Potential fix for the overpowered Moiraine issue:

[Shawlee]

Prediction: The showrunners will reveal Moiraine already had her angreal. And whatever she is doing can be easily explained. Honestly it would make sense for this version to have the angreal. I hope they address this. 

 

Is it a cop out? I don't know, but for real, they need to explain Moiraine's ability. And bring that storyline from book 13.

 

They need to establish she IS NOT as strong as the girls (Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha) let alone Nynaeve! They need to make it clear because the audiences are not aware of it at all.

[Finnssss22]

You realise she had an angreal in season 1 and as far as we know she never gave it up or lost it.

[Shawlee]

@finnsss22 see I don't even remember! Which episode 🤔?

 

I need to rewatch season one. Damn, I didn't realize it was that unremarkable! I can remember adley had thick eyebrows and hopwil had a big nose, but i can't remember Moiraine using an angreal on a visual media?

 

Light help you,  Rafe Judkins.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Shawlee

[Finnssss22]

2 hours ago, Shawlee said:

@finnsss22 see I don't even remember! Which episode 🤔? I need to rewatch season one. Damn, I didn't realize it was that unremarkable! I can remember adley had thick eyebrows and hopwil had a big nose, but i can't remember Moiraine using an angreal on a visual media? Light help you,  Rafe Judkins.

 

She had it right off the bat and was using it to defend the Two Rivers.

[Samt]

Is it an "overpowered Moiraine problem" or just a "power levels are not internally consistent or cared about at all" problem?

[Elgee]

LoL ... you're not the only one who didn't remember, @Shawlee!

Thanks for reminding us, @Finnssss22 😀

 

So the T'A will explain the overpowered Moiraine, but what will explain the "apparently not bound by the 3 Oaths and can therefore murder people at will" Moiraine?

[nsmallw]

9 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

She had it right off the bat and was using it to defend the Two Rivers.

Actually your confusing things. The sa'angreal that was shown in season one episode one was in the possession of Moriaine BUT could only be used by a Male channeller.

 

In episode eight of season one, she gives it to Rand, and he uses it in the  "battle" with Ishamael. 

 

He should still have it so his lack of ability to prevent being shielded is even more odd if he had a sa'angreal that "thousands of male channelers had poured their power in" .

 

However, its never shown or mentioned that she had one for personal use IN THE SHOW, the books yes but NOT the tv show. Hope this helps clarify things. 

[fra85uk]

24 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

In episode eight of season one, she gives it to Rand, and he uses it in the  "battle" with Ishamael. 

 

He should still have it so his lack of ability to prevent being shielded is even more odd if he had a sa'angreal that "thousands of male channelers had poured their power in" .

 

 

Rand forgot the PIN code or it ran out of battery.

[Shawlee]

3 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

Actually your confusing things. The sa'angreal that was shown in season one episode one was in the possession of Moriaine BUT could only be used by a Male channeller.

 

In episode eight of season one, she gives it to Rand, and he uses it in the  "battle" with Ishamael. 

 

He should still have it so his lack of ability to prevent being shielded is even more odd if he had a sa'angreal that "thousands of male channelers had poured their power in" .

 

However, its never shown or mentioned that she had one for personal use IN THE SHOW, the books yes but NOT the tv show. Hope this helps clarify things. 

Thank you so much for clarifying it. I really thought i was losing my mind. I remember her giving him the "fat man angreal" or whatever the equivalent of it in the show. At this point in the story she should have the "Robed woman angreal" which she used in two rivers fight on winternight. But the show didn't make it clear as far as I know. Please tell me if I am wrong?

 

The thing is She CAN be an overpowered channeler with the robed women, or her "ivory bracelet" angreal. The strength of the latter almost equals an sa'angreal. 

 

Moiraine's strength in power equals to Siuan, Elida, and I think lelaine and romanda. Even Cadsuane is not on their level without her Shrike. And we know the shrike is not very powerful but it lets Cadsuane face some male channelers on equal footing. 

 

That was what I wanted to bring forth in my speculation. Giving the showrunners a loophole they can exploit, that can make Moiraine look a little less jarring on screen.

 

Also to distinguish the new generation of girls (our girls)

 

: Egwene_Elayne_Aviendha

 

Because Moiraine can be at their level with an angreal, however if they were on equal footing "our girls" will wipe the floor with Moiraine.

 

Not even gonna mention Nynaeve without her block. It would not be fair to put her against any of the above mentioned girls. 

 

 

[Elgee]

12 minutes ago, Shawlee said:

Moiraine's strength in power equals to Siuan, Elida, and I think lelaine and romanda. Even Cadsuane is not on their level without her Shrike. And we know the shrike is not very powerful but it lets Cadsuane face some male channelers on equal footing. 

 

If you mean Cadsuane is not on the level of the Wondergirls, that is correct.

If you mean on a level with Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida etc, then not correct.

Cadsuane is among the strongest Aes Sedai living in the third era, and prior to the beginning of the series, hers is the highest strength level of any Aes Sedai for many hundreds of years.

All living Aes Sedai (excluding Wondergirls) defer to her because of her strength.

[SinisterDeath]

https://www.tor.com/2015/10/27/the-wheel-of-time-companion-strength-chart-of-major-channelers/

Technically, The only wonder girl she isn't stronger then is Nynaeve.

There's some discrepancy between what the books say about her power level and the wonder girls and what RJ's notes state... And his notes don't state that her power level is with any additive support (sa'angrael/wells)

[Shawlee]

22 minutes ago, Elgee said:

 

If you mean Cadsuane is not on the level of the Wondergirls, that is correct.

If you mean on a level with Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida etc, then not correct.

Cadsuane is among the strongest Aes Sedai living in the third era, and prior to the beginning of the series, hers is the highest strength level of any Aes Sedai for many hundreds of years.

All living Aes Sedai (excluding Wondergirls) defer to her because of her strength.

You do realize why though? It is because of her "well" and the shrike. 

 

And the fact that Cadsuane is a "strong" women in the sense of being equal to Sorelia in strength of character. And also because her of Age. Cadsuane pretends to be very strong, and no one contradicts her, everyone who knew her when she was younger is dead.

 

She started collecting those ornaments right after she gained shawl "at the black hills" or at least that was hinted at one of those rare Cadsune POVs. 

 

The aes sedais didn't even know what a Well was until "lews therin rand" pointed it out - it is a "paralis net". Or am i remembering that wrong? So it is safe to presume they thought she was very strong but infact she isn't without her ornaments?

Edited October 26, 2023 by Shawlee

[Elgee]

5 minutes ago, Shawlee said:

The aes sedais didn't even know what a Well was until "lews therin rand" pointed it out - it is a "paralis net". Or am i remembering that wrong? So it is safe to presume they thought she was very strong but infact she isn't without her ornaments?

 

No they don't work that way. Other chanelers would feel her real strength she is capable of herself, whether or not she's channeling or even embracing the source. I can't think where to find it now, but there's a quote from Graendal along the lines of "people who knew her strength would be surprised by the extra bit she could pull through the ring on her little finger".

[Shawlee]

@Elgee

 

You are right, the whole time i was writing this speculation i kept thinking about the "thin gold ring".

 

The things is I always interpreted that Cadsuane is like Sorilia (not in power) and I really was hoping the aes sedais, unknowingly doing something that I absolutely love about the wise ones. How women are treated( and revered) based on their merit (and strength 💪 of character) and not on their "strength in power". Ah well, it can still be my headcanon. 🫠

 

Also, thank you so much for taking your time and indulging me and my speculation. This has been great! ❤️

Edited October 26, 2023 by Shawlee

[Elgee]

The pleasure is all mine, Shawlee! I love debating these things 🙂

I've read the earlier books over 30 times, so you could say I'm a bit obsessed .... LOL

[Shawlee]

2 hours ago, Elgee said:

 

No they don't work that way. Other chanelers would feel her real strength she is capable of herself, whether or not she's channeling or even embracing the source. I can't think where to find it now, but there's a quote from Graendal along the lines of "people who knew her strength would be surprised by the extra bit she could pull through the ring on her little finger".

Same my friend- up to lord of chaos:: I've read them how many times, I've lost count. Crown to Knife maybe half of that count. 🤔 

 

But honestly never even looked for a community to join, been obsessing over it just my myself for YEARS, until yesterday. Don't know what made me join (maybe the TV show, oh i wonder why?). But I am glad I did, as i am absolutely loving the discussions. 

[Elgee]

I also had read the books for years, before venturing online one day to find out when the next book would be published. In doing so, I landed up at Dragonmount. I didn't even know places like this existed! I ghosted on here for almost a year before eventually making an account in 2006. First I was just on here, where the books are discussed, but then I saw things called Orgs (now Social Groups) and Role Playing. I investigated, and then joined the White Tower as a novice. Now I'm Amyrlin, for my sins ... hehehe

[Shawlee]

I don't even know where to start, tbh. I have never role played.

 

For now I am just here to talk, and listen to people talk - about my most favorite story of all time. Robert rewrote my brain basically, and how I think both as a reader, and writer. His story made me grow as a person.

 

But, I am so intrigued by your experience, thank you for sharing!  ❤️

[SinisterDeath]

8 minutes ago, Shawlee said:

I don't even know where to start, tbh. I have never role played.

 

For now I am just here to talk, and listen to people talk - about my most favorite story of all time. Robert rewrote my brain basically, and how I think both as a reader, and writer. His story made me grow as a person.

 

But, I am so intrigued by your experience, thank you for sharing!  ❤️

There's two areas. The Community Organizations (Orgs) - which could best be described as Light RP. (If you've ever been on Twitter.... Think Twitter of Time before Twitter of Time) 

Over in the White Tower you join the White Tower.
Over in Shayol Ghul you stab people.

I think the Black Tower blows stuff up.

Either way, the various Orgs generally have a variety monthly activities and forum games for people to participate in.

Speaking of Forum Games, Community Events and Community Games is an area where those Orgs sometimes showcase their events or Games for the rest of the community to join in.

Then you have Roleplay. Which is actual Roleplay. Like D&D without the dice. Creative writing.

@Elgee how did I do? lol

[Finnssss22]

From what I understand the companion was based on RJ's original notes and he changed many power levels in the end. Cads was originally stronger than Egwene and Elayne but below Nynaeve. She ended up about the same level as Nicola which is above Moiraine and Siuan but below Egwene, Elayne and Avi.

However, Cads has A LOT of toys that I don't think we even found out what half of them do.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

14 hours ago, nsmallw said:

He should still have it so his lack of ability to prevent being shielded is even more odd if he had a sa'angreal that "thousands of male channelers had poured their power in" .

Even if he still had it it would not be relevant (if book lore applies) - an angreal only helps prevent being shielded if you are already holding the source extra strongly through it when the shielding person/group strikes (and again if book lore were followed multiple independent shields would be no use there, it would need a single linked shield to overcome someone already holding the source with an angreal).  Once shielded the possession of an angreal strength is not part of the equation as to whether the shield holds since the shielded person cannot reach out through it, they can only push against the shield.

[Elgee]

@SinisterDeath You did very well! 😁

[king of nowhere]

Why is moiraine supposedly overpowered? All she did was sinking a ship with fire. After channeling minutes to gather the power. Doesn't seem such powerful stuff.

Aldo, power levels are kinda inconsistent anyway

[Shawlee]

On 10/27/2023 at 9:49 AM, king of nowhere said:

All she did was sinking a ship with fire.

 

 

At that distance? Also destroying multiple ships, and she made the Seanchen run? Not Rand Al'Thor ? Or the heroes of the horn? Really? 

[king of nowhere]

8 hours ago, Shawlee said:

 

 

At that distance? Also destroying multiple ships, and she made the Seanchen run? Not Rand Al'Thor ? Or the heroes of the horn? Really? 

Creating an explosion big enough to open a hole in a ship doesn't take much. Channelers regularly blow up things bigger than a plank of wood. 

My main objection to that scene is that moiraine was not in danger from the ship and should not have been able of using the power as a weapon, at all.

My second main objection is that the damane on board should have seen the flow of incoming fire and stopped it.

But as far as having the power to blow some holes in wooden ships? No issues there.

 

Also consider, in the book egwene - which was not stronger than moiraine at that point - was asked to blow up a tree at distance. Blowing up a whole tree is harder than punching through a single plank