great Hunt, Chapter 4

 

White Ajah of the rebel Aes Sedai.

Has a lot of influence towards other Aes Sedai, even the Hall.

 

A rebel, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Chesa

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 36

 

Egwene's personal maid.

Plumply pretty, with a twinkle in her eye.

 

A rebel, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Chesmal Emry

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 25

Black Ajah.

 

A rebel, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Coiren Saeldain

Lord of Chaos, Prologue

Gray Ajah.

Of the Tower Aes Sedai.

Plump and pompous.

Leader of the Tower Embassy that went to Caihrien.

Also responsible for kidnapping Rand and trying to take him to the Tower.

Captured at the Battle of Dumai's Wells.

 

Not in the Tower, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Corele Hovian

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 19

Yellow Ajah.

From Murandy.

Boyishly thin with thick, black eyebrows, and a mass of raven hair that made her look wild.

She bonded Damer Flinn as her Warder.

 

Not in the tower, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Covarla Baldene

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 32

 

Red Ajah.

Of the Tower Aes Sedai.

Part of the group that kidnapped Rand.

She escaped the Battle of Dumai's Wells and returned to Tar Valon to report to Elaida .

 

I don't really think Mesaana would have personally gone with the embassy to capture Rand, isn't that kind of risky? Therefore Not Mesaana

 

Dagdara Finchey

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 50

Yellow Ajah.

Wider than any man, and taller than most.  Graying hair, which marks considerable age among Aes Sedai.

 

Old, ugly, and not enough information, therefore Not Mesaana

 

 

Daigian Moseneillin

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 19

 

White Ajah.

From Caihrien.  A plump, pale woman who wears a thin silver chain in her long black hair, with a moonstone hanging in the middle of her forehead.

She has taken Eben Hopwil as her Warder.

 

Not even in the  Tower, therefore Not Mesaana

 

Danelle

The Fires of Heaven, Prologue

 

Brown Ajah, of the Tower Aes Sedai.

Often lost in a dream.

Big blue eyes.  A solitary woman with no friends even in her own Ajah.

 

Could be Mesaana. The description fits, it would be ideal that Mesaana pick someone who had few friends.

 

I'll do more later. I am tired.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I just don't believe Mesaana is hiding as an AS.  All the forsaken think of them with nothing but contempt.  I think she might be hiding as a servant.

 

And the POV in CoT doesn't prove anything.  She looks like somebody that AS thinks looks familiar. 

Yes, but RJ said that we could figure out who she is by the 9th book, and that we've seen her mentioned.

[havoc110]

I myself never understood the idea that she wouldn't pose as an AS

because of disdain for them, but that a servant to a/the AS would be

acceptable.  Does not compute.

 

Ealdur:

Great work.  I am interested in your screening process on who is

on the list of suspects.  Are you going through every listed AS?

Did you consider non-AS?  (Even though I think she's posing as an AS,

it doesn't make it true, now, does it?)

 

Definitely awaiting more of the suspect list...

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Yeah, actually I'm planning on editing the stuff that I wrote above, to consider the people which I have previously put as having "not enough information on" or something like that, by searching the entire wheel of time text to see if their name is mentioned more...

 

I'm planning on considering all channelers in the Tower vicinity (yes, I am going through every listed Aes Sedai), and maybe eventually all non-channelling servants in a separate piece.

 

I would've completed the entire work, except I'll be working on it using two separate computers and posting what I have is an easy way to trasmit it from one computer to the next.

[Majsju]

When it comes to Danelle, it is important to also mention that she was overseeing the library reconstruction, ie responsible for 2-300 of the "masons" who tried to seize the Tower immidiatly after Siuans deposal. Danelle is also one of the sitters who deposed Siuan and raised Elaida instead, and Siuan notices that when the group enters her study, Danelles eyes are not dreamy at all, and she actually smirks at Siuan.

 

So Danelle is not only involved in deposing Siuan, she is also involved in setting up the fighting that assured the Tower would split.

[wconn1979]

When it comes to Danelle, it is important to also mention that she was overseeing the library reconstruction, ie responsible for 2-300 of the "masons" who tried to seize the Tower immidiatly after Siuans deposal. Danelle is also one of the sitters who deposed Siuan and raised Elaida instead, and Siuan notices that when the group enters her study, Danelles eyes are not dreamy at all, and she actually smirks at Siuan.

 

So Danelle is not only involved in deposing Siuan, she is also involved in setting up the fighting that assured the Tower would split.

 

Nice catch there.

[DemandredFO]

Ealdur Tinuviel: how far have you read, because Cariana is dead as well as Asne I think.  Also Chesmal is not with the rebels unless I'm forgetting something.

[Snowy Dawn]

Also Chesmal is not with the rebels unless I'm forgetting something.

 

Chesmal was in Caemlyn and is now more specifically shielded and in a cell in the basement of the palace. Before that she was in Ghealdan with the Spider, and the other surviving members of Liadrin's thirteen.

 

The only other candidate who seemed at all plausible among the Tower AS would be Norine of the White. She, like Danelle would be someone that has few friends and is therefore someone whom Mesaana could have replaced with herself. Whoever she is masquerading as would have a history with the Ajah, which would be difficult to fake even by the systematic use of compulsion. So we have to assume that the sister in question would be one who both looked somewhat like Mesaana and who she could remove and replace without arousing suspicion. Mesaana has a similar problem to that of Halima/Aran'gar with the additional difficulty of partially concealing her strength in the power.

 

Hm... That last does suggest the strategy of masquerading as tower staff rather than Aes Sedai and simply completely masking the ability to channel. The question, tho', would be what she would be doing in silks if so.

[Luckers]

When it comes to Danelle, it is important to also mention that she was overseeing the library reconstruction, ie responsible for 2-300 of the "masons" who tried to seize the Tower immidiatly after Siuans deposal. Danelle is also one of the sitters who deposed Siuan and raised Elaida instead, and Siuan notices that when the group enters her study, Danelles eyes are not dreamy at all, and she actually smirks at Siuan.

 

So Danelle is not only involved in deposing Siuan, she is also involved in setting up the fighting that assured the Tower would split.

 

Indeed, and more siginificantly those 'masons' are the first cited source of violence. Gawyn recites the events in the Tower--Siuan gets seized, and fighting broke out with the 'masons'. So Danelle was not only involved in setting up the fighting, she is directly responsible for it escalating to begin with.

 

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Ealdur Tinuviel: how far have you read, because Cariana is dead as well as Asne I think.  Also Chesmal is not with the rebels unless I'm forgetting something.

 

I've read all the way through. It's been a while since the last re-read, however, so I was going from memory and naturally I missed some things. But, as I said, I will revisit what I've written.

 

Also Chesmal is not with the rebels unless I'm forgetting something.

 

Chesmal was in Caemlyn and is now more specifically shielded and in a cell in the basement of the palace. Before that she was in Ghealdan with the Spider, and the other surviving members of Liadrin's thirteen.

 

 

I'm aware of that. How I managed to put her down as a Rebel is beyond me.

[Snowy Dawn]

``and Siuan notices that when the group enters her study, Danelles eyes are not dreamy at all, and she actually smirks at Siuan.''

 

In the description of Saine Tarasind (aka Mesaana) in the BWB (Ch. 6 on the ``The Female Forsaken and the Darkfriends'', page 67), it said that she was ``often taken for dreamy because of her introspection''. In the passage, Siuan also refers to Danelle as a ``young Brown sister'' meaning that she would not yet have the ageless appearance, and Mesaana, of course, would also not have that, which would make Danelle a feasible choice for Mesaana to have replaced. Further, Danelle is, in the passage from <i>The Shadow Rising</i> said to have ``big blue eyes'', and later on in <i>Knife of Dreams</i>, Aran'gar observes of Mesaana, ``Mesaana's big blue eyes narrowed. They were her best feature, yet only ordinary when she frowned.'' (<i>Knife of Dreams</i>, ``At the Gardens'', bottom of page 145, the hardcover edition.) Not a lot to go on, but some further bits to add to the case for the identification. Still, somebody must have known Danelle as a Novice and Accepted and/or have been responsible for guiding her into the Brown: how could they be fooled? Mesaana could not have <i>created</i> Danelle could she? Some in the Brown Ajah would have known that they had no such sister, surely.

 

[Vemynal]

compulsion?

 

 

[Snowy Dawn]

compulsion?

 

On the whole bloody Brown Ajah in the Tower?! That would have to be upwards of 100 Aes Sedai, yes? And, it would seem likely, compulsion on other Sisters as well. The only possibility that I can see that might work would be if Graendal had done it: surely she is the only one of the Forsaken who would have the necessary skill at compulsion to pull this off. See the description of Graendal's abilities with Compulsion in <i>The Lord of Chaos</i>, Ch. 6, ``Threads Woven of Shadow'', pp 173--174. Yet, later in that same passage (page 183) Graendal thinks to herself, ``How long had Mesaana been tucked away inside the White Tower?'': so clearly she had nothing to do with Mesaana's disguise.

[Majsju]

Siuan also refers to Danelle as a ``young Brown sister'' meaning that she would not yet have the ageless appearance, and Mesaana, of course, would also not have that, which would make Danelle a feasible choice for Mesaana to have replaced.

 

Actually, it would make sense for Mesaana to choose someone who did have the ageless look, since that would be easier to copy with Mask of Mirrors than a "real" face. Though in Danelles case, Siuans comment about her being young should not be taken as Danelle being so young she has not yet acquired the ageless look. After all, she is a sitter before the funny business of picking too young sitters start, and she is considered mature enough to be in charge of the reconstruction of the library.

 

compulsion?

 

Compelling Danelle herself, rather. Think about when Halima shows up in Salidar, telling Delana how she knows more about Cabriana Mecandes life than Cabriana herself, and all thanks to Semirhages "sessions" with Cabriana. Granted, Semirhage would have used different methods than Compulsion, but it does show what the Forsaken are capable of when it comes to gathering info about a person.

[Hybrid]

Additionally, my best guess is that the Shadowspawn idea came from Osan'gar.  He was the last one known to be in contact with Kisman, Rochaid, etal.  The idea for them to lure Rand to Far Madding probably came from him.  All sub rosa like all the other unsanctioned plots to avoid having to face Rand while he was using the keys that were underway at the same time.

 

Once Aginor got himself killed yet again, Demandred, who was in-on that plot, stepped in and gave the final orders sending the Shadowspawn to the Manor.

 

So, to correct what I initially said, Osan'gar was the one posing as Sam.  Demandred was the one who picked up the gauntlet after Osan'gar died.

 

Sorry to bring this all the way up from page 9 (and the off-topic section), but Rand was not lured to Far Madding.  He did the luring.  Somewhere in WH, he thinks about the random hints he dropped in the various locations he visited.  Plus, he goes to Far Madding to even the playing field.  He's been having more and more issues with his channeling dizziness and he's up against four powerful Asha'man.  What to do?  Nullify their advantage by going where they can't channel.  Plus, Rand is pretty much a blademaster, and Taim's students seem to share his disdain of swords.  I hope I'm not repeating what someone else said.

[trakand_01]

This may have been mentioned in the hundreds of pages before this, but I havent had time to read more than the last few pages.

 

I just wanted to share something i discovered the other night whilst reading. I read the bit where Alviarin was grovelling to Mesaana, and SH came and ball-gagged the Forsaken.

 

Mesaana reveals her proxy to Alviarin, and Alviarin is confused. She recognises the woman, but can't place her. She says she appears to be a woman short of her middle years, with dark hair to her shoulders (I havent got the book with me so this is from memory, apologies if this is wrong).

 

Mesaana is ALSO wearing GREEN with bronze embroidery around the hem and NOT bronze silks as I had previously thought.

 

Alviarin also says a little earlier that she had always known that Mesaana was 'walking the halls as a sister', which seems to rule out Mesaana being a servant etc.

 

Mesaana said she would have to now kill her proxy as Alviarin had seen her... Do any green or brown sisters die shortly after this event?