Brandon Sanderson S2 Finale Reaction Video

[DigificWriter]

As both a professional author and official Consulting Producer, Brandon has every right to be critical of aspects of the series' writing, but there is a distinct difference between being critical and being negative, and I don't see any negativity in the summaries of his comments that have been posted or alluded to here in this thread.

[Robbin Poh]

Brandon is certainly fit to criticize, but his opinion on what was done correctly or wrong is not necessarily true. Don't forget that Brandon himself assigned so many pages to Androl, and many character interactions took on a two dimensional cardboard tone.

So much focus spent on developing how to hack gateways, but what was the point? Just to insert a little action-adventure story arc for Androl and his Aes Sedai

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Robbin Poh said:

Brandon is certainly fit to criticize, but his opinion on what was done correctly or wrong is not necessarily true. Don't forget that Brandon himself assigned so many pages to Androl, and many character interactions took on a two dimensional cardboard tone.

So much focus spent on developing how to hack gateways, but what was the point? Just to insert a little action-adventure story arc for Androl and his Aes Sedai

The point to this was to give one of the most prolific fantasy authors in history the ability to exercise some creativity while writing 1600 pages or more of someone else's project. It was the "let me have something" point so he wasn't just transcribing notes, but actually writing.

 

I wasn't thrilled with the way the gateways were abused in the Last Battle, but they did help solve the problem of the Light being grossly outmanned by the Dark

[TheMountain]

On 10/15/2023 at 6:53 AM, DigificWriter said:

As both a professional author and official Consulting Producer, Brandon has every right to be critical of aspects of the series' writing, but there is a distinct difference between being critical and being negative, and I don't see any negativity in the summaries of his comments that have been posted or alluded to here in this thread.

The ChatGPT summary isn't bad, but the main problem is it is summarizing the comments of three people (Daniel, Matt, and Brandon) all at once in a dispassionate "scholarly" way. Brandon's comments definitely have more bite and bitter humor to them, and you can tell he is clearly disappointed and frustrated with certain decisions. That being said, it's true that he isn't straight up hating on the show, and he praises them in a few areas throughout and at the end.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, TheMountain said:

Brandon's comments definitely have more bite and bitter humor to them, and you can tell he is clearly disappointed and frustrated with certain decisions.

This is just kind of the way he talks though. I think it makes him seem more acerbic than he really means to be. 

[TheMountain]

28 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This is just kind of the way he talks though. I think it makes him seem more acerbic than he really means to be. 

Hard to say. He definitely didn't come across as rude to me, but definitely frustrated and baffled by certain writing choices at times. I think he can still appreciate the show overall while intensely disliking certain key parts of it.

[swollymammoth]

The gap between RJ and Brandon's abilities are writers is pretty vast, IMO... but it's the width of a paper when compared to the galaxy of difference between Rafe and Brandon or the Universe sized gulf between Rafe and RJ. 

 

For all his weaknesses as a writer (namely, bland and unevocative prose), Brandon excels at worldbuilding (albeit in a limited, TV-esque sort of way that falls well short of the meticulous realism RJ preferred), crafting character arcs, establishing consistent motivations, dripfeeding information to the audience, basic setup and payoff . . . e.g. just about EVERYTHING the show is bad at. 

[Rhaze]

12 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

The gap between RJ and Brandon's abilities are writers is pretty vast, IMO... but it's the width of a paper when compared to the galaxy of difference between Rafe and Brandon or the Universe sized gulf between Rafe and RJ. 

 

For all his weaknesses as a writer (namely, bland and unevocative prose), Brandon excels at worldbuilding (albeit in a limited, TV-esque sort of way that falls well short of the meticulous realism RJ preferred), crafting character arcs, establishing consistent motivations, dripfeeding information to the audience, basic setup and payoff . . . e.g. just about EVERYTHING the show is bad at. 

 I mean, yeah... you have a guy who studied physics, was a nuclear engineer, served 2 tours in vietnam where he was awarded medals for his actions who wrote the books, compared to a guy who was really just getting his toes wet in the industry, compared to a guy who did some editing on survivor who thinks he is a better writer than the 2 aforementioned.

[king of nowhere]

45 minutes ago, Rhaze said:

 compared to a guy who was really just getting his toes wet in the industry

that was a good description of sanderson 15 years ago, when he was hired to finish the wheel of time. now sanderson has 20 years of experience as a top fantasy writer.  which makes him even more qualified to give advice here.

especially since his main streenghts - worldbuilding, characters - can be transposed to television, while his one weakness - prose - is made irrelevant by the change in medium

[Mirefox]

The last couple posters have hit a big issue on the head - Sanderson’s strength is world building and that is by leaps and bounds the weakest part of this show.  His critiques on those issues are most valid.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Rhaze said:

who thinks he is a better writer than the 2 aforementioned.

What do you base this claim on? Do you have evidence to back this up beyond not liking the choices he’s made? 

[TheMountain]

15 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What do you base this claim on? Do you have evidence to back this up beyond not liking the choices he’s made? 

He's never said that in such explicit terms, obviously. However, we know the following about Rafe:

 

-he has said that he is writing the show the way he thinks the books would have been written by RJ today

-he knows Brandon disagrees with him on many issues, yet maintains his position

-for each change, he'll often say something to the effect of "this works better," "this is actually more true to the books," "we HAD to do it this way because this is much more impactful and better set-up," "you need X or Y for a good narrative," etc etc etc

-excerpt from an interview that WoTSeries did with Rafe: "Tidbit: apparently 70% of readers of all 14 books thought the show was as good or better than the books, he notes this is taken largely from non-online spaces."

 

I don't know if he thinks he is better than the other two... but, taken as a whole his comments seem to paint a picture of a person who thinks he can go head-to-head with two great fantasy authors, and that when it comes to what works for film at least, he knows better.

Edited October 16, 2023 by TheMountain

[Rhaze]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

that was a good description of sanderson 15 years ago, when he was hired to finish the wheel of time. now sanderson has 20 years of experience as a top fantasy writer.  which makes him even more qualified to give advice here.

especially since his main streenghts - worldbuilding, characters - can be transposed to television, while his one weakness - prose - is made irrelevant by the change in medium

 Yeah, to clarify I meant when he was writing the last 3 books, since that is the canon they will (wont) be basing the show.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

It is all very well everyone using their amazing insights to know who better writer is, who is the best script writer, who's ego thinks they are the best writer, but it still all comes across as ad hominem attacks on the showrunner. Which as someone was pointing out is exactly what was aimed at Mr Sanderson back when he was writing the last books.

 

There is no point discussing who should be writing the series, while being certain about the quality of said counter-factual series. It would be nice if people could keep to discussing the show as it is, without attacking the personalities involved and without constantly bringing up some alleged agenda.

[swollymammoth]

5 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

-excerpt from an interview that WoTSeries did with Rafe: "Tidbit: apparently 70% of readers of all 14 books thought the show was as good or better than the books, he notes this is taken largely from non-online spaces."

Lol did you see in the most recent AMA he did where someone asked him if the power was going to have the the male/female, saidin/saidar split like in the books and he was like (paraphrased), "Well, we've gotta dripfeed that information to the audience." Can[t give them everything all at once!" as if the split was some crazy deep lore that needs multiple seasons of buildup to establish. 

 

RJ established the split right up front because, obviously, it's an absolutely fundamental aspect of the story and world, but Rafe obviously thinks that he knows better. Clearly, it's much more important to establish that Warders and Aes Sedai have polyamourous sexual relationships than to clarify a fundamental detail of the WoT universe. 

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Lol did you see in the most recent AMA he did where someone asked him if the power was going to have the the male/female, saidin/saidar split like in the books and he was like (paraphrased), "Well, we've gotta dripfeed that information to the audience." Can[t give them everything all at once!" as if the split was some crazy deep lore that needs multiple seasons of buildup to establish. 

 

RJ established the split right up front because, obviously, it's an absolutely fundamental aspect of the story and world, but Rafe obviously thinks that he knows better. Clearly, it's much more important to establish that Warders and Aes Sedai have polyamourous sexual relationships than to clarify a fundamental detail of the WoT universe. 

The actual quote was:

“We are trying to explain the one power as it's emotionally relevant to the characters and go deeper visually simultaneous to that explanation. The two halves of the one power get more time the deeper the series goes.”
 

So not even close to the way you paraphrased it.

 

Weren’t you insisting after S1 that Rafe had abandoned the distinction between the halves entirely? 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[swollymammoth]

4 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It is all very well everyone using their amazing insights to know who better writer is, who is the best script writer, who's ego thinks they are the best writer, but it still all comes across as ad hominem attacks on the showrunner. Which as someone was pointing out is exactly what was aimed at Mr Sanderson back when he was writing the last books.

The fact that some people also complained about Sanderson's book doesn't: 

1. Make the degree and validity of those complaints equivalent

2. Mean that WoPrime and the Sanderson books are equivalent in quality

3. Make the show's changes/liberties anywhere near equivalent to the variations present in Sanderson's books which were informed by countless hours pouring over the novels, RJ's own notes on the story and world (which were millions of words long) and under the direct oversight of Harriet herself as well as RJ's personal assistants. As opposed to Rafe's changes which amount to, "Lol what if Perrin killed his wife. Also I'll give her the name of Perrin's first crush from the books. That's fidelity folks!" 

4. Invalidate criticism of Rafe's creative decisions

 

If Rafe wanted people to just focus on what his show "is," he should have either stuck more closely to the books (which would have resulted in less criticism, though the amount never would have been 0) or pitched Amazon on an original show. Comparison to the original is part of the deal when you make an adaptation. 

[Mirefox]

23 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It is all very well everyone using their amazing insights to know who better writer is, who is the best script writer, who's ego thinks they are the best writer, but it still all comes across as ad hominem attacks on the showrunner. Which as someone was pointing out is exactly what was aimed at Mr Sanderson back when he was writing the last books.

 

There is no point discussing who should be writing the series, while being certain about the quality of said counter-factual series. It would be nice if people could keep to discussing the show as it is, without attacking the personalities involved and without constantly bringing up some alleged agenda.

And it would be nice if if some of you would stop pretending like there is no agenda when the show runner has explicitly said there’s an agenda.  You can agree with it, move it, loathe it, embrace it, be blind to it, or whatever, but saying things like “alleged agenda” is either willful ignorance or gross sycophancy.

[swollymammoth]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

“We are trying to explain the one power as it's emotionally relevant to the characters and go deeper visually simultaneous to that explanation. The two halves of the one power get more time the deeper the series goes.”

This is exactly what I said it was. He's dripfeeding it out like it's deep lore when there have been all sorts of opportunities (Moiraine explaining the Power to Egwene in episode 2 and telling Rand she can't train him come immediately to mind) where the writers could have just said, "The One Power is two halves. Men use one half. Women used the other." Wham, bam, thank you ma'am. But no. 

 

Explaining the power as it's "emotionally relevant" is PR double-speak. It means literally nothing. The split has been relevant from the beginning, no matter what spin Rafe tries to put on it.

 

I'd love to see Rafe's remake of A New Hope where Obi Wan never explains the force to Luke because it's not "emotionally relevant" until Empire or something. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

The fact that some people also complained about Sanderson's book doesn't: 

1. Make the degree and validity of those complaints equivalent

2. Mean that WoPrime and the Sanderson books are equivalent in quality

3. Make the show's changes/liberties anywhere near equivalent to the variations present in Sanderson's books which were informed by countless hours pouring over the novels, RJ's own notes on the story and world (which were millions of words long) and under the direct oversight of Harriet herself as well as RJ's personal assistants. As opposed to Rafe's changes which amount to, "Lol what if Perrin killed his wife. Also I'll give her the name of Perrin's first crush from the books. That's fidelity folks!" 

4. Invalidate criticism of Rafe's creative decisions

 

If Rafe wanted people to just focus on what his show "is," he should have either stuck more closely to the books (which would have resulted in less criticism, though the amount never would have been 0) or pitched Amazon on an original show. Comparison to the original is part of the deal when you make an adaptation. 

There is zero reason assume that showrunner is not attempting to make the best adaptation that they can. That all they are doing is in good faith trying to make best TV show that they can.

 

And I am not claiming that creative decisions involved cannot be criticized or should not be. But to suggest that any changes were implemented because of "lol" by some drooling idiot who cares nothing for the books, or the story, or the fans, but thinks they can improve on the books by making something up on the spur of the moment, is blatantly false. As I have said before and I'll probably say again, even if you disagree with the creative changes that the show has made, that is no reason to be disrespectful and insulting to those who made the changes, or even are just the public face of those changes.

[Ralph]

5 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

And it would be nice if if some of you would stop pretending like there is no agenda when the show runner has explicitly said there’s an agenda.  You can agree with it, move it, loathe it, embrace it, be blind to it, or whatever, but saying things like “alleged agenda” is either willful ignorance or gross sycophancy.

except that he didn't 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

Explaining the power as it's "emotionally relevant" is PR double-speak. It means literally nothing.

No it isn’t. It means that the show is focusing on how the characters interact with the world rather than on lore dumps. 

The show is focusing on prioritizing character development over plot and lore. The theory behind this is that viewers get invested in characters and don’t care as much about the threat of the Dark One or the Last Battle or prophecies of the Dragon. 
 

The plot and lore are like the set of a stage play - something to use to advance the emotional development of the characters. 
 

8 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

This is exactly what I said it was.

Your “paraphrasing” wasn’t paraphrasing at all. It was interpreting what Rafe said through your own lens. Which is fine. But don’t call it paraphrasing. 

[Mirefox]

6 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

This is exactly what I said it was. He's dripfeeding it out like it's deep lore when there have been all sorts of opportunities (Moiraine explaining the Power to Egwene in episode 2 and telling Rand she can't train him come immediately to mind) where the writers could have just said, "The One Power is two halves. Men use one half. Women used the other." Wham, bam, thank you ma'am. But no. 

 

Explaining the power as it's "emotionally relevant" is PR double-speak. It means literally nothing. The split has been relevant from the beginning, no matter what spin Rafe tries to put on it.

 

I'd love to see Rafe's remake of A New Hope where Obi Wan never explains the force to Luke because it's not "emotionally relevant" until Empire or something. 

I 100% promise you there were doing everything they could not to have a gendered power in season 1.  It was so painfully obvious and that Moiraine talk with Rand is laughable in the mental acrobatics they were attempting.

[swollymammoth]

1 minute ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

There is zero reason assume that showrunner is not attempting to make the best adaptation that they can.

Rafe is definitely trying to make the best TV show that he can.  But he's definitely not trying to make the best adaptation he can. If you want to hear what it sounds like when a showrunner actually gives a crap about the source material and making a good and faithful adaptation, read literally anything that the One Piece showrunners have every said. The difference is stark and undeniable. Those guys care. Rafe is just making excuses. 

 

But all of this is pointless. You are right about that. The fact is that Rafe is not a good writer, and no amount of fidelity to the books was every going to make this show good so long as he was running the show. Perrin's wife is unforgiveable, and he stands by it to this day, unlike Sanderson who will freely admit the places where his WoT books fell short (Mat's character, timelines, his prose etc.)

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I'd love to see Rafe's remake of A New Hope where Obi Wan never explains the force to Luke because it's not "emotionally relevant" until Empire or something.

Obi Wan’s explanation of the force was perfectly timed in A New Hope precisely because it WAS emotionally relevant to Luke.