Brandon Sanderson S2 Finale Reaction Video

[Mailman]

1 minute ago, Scarloc99 said:

I am aware of that yes, but the writing of the whole scene is still really artificially done, he relies on the dropping of the spike triggering that moment, Androl had no idea the spike was going to be removed. There are a few moments in the books where BS relies on artifically generating tension through a series of very unlikely events. 

Not really Perrin was scouting the black tower because they suspected that a trap was being placed there. You could make the same exact argument for Nynaeve saving Rand from Rahvin.

[notpropaganda73]

19 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

The person that did most of the editing was Jordan's wife. So..

 

So what? 

[notpropaganda73]

18 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think it possible that "they" (whoever that might be) did not want the series to get the publicity about having a gendered magic source before it was relevant to the story, or perhaps I should say, could not be avoided. So the publicity was about less controversial or potentially politically sensitive issues. Because it is certainly true that there is no reason at all to not have had one of Moiraine's saying about cats and dogs, or fish and birds or whatever, as that would not even require a gendered source, but simply different methods, though obviously still gendered. But still easy to understand.

 

It does come across as a bit clumsy, especially as it then makes up part of the surprising Moiraine is shielded story line.

 

I think this is definitely part of the conversation but is just sad to me. I think there is so much potential in the gendered magic system for a TV show and modern audience. I've no doubt there are studio execs looking to avoid attracting too much noise from that sphere.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by notpropaganda73

[SinisterDeath]

15 hours ago, Yamezt said:

Though, power to RJ for reminding dudes their leg days.

Ya know, there's body builders out there that just love being reminded about their chicken legs... and I love the idea that RJ was poking fun at them.

[SinisterDeath]

9 hours ago, Mailman said:

Slightly off topic and contains sexual descriptions but one of the weirdest sexual literary scenes I have ever seen. Always makes me laugh.

Again language warning before opening.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

What in the Stephen King did I just read?

[Mailman]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

What in the Stephen King did I just read?

I have no idea what its from I found just that passage reposted on a discord thread I think a few years ago.

[VooDooNut]

4 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

My big issue with Androl is how artificial his arc is, it just jars so much with the rest of the writing in the entire series. In particular, Brandon Sandersons need to create artificial tension around the dream spike, Perrin "suddenly closing it", it is just such bad writing that it sticks out a mile compared to the rest of the series. At no point did RJ need to create artificial tension in this way, the way he then also uses Androl as a get out of jail free card for other key moments.

As an aside, I also want to say please watch the words you use, the word Spastic is horrifically insulting to people, it is the reason why a charity changed its name in 1994, I have a friend who if they had read that would have been triggered because of childhood bullying. I get it is a word in the english language but it has conetations that go far beyond its actual meaning. 

Thank you for informing me. I hope it’s clear I didn’t use that word to intentionally hurt anyone. I picked it for the mouth-feel. That being said, “fervent” would be a better choice in this context. 

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, Mailman said:

Not everything needs to be updated or changed to fit modern values. If the content fits the story then allow it too.

From Book to Film, things do in fact get updated to fit modern values or sensibilities all the time, and is often needed, to be marketable.

Updating a book to fit modern values and sensibilities is an entirely different thing. That's more of a thought experiment.

If RJ had written WoT in 2000 instead of 1990, would the gender dynamics have changed? Would gay people be more visible? 

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

Not really Perrin was scouting the black tower because they suspected that a trap was being placed there. You could make the same exact argument for Nynaeve saving Rand from Rahvin.

The difference is that Nynaeves scene made sense, Perrin is artificially kept by BS from goig to the black tower, the writing of that whole scene is just so clunky that there is no real tension, no real feeling of excitement or relief that Androl gets free, it is all so telegraphed, but also, BS uses a Dream spike twice, very close to each other, in exactly the same way, Perrin, by sheer chance, saves Egwene with it in Tar Valon, and then, again by chance, he saves the black tower, he doesn't turn it off knowing people are trapped, or that it is stopping them escaping, he just turns it off and jumps away because he assumes Slayer will be there to attack him. If perrin had known Slayer would not be there he would not of gone. It all feels so, all I can say is bad, in terms of the writing. I don't know why, it just does. 

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

Look I don't know the book starts in a conservative rural town in a feudal/agrarian world. Does that really need to be updated for modern audiences. It fits with the World that exists in the books and it's not like we don't get more cosmopolitan settings continuing on in the series. Did we really need Rand and Eggy to have sex in the common room of her parents Inn.

 

Not everything needs to be updated or changed to fit modern values. If the content fits the story then allow it too.

I mean I know people who grew up in farming communities, they were at it from the age of 14, as one friend of mine said, you see all that sex happening on the farm all the time and as teenagers you meet up at get togethers and all partner up and just have lots of fun. So from the experience I have 2nd hand knowledge of it all Emonds Field always felt far to sacharine sweet. 

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 10/13/2023 at 5:41 AM, fra85uk said:

 

 

Credit where it is due: ofc the admins of this forum are supporting the show (for many reasons) but still they give room for opposing reasonable opinions.

 

Very much give props to the admins here.  They allow people to express their opinions which is something WOTShow does not do.  I remember seeing a post where someone said can we at least talk about the poor writing quality?  That was coming from somebody where the rest of the post was full of glowing comments on the show.

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 10/13/2023 at 2:47 AM, ilovezam said:

This was a very interesting watch, I'm surprised Sanderson was as overtly negative as he was with the writing and the themes.

I'm surprised he is as well since in general he seems to try and be very positive.  However his professional integrity was probably taking a hit as the writing on the show is very low quality.  He was most likely getting called out by his peers and friends so had to say something.  

 

Remember that Brandon was chosen to finish WoT partly because he was a well known super fan and and up and coming author at the time.  

[Guire]

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean I know people who grew up in farming communities, they were at it from the age of 14, as one friend of mine said, you see all that sex happening on the farm all the time and as teenagers you meet up at get togethers and all partner up and just have lots of fun. So from the experience I have 2nd hand knowledge of it all Emonds Field always felt far to sacharine sweet. 

I think Emonds Field was changed because current US politics defines rural small town as regressive and urban cosmopolitan as progressive.  Another reason is that in US many lgbtq people leave small towns to urban enclaves to a found family situation that is more supportive.  Problem with this in WoT is that Two Rivers is not just another small town like many show supporters want it to be.  It is also not the Shire.  Two Rivers is like the Waste for Aiel.  It creates a particular culture and set of circumstances that our main characters use as source of strength and develop past.  RJ og shows lots of shit little towns with seedy characters.  

 

Two Rivers was born from a major defeat of the dark one's forces.  Manatheran sacrificed itself to save the world. It left just a fragment of its people and none of its wealth and culture.  But it left this stubborness and pride baked into its children.  The old blood sings.  This sort of nationalism and pride of culture may not be popular to progressives and can be horribly manipulated for all kinds of evil.  It is a thing though and has giving many people resolve and comfort in the face of horror.

[fra85uk]

33 minutes ago, Guire said:

I think Emonds Field was changed because current US politics defines rural small town as regressive and urban cosmopolitan as progressive.  Another reason is that in US many lgbtq people leave small towns to urban enclaves to a found family situation that is more supportive.  Problem with this in WoT is that Two Rivers is not just another small town like many show supporters want it to be.  It is also not the Shire.  Two Rivers is like the Waste for Aiel.  It creates a particular culture and set of circumstances that our main characters use as source of strength and develop past.  RJ og shows lots of shit little towns with seedy characters.  

 

Two Rivers was born from a major defeat of the dark one's forces.  Manatheran sacrificed itself to save the world. It left just a fragment of its people and none of its wealth and culture.  But it left this stubborness and pride baked into its children.  The old blood sings.  This sort of nationalism and pride of culture may not be popular to progressives and can be horribly manipulated for all kinds of evil.  It is a thing though and has giving many people resolve and comfort in the face of horror.

 

I add to this very good post that making EF as cosmopolitan as the London subway deprives ) that story of a very nice (and progressive) arc (or at least imho weakens it):

when refugees come to EF, they do not only find shelter but EF goes from being a small rural town to a city with new activities, new customs, more florid commerce. In other words, a clear example of the wonders of a multicultural society in which the strengths of all individuals complement each other.

Edited October 19, 2023 by fra85uk

[SinisterDeath]

45 minutes ago, Guire said:

I think Emonds Field was changed because current US politics defines rural small town as regressive and urban cosmopolitan as progressive.  Another reason is that in US many lgbtq people leave small towns to urban enclaves to a found family situation that is more supportive.  Problem with this in WoT is that Two Rivers is not just another small town like many show supporters want it to be.  It is also not the Shire.  Two Rivers is like the Waste for Aiel.  It creates a particular culture and set of circumstances that our main characters use as source of strength and develop past.  RJ og shows lots of shit little towns with seedy characters.  

 

Two Rivers was born from a major defeat of the dark one's forces.  Manatheran sacrificed itself to save the world. It left just a fragment of its people and none of its wealth and culture.  But it left this stubborness and pride baked into its children.  The old blood sings.  This sort of nationalism and pride of culture may not be popular to progressives and can be horribly manipulated for all kinds of evil.  It is a thing though and has giving many people resolve and comfort in the face of horror.

All of that can still be true, while allowing for people to still get frisky in a hay loft. They don't need to be mutually exclusive things.

The Two Rivers aren't exactly the "Amish" in Randland.
The Two Rivers culture doesn't value their women only if they they are pure (virgins) and the men for their piety and strong calves. That narrative is something that's often read into what makes the Two Rivers culture stand out, rather than what makes the two rivers stand out from the rest.


As I've said before.

Culturally, within the dynamics of the World RJ built, the Two Rivers is the one where Men and Women are more in "Balance" with each other then many of the others.
It isn't perfect... but
The Men on the Village Council feel that they are in power.
The Women's Circle know that they are in power.
That's more balanced then...

The women that lead Tar Valon.
Or the Woman lead nation of Andor.
Or the "Lords" lead the Nation of Tear.
Or the Female lead Seafolk...

The world's out of "Balance", all because the last dragon "Broke" the world...

The Two Rivers culture doesn't stand out because they exhibit modern day Christian values like not having sex until they're married. They stand out because they're one of the few cultures in Rand land where the two sexes are more in balance with each other. 

Albeit, they both think they're in charge of things and can't communicate worth a shit... which goes on to explain why we have 14 novels instead of 6.

[trw1972]

On 10/18/2023 at 1:36 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Jordan’s book was forward thinking for the day it was written in, it is also very dated today. I think people took that Rafe statement and ran with it in the wrong way. Any work adapted is changed to make it more palatable for the viewing audience, lord of the rings added in a whole plot line for a female character at the expense of a male one, added in more about romance because it was based off a book that regardless of its pedigree in some ways has not aged well. 
 

A friend read wheel of time for then first time recently after watching the tv show, she commented on how sexist Robert Jordan was in his writing and how glad she is the tv show is not like that. Some things age well, some things don’t and when something hasn’t aged well you change it. I have no doubt had RJ written WOT now then there would be a lot less of men are from mars women are from Venus writing in the relationships and he would have been emboldened to have been more open with the existence of same sex relationships in the world. He took the risks he could in the 90’s and he stuck on lane and played it safe where he felt he needed to. But he did take risks, risks that now days feel like they are behind the times we live in. 

 

I got a fantasy loving friend to watch the show and he went on to try the books.

He commented on how the series felt 'very 90's' as well.

 

Personally i have read the series lots of times, but not for a couple of years and my memory is not as good as it was (too much radiotherapy to the head!).

 

I do remember there was a general obsession with breasts and spanking and a very odd storyline with Tylin that did not work for me at all. But i still loved the overall story

 

I have just started a reread, and i am on the hunt for the horn (the great hunt), it will be interesting to see if these things bother me this time around.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by trw1972

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Andor has a totally traditional society, with serving girls being sexually assaulted while working routinely, for example. Andoran goodwives do not appear any different than anywhere else, in Caemlyn the inns are owned by men with female cooks, maids, and male bouncers and stablemen. But the High Seats of the Houses can be female, and only a female can be the Head of State.

 

Why does nearly everyone call it a matriarchal society?

 

And I don't buy the balance argument. The Two Rivers is not particularly toxic, and as traditional societies women have representation and agency through the Women's Circle, I don't think balanced is really the right word. The only society that is balanced that I can see is the Seanchan where people appear to levitate to professions that they want and are good at and rise according to their ability (if they are not property, at least). Though we don't really see the settlers who actually work the soil in much detail. 

 

I think RJ really made an attempt to have equal societies, or at least more equal than our historical societies, but people take often very different views of what he created. Is there not a quote about him writing equal societies and then his readers asking why did make them matriarchal? 

[SinisterDeath]

21 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Andor has a totally traditional society, with serving girls being sexually assaulted while working routinely, for example. Andoran goodwives do not appear any different than anywhere else, in Caemlyn the inns are owned by men with female cooks, maids, and male bouncers and stablemen. But the High Seats of the Houses can be female, and only a female can be the Head of State.

 

Why does nearly everyone call it a matriarchal society?

Because the Head of State, and the Head of a lot of the Nobles tend to be Female?
 

We don't know that every Inn in Andor is owned by a Man. We only have some examples of that. (Rand and Mat's travels from Two Rivers to Caemlyn)
We don't know that every business, or every farm in all of Andor is owned by a Man.
We don't even know  if it's a patriarchal society outside of the royal houses.
RJ's world building isn't that complete on matters like this, and he'd have likely told us to go inflate some animals had we asked in-depth questions like this in person.

We can make assumptions about who runs the household, and where the power dynamics come in. Odds are the answer is... It's complex.

 

Quote

And I don't buy the balance argument. The Two Rivers is not particularly toxic,

Exactly. It's not particularly toxic. Because it's relatively balanced.

 

Quote

And as traditional societies women have representation and agency through the Women's Circle,

In western societies, those would have been called a Witches Coven and they would have ben burned at the Stake.

 

Quote

I don't think balanced is really the right word. 

I believe it is. Because What's the main theme in the novels regarding the issue with Saidin and Saidar?

Is it balanced that women and men cannot work together at the beginning of the novels?

Is it not a strong theme through out the novels that both genders need to come together to solve their problems? That both have to work together to... cleanse the taint? To seal the Dark One? 

 

Why shouldn't the literal "Dragon" come from a culture that is balanced along gender line, rather then a culture that views "women" as superior or "men" as superior?

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Rand recites the line Regarding the Women's Circle & the Village Council at least once or twice in the series...

 

22 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

The only society that is balanced that I can see is the Seanchan where people appear to levitate to professions that they want and are good at and rise according to their ability (if they are not property, at least). Though we don't really see the settlers who actually work the soil in much detail. 

I don't know if I'd call that balanced so much as I'd call that RJ's views/commentary on Egalitarian Marxism. (Think Starship Troopers)

 

24 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think RJ really made an attempt to have equal societies, or at least more equal than our historical societies, but people take often very different views of what he created. Is there not a quote about him writing equal societies and then his readers asking why did make them matriarchal? 

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=matriarchal

Probably referring to this.

 

As he said. It doesn't all work perfectly. People have bellybuttons. As you mentioned above, tavern maids still get sexually assaulted even in Andor despite it being a possible "Matriarchal" society. 

 

But that's just the thing. Even if the power of the land is Matriarchal, that doesn't mean power dynamics downstream are Matriarchal.

Supposedly RJ grew up in a Matriarchal household. That doesn't mean the South is a Matriarchal society.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

We don't know that every Inn in Andor is owned by a Man. We only have some examples of that. (Rand and Mat's travels from Two Rivers to Caemlyn)
We don't know that every business, or every farm in all of Andor is owned by a Man.
We don't even know  if it's a patriarchal society outside of the royal houses.
RJ's world building isn't that complete on matters like this, and he'd have likely told us to go inflate some animals had we asked in-depth questions like this in person.

Yes, but all the examples we see are entirely traditional gender roles. I don't see that it makes sense to assume that this is not norm. Having a Queen does not give women power, it gives one woman power. And men are not excluded from having political power. So as a society, the head of state does not make a difference if she is the exception that proves the rule.

9 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

In western societies, those would have been called a Witches Coven and they would have ben burned at the Stake.

Yeah, my bad, I missed a few crucial words out there, I meant as an improvement over traditional societies they have the Circle.

 

But it is still not balanced. Perhaps this is the theme, but it you can also see that the Council and the Circle are in conflict, are both openly disparaging of each other, both are full of confidence of their own superiority. Saidin and Saidar are in conflict, and we don't really see women and men working together, we see them being shackled together and forced to give control to one gender, following strict rules rising from the make up of the circle. With the interesting exception being the double bonding that I have seen many pin fully on BS and reject as a non-RJ concept.

[Yamezt]

56 minutes ago, trw1972 said:

a very odd storyline with Tylin that did not work for me at all.

Yea I really disliked that too. IMO that was rape. From memory it was written as if it were a humorous scene - cringey. Something I hope they cut out if the TV series if the seasons makes it that far. 

[fra85uk]

I always thought (but probably translation could change meaning of some words) that having seen Tylin-Mat relationship from Mat (usually comically unreasonable), it was him being the reluctant lover (instead of the typical reluctant hero). Reread recently and never saw it this way.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

19 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

Yea I really disliked that too. IMO that was rape. From memory it was written as if it were a humorous scene - cringey. Something I hope they cut out if the TV series if the seasons makes it that far. 

It is a tricky and I am not sure if RJ really got the tone that he wanted. But it was not non-consensual, Mat was just shocked that she was doing the chasing. He would have been chasing her if she were not the Queen. He was willing but was just getting a taste of his medicine in how he would have chased a girl. Or at least I think that this how it was meant. That Mat was willing, but that Tylin treated his protests about her being a Queen and such as him playing hard to get.

 

But yes, when in Mat's POV I think it does dwell a bit too much on how he did not want it to happen, which does make it come across as assault, where I think it is more meant to be his outrage at her behaviour. And I think RJ did expect the juxtaposition of the gender roles to be funny.

 

Edit: like I think that Mat should have thought her behaviour was ok if he had done it to her, and it was only the role reversal that bothered him. But it did come across as being completely non-consensual.

Edited October 19, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[trw1972]

10 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

Yea I really disliked that too. IMO that was rape. From memory it was written as if it were a humorous scene - cringey. Something I hope they cut out if the TV series if the seasons makes it that far. 

 

That is how i remember it as well, heck she restricts his food, puts a knife to his throat, and he tried to lock his door from what i remember? But it was all written in a sort of 'humorous' way and he ended up 'liking' his abuser at the end of it.

 

Maybe i am remembering it poorly, it has been a while.

 

 

[Yamezt]

10 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

the reluctant lover

 

5 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

But yes, when in Mat's POV I think it does dwell a bit too much on how he did not want it to happen, which does make it come across as assault, where I think it is more meant to be his outrage at her behaviour. And I think RJ did expect the juxtaposition of the gender roles to be funny.

 

I can understand he was trying to turn his the tables with gender roles, but unfortunately it didn't quite work for me the last I read. I feel it is also at the expense on the issue as to how men are rarely believed when they report rape, cuz what manly man would refuse sex from a beautiful lady - they should only be so pleased.

 

Also,  I would be quite happy for the removal of all torture and sexual assault in the TV series too on female darkfriends and forsaken when they fail/capture. I don't know if RJ was trying to evoke a sense of schadenfreude from the readers or something, but I found it uncomfortable. Sure, I realise the world is a horrible place - and he probably knows more than I do how awful the world is with his experience of war - but it is like female darkfriends and forsaken have things dialled up to 20 when karma strikes them while the men just die quickly after battle and sometimes rather unceremoniously 

[fra85uk]

2 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

 

 

 

Also,  I would be quite happy for the removal of all torture and sexual assault in the TV series too on female darkfriends and forsaken when they fail/capture. I don't know if RJ was trying to evoke a sense of schadenfreude from the readers or something, but I found it uncomfortable. Sure, I realise the world is a horrible place - and he probably knows more than I do how awful the world is with his experience of war - but it is like female darkfriends and forsaken have things dialled up to 20 when karma strikes them while the men just die quickly after battle and sometimes rather unceremoniously 

 

Again, I disagree with this interpretation. I don't think RJ wanted us to feel schadenfreude. I often felt bad for the bad guys. For example, it was quite delicate the way he handled Jaichim Carridin POVs during his fall and how he tought about his family. Furthermore, the same darkfriend was horribly tortured and his death was disgusting.