WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[Samt]

2 hours ago, Guire said:

Agaim I reiterate watching Lanfear, Egwene, and now Moghedian chew up scenes is amazing entertainment if you distract your brain slightly with cold beer and RJ approves levels of cleavage. Super high def TV also helps. Somehow this group of writers managed to make a show best viewed at a Hooters.

Exactly.  I'm not even saying this tongue in cheek.  The show is actually pretty good mindless entertainment.  It's like in the Expendables where we have an ensemble cast and we give everybody a cool fight scene.  The setup and stakes are not particularly important.  The bad guys don't have to make sense or even really feel coherent.  Shoulder firing a minigun is completely okay and the rule of cool dominates. And the fight scenes are kind of cool.  And when the mood strikes, I find this type of entertainment quite enjoyable.  

 

I always found the WoT book series to be much more cerebral.  Of course, books are naturally a little more cerebral by nature and it's not like the books are without oversights and plot inconsistencies.  But the show has really leaned into the idea that it's just a bit of mindless fun and the plot and lore aren't really important.  

Edited October 6, 2023 by Samt

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Sabio said:

It should have zero to do with making the dagger do totally opposite things when it hits someone. 

I concur. The dagger is a giant plot hole.

[Mirefox]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It didn't force anyone to do anything. What it did do was place the writers in the untenable position of having to rewrite three episodes of a TV show and remove one a main character who was a key element of those episodes. Since the bulk of the series was in the can and they were headed toward the release date, the writers cobbled some stuff together.

 

The final product was bad. We ended up with terrible plot holes. But that is the reason for those holes.

If that is the reason then it reeks of gross incompetence.  They had to cobble scenes together so they whipped up a scene really quick where characters are given lethal wounds from a lethal weapon to fill some story gaps?  
 

Don’t buy everything they feed you.  I’m sure COVID hurt production; I’m sure losing a main actor hurt production; those things didn’t force them to create nonsense.  They could have filmed the same scene with a regular dagger and kept themselves from the issue.  Someone chose to film it with the ruby dagger, someone green-lit it, someone edited it, and someone chose to release it.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Something she chose not to think about until the collar was in place.

Just like she just had to not think about hitting her with the pitcher, then hit her when she wasn't looking? You mean undoing the best section of the whole series?

 

You mean that?

 

You really mean that to defend this you would undo everything good about the show?

 

Or you could admit that you are wrong, and that it does not make sense.

 

Or sure keep arguing this, because it makes so much sense. Egwene just had to not think about getting free, while she was getting free. Not think about hurting Renna, while doing so. 

 

Just like the whole pitcher story, the best part of the series took such pains to teach us how the a'dam works.

 

How about you repeat that she just had to not think about again. That will surely circumvent all the lore in the show. 

 

While it may not have bothered you that they chose this route, that does not make it any less stupid or contrary to the lore of the book and the show. And no amount of assertions otherwise make it so, that is simply not how the a'dam works, in any universe or turning of the wheel.

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, Mirefox said:

If that is the reason then it reeks of gross incompetence.  They had to cobble scenes together so they whipped up a scene really quick where characters are given lethal wounds from a lethal weapon to fill some story gaps?  
 

Don’t buy everything they feed you.  I’m sure COVID hurt production; I’m sure losing a main actor hurt production; those things didn’t force them to create nonsense.  They could have filmed the same scene with a regular dagger and kept themselves from the issue.  Someone chose to film it with the ruby dagger, someone green-lit it, someone edited it, and someone chose to release it.

Yes. It was not part of the original script, but a byproduct of having to create a new script on short notice. The end product of that short notice change was poor. I'm not understanding what the argument is.

 

5 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Just like she just had to not think about hitting her with the pitcher, then hit her when she wasn't looking? You mean undoing the best section of the whole series?

 

You mean that?

 

You really mean that to defend this you would undo everything good about the show?

 

Or you could admit that you are wrong, and that it does not make sense.

 

Or sure keep arguing this, because it makes so much sense. Egwene just had to not think about getting free, while she was getting free. Not think about hurting Renna, while doing so. 

 

Just like the whole pitcher story, the best part of the series took such pains to teach us how the a'dam works.

 

How about you repeat that she just had to not think about again. That will surely circumvent all the lore in the show. 

 

While it may not have bothered you that they chose this route, that does not make it any less stupid or contrary to the lore of the book and the show. And no amount of assertions otherwise make it so, that is simply not how the a'dam works, in any universe or turning of the wheel.

Okay. I will stop arguing with you about it. My opinion is what it is. Yours is what it is. And no matter how much you try to tell me that this is an objective thing, I'm not going to concede that. I watched the scene, I have my opinions about why it worked for me. You have your opinions about why it didn't work for you.

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Okay. I will stop arguing with you about it. My opinion is what it is. Yours is what it is. And no matter how much you try to tell me that this is an objective thing, I'm not going to concede that. I watched the scene, I have my opinions about why it worked for me. You have your opinions about why it didn't work for you.

 

I accept your apology and admission of defeat 😁

[Sabio]

5 hours ago, Samt said:

Exactly.  I'm not even saying this tongue in cheek.  The show is actually pretty good mindless entertainment.  It's like in the Expendables where we have an ensemble cast and we give everybody a cool fight scene.  The setup and stakes are not particularly important.  The bad guys don't have to make sense or even really feel coherent.  Shoulder firing a minigun is completely okay and the rule of cool dominates. And the fight scenes are kind of cool.  And when the mood strikes, I find this type of entertainment quite enjoyable.  

 

I always found the WoT book series to be much more cerebral.  Of course, books are naturally a little more cerebral by nature and it's not like the books are without oversights and plot inconsistencies.  But the show has really leaned into the idea that it's just a bit of mindless fun and the plot and lore aren't really important.  

This is what frustrates me so much about the show.  They can have such a great scene such as Moghi and Lanfear, showing how dangerous Moghi is and showing the Forsaken don't like each other.  That makes you think wow this is good.  Then can totally botch stuff other stuff like Min being told what to do by Ishy? 

 

Rafe said the Ishy death was basically Ishy getting his wish to finally die.  He doesn't want to live so saw no reason to fight.  He succeeded in finally making LTT kill him. 

 

Still seemed like a very anti climatic, disappointing fight/ending.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

As to Egwene and the a’dam situation it really wan’t that bad. Look at it this way, what Egwene was and was not able to do was likely based largely on Renna’s desires and her beliefs about right and wrong. Renna certainly did not want to be bashed in the head with a water jug and probably believed that in general no one should be. She saw such as an act of violence and thus Egwene couldn’t do it.  Her beliefs about the a’dam were a bit different and more complex, she certainly did believe that collaring all mirath-damane was good and right and while she did not desire to be collared herself she did desire for all mirath-damane to be collared and she did not see such as an act of violence or harm. Egwene had figured out that Renna was mirath-damane and so in Renna’s own mind Egwene collaring a woman she knew to be mirath-damane was good and right and not an act of violence.  Certainly no restriction on a damane adhering to Seanchan belief and laws. 

[Maximillion]

Season 2 started pretty well, middle was quite good, ended really badly.

It felt rushed again - just like last season.

The 'battle' with the Sanchean was truly awful and the way they delivered the heroes of the horn was so feeble. 

Rand killing Ishmael the way he did, what was that about? Just strolls up to him and kills him? 

I am not sure they will get a season 4. Season 2 had to be better IMO.

Judkins himself still seems to be waiting to see if Amazon will take up S4 - or maybe I missed any announcement.

 

 

 

 

The way Egwene escaped the collar was also really badly done.

...and what happened to the head of the blue Ajah??  Did I miss something?

I am not sure what was wrong with source material and why it was done that way and why have they totally disregarded Rand's sword training to the extent they couldn't even give us the damn sword fight that was a seminal moment in the books ?? I don't get.  

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Rafe said the Ishy death was basically Ishy getting his wish to finally die.  He doesn't want to live so saw no reason to fight.  He succeeded in finally making LTT kill him. 

 

Still seemed like a very anti climatic, disappointing fight/ending.

Spoiler

As book readers, we can expect Moridin though.

 

[DigificWriter]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

what happened to the head of the blue Ajah??

 

She was crushed to death by debris.

 

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Spoiler

As book readers, we can expect Moridin though.

 

 

Not necessarily.

Edited October 6, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Mirefox]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

  Hide contents

As book readers, we can expect Moridin though.

 

I wonder how they will visualize it, because they will want non-readers to easily connect the dots.  Maybe a scene where we see Ishy die and crumble interspersed with a scene of ashes forming into a person?  

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Not necessarily.

We can expect it, we just may not get it.

Still, there's no reason for book readers to think that Ishamael is really, truly and forever dead. Indeed there is every reason to think he's playing the long game.

 

5 hours ago, Mirefox said:

I wonder how they will visualize it, because they will want non-readers to easily connect the dots.  Maybe a scene where we see Ishy die and crumble interspersed with a scene of ashes forming into a person?  

Or a literal resurrection by Shaidar Haran? Could be super creepy.

 

5 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I accept your apology and admission of defeat 😁

LOL. You wish!

[Lewstherin28]

I am just curious about when will mat take her future wife besides him and lost his eyes. It was must before season 2 finale but not happened yet.

I hated season 1 and i love season 2 but why writers changed the book a lot.

[Mirefox]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Or a literal resurrection by Shaidar Haran? Could be super creepy.

Super creepy, yes, but you still need the visual of Ishy.  Maybe a resurrection in Sharon Gul (forgot the spelling, sorry.  I’ve been doing the audiobooks this year) where we see a glitchy Ishy like in the dream and he either morphs or gets sucked into a new body?  It will certainly need some exposition over it.

[A Memory Of Why]

49 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I concur. The dagger is a giant plot hole.

 

A bit of a missed opportunity to clean this up by having Fain drop a line saying how the dagger is getting stronger the longer it's away from SL.

[Guire]

What I am seeing is that the writers and showrunners need a group of beta testers for the show at each stage instead of just one expert that can mull over their story boarding and suggest more coherent ideas to advance the plot that doesnt break later story.  I wonder where they could find this group of people? Such a giant mystery box?😆

[Mirefox]

4 hours ago, Guire said:

What I am seeing is that the writers and showrunners need a group of beta testers for the show at each stage instead of just one expert that can mull over their story boarding and suggest more coherent ideas to advance the plot that doesnt break later story.  I wonder where they could find this group of people? Such a giant mystery box?😆

A lot of times the writing in this show resembled the old “telephone” game as each time some lore or plot was passed on to the next writing committee something was lost.  What they need is a continuity expert.

 

Was it weird that the people of Falme were cheering the dragon banner?  I don’t remember their reactions in the book.

[Guire]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

A lot of times the writing in this show resembled the old “telephone” game as each time some lore or plot was passed on to the next writing committee something was lost.  What they need is a continuity expert.

Yep a get back coach like college football. Its why I said they needed a whole crew.  Sounds like Rafe and Sarah might be overwhelmed.

[Skipp]

23 minutes ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

A bit of a missed opportunity to clean this up by having Fain drop a line saying how the dagger is getting stronger the longer it's away from SL.

Agreed, there are a few times where if they were to add lines like this it would help the story a fair amount.

[Samt]

10 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Agreed, there are a few times where if they were to add lines like this it would help the story a fair amount.

It's sort of the heart of the issue, though. Not only are they not willing to be faithful to the book lore.  They also aren't willing (or perhaps lack the vision) to create and communicate a coherent alternative.  I've said from the beginning that the real problem is that there doesn't seem to be someone (and it should be a single person) with a clear vision of what the story and lore is actually going to be in the show.  And the more the story and lore deviates from the books, the more you need this person.  

[Sabio]

52 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Was it weird that the people of Falme were cheering the dragon banner?  I don’t remember their reactions in the book.

In the book there wasn't much about the average person in Falmes reaction.  With a battle being fought, the heroes of the horn running about, and a fight in the skies.  The dragon returning was a source of dread, so it's unlikely everyone would have been cheering.  Some would have been excited, but I would guess for the average person it would have been pretty scary moment.

[DaddyFinn]

Managed to rewatch it once so far and it only gets better. It was a strong finale for a strong season. It's gonna be a looong wait for S3. 🫠

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

It's sort of the heart of the issue, though. Not only are they not willing to be faithful to the book lore.  They also aren't willing (or perhaps lack the vision) to create and communicate a coherent alternative.  I've said from the beginning that the real problem is that there doesn't seem to be someone (and it should be a single person) with a clear vision of what the story and lore is actually going to be in the show.  And the more the story and lore deviates from the books, the more you need this person.  

I get the feeling they do not want to give strict rules, because they want to still improvise if the plot needs it.

I also get the feeling that this is just normal tv policy. watch the scene without thinking; does it have an emotional impact? if yes, mission accomplished. when you think 10 seconds you see a continuity error? well, people who care about those things - or about getting detailed explanations for stuff - usually read books, and don't watch much tv.

it's called segmentation of the market. you give your customers what they want to see. it affects every adaptation.

[DreadLord31]

3 hours ago, Guire said:

What I am seeing is that the writers and showrunners need a group of beta testers for the show at each stage instead of just one expert that can mull over their story boarding and suggest more coherent ideas to advance the plot that doesnt break later story.  I wonder where they could find this group of people? Such a giant mystery box?😆

Put me in coach! I have written some bloody fecking brilliant lines for this show that were better than what we got. For example, a much better cold open for this finale would have been - Ishy & LTT playing a game of stones, Ishy moves a piece and says, “I win again Lews Therin.” Lanfear stands behind LTT and scowls. Then at the end of the episode when Rand stabs Ishy. He smiles and says, “I win again Lews Therin.” 
 

Some thoughts from the thread, but I’m not going to go back and quote everybody. 
 

#1. I think it’s funny that there was actually a debate about whether the Egwene a’dam decision made sense; and some normally very cogent people (I’m looking at you @Elder_Haman ) defended it. It didn’t make sense, but was convenient as a “win” for Egwene. Just like it didn’t make sense for Egwene to single-handedly hold back Ishy & then having Perrin join her with a shield? Ishy & LTT are roughly equivalent in the OP even in the show right? Well they have 8 damane shielding Rand… the power scaling makes no sense. Why not just have Nyn & Elayne link with Egwene & hold back Ishy?? I’ll tell you why…simply because they wanted a big moment for Egwene. And the SL Dagger definitely doesn’t make sense. Even if you say, “Well, we made a mistake last season with having Loial and Uno be stabbed with the dagger and then they’re just fine.” Well - then you can’t have the dagger cut through metal & instant kill people in this season … but not instant kill Rand in this season. 
 

#2. I’m actually very hopeful the writing will improve from S3 on … because I do think Harris leaving part way through was their biggest obstacle & they’ve made the best of a crap situation. But Harris leaving doesn’t excuse the fact that Rafe, Sarah N, and maybe they even consultant BS gave a green light to these ridiculous contradictory decisions in the finales of both seasons. 
 

#3. Whoever argued we wouldn’t get Ishy back — nonsense — why do you think they did the cold open the way they did & had Ishy let Rand kill him. They even dropped the line about Lanfear that “how are you going to kill her? The Dark Lord has granted her immorality.” We’ll get Ishy back or a body swap (since that’s important for the series). Or we won’t because they do tons of crap like that that doesn’t make sense or pay-off. Like Ingtars arc? Or Uno? Or Fain? 
 

#4. Regardless of any of my complaints because of my book love…this was better Tv & step up from S1. There’s hope. I’m not going to read too much into no S4 announcement yet. We know we’ll get a S3 and it’ll line up more with Shadow Rising. So I’m pumped for that!! 

Edited October 7, 2023 by DreadLord31