WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[Finnssss22]

9 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Was Ishy’s intent clear?  I think the line could have worked no matter what; he’s saying “you did what I wanted you to do” whether than means killing him or accelerating or resurrection or whatever else he had in mind.  Ah well,  I big loss, I just think it would have be pretty cool.

 

It's pretty clear that Lanfear screwed his plans up, basically she made him spring his trap too soon. The conversation Lanfear has with Domon makes it clear she sent that piece of heartstone, more importantly the poem to Moiraine. She planned that Rand would take care of Ishamael and she would dump the remaining 6 Forsaken Seals in the ocean so she had Rand all to herself.

Ishy realised it, released all the Forsaken and was prefectly willing to gentle Rand and/or die himself and try again in a next life.

He may have thought he might be getting a true release at the end there but we all know the DO will never release him which is why I think a Moridin/Shadar Haran combo is incoming.

[DaddyFinn]

 

Interesting theory about the "rainbow" effect that's visible now and then. Tl;dr it's possibly ta'veren effects. The thread is worth reading. Hopefully ta'veren will be explained and explored more in s3 and beyond.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

But renna actually says this is not the case first infraction is removal of tongue second is removal of hands. Not sure how that is productive considering they use so much hand waving and i thought they showed in S1 with Valda that cutting off hands prevented some channeling.

Seanchan Damane may not have the same issue as Westlands Aes Sedai.

[Mailman]

56 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Seanchan Damane may not have the same issue as Westlands Aes Sedai.

It possible although they do seem to wave the hands around a lot in fairly particular patterns. The group shielding Rand all seemed to perform the same movements at the same time.

[LewsMFTherin]

On 10/5/2023 at 9:38 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I actually loved how Rand just ganked Turak. 

I was wondering how they were going to have him even narrowly win against a Blademaster without ANY of the Lan/Rand training (and their relationship building tbh - they're just doing Lan dirty altogether so far, imo).

But loved the scene a lot, problem solved lmao. 

[LewsMFTherin]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:06 AM, Lews Therin7 said:

Long time fan/lurker on this site here.  I'm 49 years old and have read the books more times that I can remember.  For me, this book series was my generation's Harry Potter series, where I eagerly awaited every book to come out.

 

So as a HUGE book fan, I hated absolutely everything about the first season.  However, this second season has won me over somewhat.  I have learned to relax and enjoy it for what it is.  So here are my thoughts, take it for what it's worth:

 

1) Loved that Rand used the Power to mow down Turok and his posse.  My favorite moment of the series so far.

2) Never been a huge Egwene fan.  Probably because I liked Rand too much and when she left him for the tower I soured on her as a character.  I was so happy when Rand showed her up in the tower in front of all the Aes Sedai (from the books).  However, this version of Egwene in the TV show is growing on me. 

3) Loved that Mat gained his memories from the horn.  Loved that Mat got to shine as a good guy period.

4) Nynaeve was one of the most annoying characters at the beginning of the book series, and ended up being one of my favorites at the conclusion.  I would have liked to have seen her shine more.

5) Rand being overwhelmed by Elayne's beauty was a nice touch.

6) Cringed at the Car'a'Carn remark from Aviendha as others have mentioned.

7) I love Lanfear in this series, but her remark about the Light helping Rand at the end... felt off considering who she is.

😎 Lan, what can I say about Lan, he was the most manly of all men in the books and he's just nowhere near his character in this TV show.  The biggest let down of the TV series for me.

9) I am looking forward to season three now.  Despite the crazy changes from the books, its still the WoT in a visual medium and I will always take more new WoT content over having none.

 

I feel all the same ways. But the show won me over. I think of it as an alternate turning of the Wheel now, and I'm into it tbh. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I don’t think I’ve seen this mentioned yet but it’s a long thread so I might have missed it…um, birgitte is definitely one of the heroes!

also is there going to be another hunt for the horn because it looks like it’s taken from mat by one of the heroes 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[Irvyne]

On 10/7/2023 at 1:28 PM, Scarloc99 said:

I do worry if the writing team are more on the Witcher end of the scale then not, Sarah said in her q and a that getting the writing room to understand Aiel and Seanchan culture was hard, so do we have a room of non book readers being given 2nd hand info by Rafe and Sarah? 
 

You then have the individual directors who actually make the episodes, are they book lovers or are they just filming a script that is 3rd hand lore now? 

This is the thing that just completely frazzles my brain.

You're about to produce a MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR production, based on a BEST-SELLING and BELOVED series of books.

Firstly, howwwwwww do you employ writers that are not familiar with and do not understand the source material?? Why would you ever do that?? I would think that would be the FIRST QUESTION in any kind of interview! "Tell me how much you know about the Wheel of Time."

Secondly, if you are lucky enough to be an employed writer on said show and you AREN'T familiar with the story, characters and lore, how can you possibly not think it might be useful (or at least professional) to become as familiar as you can before you start writing??

I just... I cannot comprehend it!

[Irvyne]

On 10/7/2023 at 8:53 PM, Uncontested said:

I know this is like 11 pages long already, but I haven't seen a single post about how the White Cloaks are finally wearing armor... that definitely made me happy considering how silly some of the costume design decisions of this show have been so far..

That was one thing that I did give an appreciative nod to.

Their costumes were much better this season.

[Mirefox]

9 hours ago, Mailman said:

But renna actually says this is not the case first infraction is removal of tongue second is removal of hands. Not sure how that is productive considering they use so much hand waving and i thought they showed in S1 with Valda that cutting off hands prevented some channeling.

It’s nonsense.  
 

I think when Valda says it, it is because there is a misconception on his part.  AS do not need their hand but many learn to weave using their hands and it is a bit of a crutch for them.  But not required.  We actually see that with Lanfear, who doesn’t need the physical drama to channel.  Moiraine, on the other hand, must interpretive dance to channel.  One can only guess what would happen if she lost her hands.

 

But Rena’s comment is pure stupidity.  Every single visual we have had of the Seanchan channeling is that it is highly choreographed and motion-based.  Even the Suldam make motions in concert with their Damane.  The line is just one amongst millions that was written for effect without concern of the actual lore they themselves have created.

[king of nowhere]

8 hours ago, Mailman said:

But renna actually says this is not the case first infraction is removal of tongue second is removal of hands. Not sure how that is productive considering they use so much hand waving and i thought they showed in S1 with Valda that cutting off hands prevented some channeling.

huh... my comment wasn't entirely serious.

anyway, hand gestures are unnecessary, and people can be taught to go without them.

29 minutes ago, Irvyne said:

This is the thing that just completely frazzles my brain.

You're about to produce a MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR production, based on a BEST-SELLING and BELOVED series of books.

Firstly, howwwwwww do you employ writers that are not familiar with and do not understand the source material?? Why would you ever do that?? I would think that would be the FIRST QUESTION in any kind of interview! "Tell me how much you know about the Wheel of Time."

see, here's a bit of a misconception. Yes, the wheel of time is a bestselling series of books. It sold over 100 million copies worldwide. that's huge, right? everyone must have heard of it.

Then you consider it's 14 books. So divide 100 by 14, you get 7 million copies for the whole saga. already a lot less. You can even double that numer because people may share those books - me and my brother have a single copy, but we both read it - and you get 15 million readers maybe.

In the whole world. Now, we can assume most of those readers are in the western world, which has roughly one billion people, and we get that little more than 1% of your population has read the wheel of time. A few more % have heard of it from someone else, but a good 95% of people never heard about it.

So, while wot is a major bestselling series of books, it's not something like star wars, or james bond, which are major bestselling movies. a major bestselling movies is something everyone heard about - and even non-fans are at least vaguely familiary with the topic. a major bestselling book is something most people never heard.

Then you also get sample selection. we determined that 1 to 2% of the population has read the wheel of time. but that number is skewed towards book readers and fantasy nerds. most movie writers and directors, I'd surmise, are not book readers, else they would have become writers. they are instead movie watchers, hence they went to work with movies. So the percentage of movie directors who actually read the wheel of time could be even lower than in the global population.

You want a writer/director who's familiar with the content? good job, you already excluded 99% of all available creators. I don't think there are enough screenwriters familiar with the wheel of time in all the united states for your needs. And most of them already have other contracts.
 

Quote

 

Secondly, if you are lucky enough to be an employed writer on said show and you AREN'T familiar with the story, characters and lore, how can you possibly not think it might be useful (or at least professional) to become as familiar as you can before you start writing??

I just... I cannot comprehend it!

 

And here's the second misconception. While the show has a big budget of 100 millions per season, that doesn't mean it's got money to throw away. Sure, they look like a lot of money. Then you have to pay the actors, some of whom are expensive. Even the extras are not cheap; a trolloc may appear one minute in the show, but it took days of work to prepare the prostetics and train the actor.

Then you have to pay the set. Emond field does not build itself, you know. how much did they spend to create a whole village, then burn it down? Then there is the cgi, a lot of it in a fantasy show with widespread magic. then there is marketing. consider it all, you don't have much money to spare.

with that in mind, can you put in the contract with a screenwriter the need to read the books? if it was a single book, then yes. I'm sure when they filmed the martian everyone majorly involved had read the book, because it was a relatively short book you can read in a couple afternoons. Not so the wheel of time. it takes months to read. And even after you read it once, you still miss most details.

So, do you think you can ask so many writers to stop all their work and spend months doing nothing but reading books, just to familiarize with the material? or to do it in their own time?

Hopefully you see it's not realistic.

what you can realistically do is hire a recognized book expert to sum up and explain to the writers what they need to know. which is exactly what they did, with sarah nakamura.

 

 

[king of nowhere]

9 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Every single visual we have had of the Seanchan channeling is that it is highly choreographed and motion-based.  Even the Suldam make motions in concert with their Damane.  The line is just one amongst millions that was written for effect without concern of the actual lore they themselves have created.

it's highly coreographed because it's a tv show and must look good, no other reason.

even valda himself states that hand gestures are not necessary, so there is no lore issue unless one already decided he hates the show and wants to see the negative in everything.

 

well, if a damane resisted all the torture, and still won't channel in battle. if you cut her tongue, and still she resisted. what else could you do? last extreme, you can try to threaten an even bigger physical punishment, and chopping off hands is pretty much what's left. It will also make the damane less effective, because she can't ride unaided, but the alternative is losing the damane, so it's worth a try. finally, if the damane still resists, I suppose they'll kill her.

But I don't think it's actually relevant, because I don't think therre's ever much need for that punishment. Seanchan culture approves of damane, so most girls just go along and obey orders without need for cohercition. The recalcitrant ones can be tortured very effectively. Even aes sedai and wise ones are known to eventually give up. How often do you think it will be actually necessary to chop pieces off a damane? not enough to be a real issue to society. and the possibility of it happening is there as bogeyman; it's one of those cases where the threat is more effective than its execution.

[Elder_Haman]

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

wave the hands around a lot

 

 

Move the arms would be more accurate. Nothing I've seen the damane so far requires fingers or hands.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[Agitel]

2 hours ago, Irvyne said:

Firstly, howwwwwww do you employ writers that are not familiar with and do not understand the source material?? Why would you ever do that?? I would think that would be the FIRST QUESTION in any kind of interview! "Tell me how much you know about the Wheel of Time."

Secondly, if you are lucky enough to be an employed writer on said show and you AREN'T familiar with the story, characters and lore, how can you possibly not think it might be useful (or at least professional) to become as familiar as you can before you start writing??

I just... I cannot comprehend it!

 

I've my criticisms of the series and this last episode, but what they're doing is very standard in the industry. Writers aren't expected to have that level of knowledge of source material and sometimes intentionally avoid it to have fresh perspective or not get biased in how they write.

 

It's frustrating, but it's normal. Usually the main showrunners are in the know.

[Agitel]

Maybe if RoP S2 bombs then WoT S4 can get its budget.

 

I can dream.

[notpropaganda73]

This point about the writers' knowledge of the books came up in S1. I'm more concerned that the quality of writing has been so up and down, not that there are gaps/changes/inconsistencies from book lore. Consistent quality from the scripts would render those changes pretty irrelevant imo.

 

[DaddyFinn]

 

Good points in this thread also. Considering that Rand is still taking his first baby steps with channeling, he's doing well.

[king of nowhere]

27 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

Good points in this thread also. Considering that Rand is still taking his first baby steps with channeling, he's doing well.

interesting. it's the kind of details, unfortunately, that most viewers miss. including myself.

by the way, by show lore rand and ishy should be evenly matched - though I doubt they ever fought with the power in the books. it seems show rand is a lot stronger than even his book counterpart.

[EmreY]

30 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

it seems show rand is a lot stronger than even his book counterpart.

 

I'm very confused by this series, and that's one of the things that makes me confused. 

 

In that scene he appears to be overawingly powerful*.  (For my part, I also think the canon power rating of Ishy v. Rand make no sense.  It's obvious the Dragon is the Creator's Darling Boy.)  Or else the scene is junk.  I cannot decide which.

 

"The water that turns the wheel"-powerful, which is much more than anyone in the books acknowledges though Aviendha seems to hint it.

Edited October 8, 2023 by EmreY

[Robbin Poh]

If that 

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

Good points in this thread also. Considering that Rand is still taking his first baby steps with channeling, he's doing well.

The fatal loophole in this analysis is that Siuan shields him with barely any effort just half a day ago. 

I think the key differences are the horn, and Ishy seeing the horn's effect on Rand and Egwene, as well as the power in that sword weave, so he gives up for this turning

[Samt]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

huh... my comment wasn't entirely serious.

anyway, hand gestures are unnecessary, and people can be taught to go without them.

see, here's a bit of a misconception. Yes, the wheel of time is a bestselling series of books. It sold over 100 million copies worldwide. that's huge, right? everyone must have heard of it.

Then you consider it's 14 books. So divide 100 by 14, you get 7 million copies for the whole saga. already a lot less. You can even double that numer because people may share those books - me and my brother have a single copy, but we both read it - and you get 15 million readers maybe.

In the whole world. Now, we can assume most of those readers are in the western world, which has roughly one billion people, and we get that little more than 1% of your population has read the wheel of time. A few more % have heard of it from someone else, but a good 95% of people never heard about it.

So, while wot is a major bestselling series of books, it's not something like star wars, or james bond, which are major bestselling movies. a major bestselling movies is something everyone heard about - and even non-fans are at least vaguely familiary with the topic. a major bestselling book is something most people never heard.

Then you also get sample selection. we determined that 1 to 2% of the population has read the wheel of time. but that number is skewed towards book readers and fantasy nerds. most movie writers and directors, I'd surmise, are not book readers, else they would have become writers. they are instead movie watchers, hence they went to work with movies. So the percentage of movie directors who actually read the wheel of time could be even lower than in the global population.

You want a writer/director who's familiar with the content? good job, you already excluded 99% of all available creators. I don't think there are enough screenwriters familiar with the wheel of time in all the united states for your needs. And most of them already have other contracts.
 

And here's the second misconception. While the show has a big budget of 100 millions per season, that doesn't mean it's got money to throw away. Sure, they look like a lot of money. Then you have to pay the actors, some of whom are expensive. Even the extras are not cheap; a trolloc may appear one minute in the show, but it took days of work to prepare the prostetics and train the actor.

Then you have to pay the set. Emond field does not build itself, you know. how much did they spend to create a whole village, then burn it down? Then there is the cgi, a lot of it in a fantasy show with widespread magic. then there is marketing. consider it all, you don't have much money to spare.

with that in mind, can you put in the contract with a screenwriter the need to read the books? if it was a single book, then yes. I'm sure when they filmed the martian everyone majorly involved had read the book, because it was a relatively short book you can read in a couple afternoons. Not so the wheel of time. it takes months to read. And even after you read it once, you still miss most details.

So, do you think you can ask so many writers to stop all their work and spend months doing nothing but reading books, just to familiarize with the material? or to do it in their own time?

Hopefully you see it's not realistic.

what you can realistically do is hire a recognized book expert to sum up and explain to the writers what they need to know. which is exactly what they did, with sarah nakamura.

 

 

And doing the math on Nielsen ratings from season 1, the equivalent of 2.5 million people watched the season all the way through (I say equivalent, because it’s probably a combination of a larger number of people, some of which didn’t watch the whole thing).  So if only half the people who read the books by your estimate, just watched the whole season 1, 3 times the people would have watched it that actually did.  The claim that simply getting people who read the books to watch the show wouldn’t be enough seems wrong.  

[Ralph]

On 10/6/2023 at 6:08 PM, ilovezam said:

 

 

In season 1, Brandon Sanderson said in a podcast that Moiraine was initially written to directly kill that ship captain and his boat in one of the early episodes, before he wrote in a suggestion to change that scene because her Oaths wouldn't allow her to do that.

 

sorry if already given in the next eight pages that I have not yet read, but could you post the source of this - I have not seen it

[Ralph]

On 10/6/2023 at 6:33 PM, fearbrog said:

.

 

Why couldn't Rand, being faced with incredible odds, stood as free man in defiance to Dark One and his lies and seduction and demonstrating his determination to not let himself succumb to darkness and become pawn and toy in Dark Ones hands. You know, just like Rand in the books.

 

and in the show both in s1e8 and s2e8

[Ralph]

On 10/6/2023 at 8:19 PM, Mirefox said:

Was Min’s vision consistent?

 

Based on this episode, we have to conclude that a) Min’s visions are metaphorical and not literal, since what she saw was not what happened, and b) Min misinterprets her visions.

 

I don’t care if either of these is true, but it is consistent with how her visions have worked so far this show?  I really can’t remember now.

I think so, and both exactly like the books

 

Rafe said there will be a deleted scene released soon that will add to this

[Ralph]

On 10/7/2023 at 1:50 AM, DreadLord31 said:

Put me in coach! I have written some bloody fecking brilliant lines for this show that were better than what we got. For example, a much better cold open for this finale would have been - Ishy & LTT playing a game of stones, Ishy moves a piece and says, “I win again Lews Therin.” Lanfear stands behind LTT and scowls. Then at the end of the episode when Rand stabs Ishy. He smiles and says, “I win again Lews Therin.” 
 

Some thoughts from the thread, but I’m not going to go back and quote everybody. 
 

#1. I think it’s funny that there was actually a debate about whether the Egwene a’dam decision made sense; and some normally very cogent people (I’m looking at you @Elder_Haman ) defended it. It didn’t make sense, but was convenient as a “win” for Egwene. Just like it didn’t make sense for Egwene to single-handedly hold back Ishy & then having Perrin join her with a shield? Ishy & LTT are roughly equivalent in the OP even in the show right? Well they have 8 damane shielding Rand… the power scaling makes no sense. Why not just have Nyn & Elayne link with Egwene & hold back Ishy?? I’ll tell you why…simply because they wanted a big moment for Egwene. And the SL Dagger definitely doesn’t make sense. Even if you say, “Well, we made a mistake last season with having Loial and Uno be stabbed with the dagger and then they’re just fine.” Well - then you can’t have the dagger cut through metal & instant kill people in this season … but not instant kill Rand in this season. 
 

#2. I’m actually very hopeful the writing will improve from S3 on … because I do think Harris leaving part way through was their biggest obstacle & they’ve made the best of a crap situation. But Harris leaving doesn’t excuse the fact that Rafe, Sarah N, and maybe they even consultant BS gave a green light to these ridiculous contradictory decisions in the finales of both seasons. 
 

#3. Whoever argued we wouldn’t get Ishy back — nonsense — why do you think they did the cold open the way they did & had Ishy let Rand kill him. They even dropped the line about Lanfear that “how are you going to kill her? The Dark Lord has granted her immorality.” We’ll get Ishy back or a body swap (since that’s important for the series). Or we won’t because they do tons of crap like that that doesn’t make sense or pay-off. Like Ingtars arc? Or Uno? Or Fain? 
 

#4. Regardless of any of my complaints because of my book love…this was better Tv & step up from S1. There’s hope. I’m not going to read too much into no S4 announcement yet. We know we’ll get a S3 and it’ll line up more with Shadow Rising. So I’m pumped for that!! 

 

 

not killing Rand instantly like it kills others is straight from the books, book 6 iirc

 

immorality????!!!!! 😜😂😂