WoT Season 2 Episode 7: Daes Dae'Mar

[Finnssss22]

25 minutes ago, MarcusM said:

Aha, I like this idea.

Better yet, I just now got confirmation from a very credible source that Lan is to become the permanent Karaetheon Warder of the White Tower libraries from now throughout the rest of the show. Apparently many viewers complained that all the prophesy was too obscurely delivered on screen and they realized they had to something significant. And obviously they got awesome feedback on the test concepts where Lan explored (... and here I quote my source) "his softer self" and "where he was to contribute more with reasoning, philosophy, literature".  So they realized that they would want him "to deliver frequent of insights from the Age of Legends throughout each episode from season 3". As a result they are apparently seriously considering removing Herid Fel completely and maybe reducing the brown-ish part of Verin's role significantly in favor to make her all black-ish.

So you see, they will make "a very modern completely non violent man out of him".

 

Or if they do something with them in the Extra's maybe.

If you only watched GoT and never actually read the books then you don't realise how much of that series' prophecies were cut for the show.

The issue of course is if you're going to include a prophecy in a tv show, it means you need to know for sure that you're going to be doing a certain event and you already have an idea/plan of what that will be.

So far they have kinda been dropping them after or just as something is happening.

Blood calls blood poem as Lanfear is revealed.

Both Moiraine and Verin separately quoting the Toman Head fire across the sky one right after each time Rand says he's going to Falme.

 

So the one passage about "The Dragon healing the wounds of madness". Do they drop that a couple seasons in advance of the cleansing, the season before, the season of, right as he's doing it or right after he does it?

My guess, going by current tends so far, is it will be one of the options during the season of.

[Cipher]

10 hours ago, Guire said:

I really like both actors in Damodred family so extending their runs would be great.  Seeing more mature Rand playing off Lady Anveare in court if she is jockying for power would be good TV.

Don’t give the writers any ideas, we got too many story threads competing for screen time as it is.

[DigificWriter]

Rafe said in his first post-Strike AMA that he has big things planned for Anvaere going forward.

Edited October 4, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

I think RJ always knew how Fain would be killed (by Mat obviously) but yeah the when and how was still the question.

In end, most of the issues people have with Fain has to do with them being fooled into believing what Fain was preaching. Fain thought he was outside the Pattern and was destined for some great thing.

The reality was he was never outside the Pattern, he had delusions of grandeur and he was absolutely insane.

Shadar Logath was created by the Pattern 2000 years in advance of Rand needing it. Fain's whole purpose give or take was to deliver the means to Rand to figure out how to cleanse Saidin.

*EDIT* As well as being the catalyst to set all 3 boys on their respective paths. Perrin going to the Two Rivers to save it and unlocking Mat's initial memories as well as his need to acquire/replace more of them.

I mean you could maybe make the argument that Fain kept some of the Shadow's forces in check from time to time but really once he got Mat and Perrin going and stabbed Rand, he was just a big ole Red Herring for the rest of the series.

My alternate ending of the story has a much bigger role for fain, I always thought the story would be much more interesting if at the end Rand realised there was no creator, that the dark lord is just an ancient evil that was trapped away in a previous turning, a mortal who gained supernatural powers and knowledge. 
 

Rand finishes the last battle killing the dark lord, because humanity will continue being good and evil, this being has no impact on that, and the battle is won, but then, he realises there is a new evil risen, one that can destroy the world, one that needs to be inprisoned, and so Rand dies not killing the dark one, but imprisoning the next. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Rafe said in his first post-Strike AMA that he has big things planned for Anvaere going forward.

I have a worry she may end up hanging around in her bedroom eventually. 

[Robbin Poh]

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

My alternate ending of the story has a much bigger role for fain, I always thought the story would be much more interesting if at the end Rand realised there was no creator, that the dark lord is just an ancient evil that was trapped away in a previous turning, a mortal who gained supernatural powers and knowledge. 
 

Rand finishes the last battle killing the dark lord, because humanity will continue being good and evil, this being has no impact on that, and the battle is won, but then, he realises there is a new evil risen, one that can destroy the world, one that needs to be inprisoned, and so Rand dies not killing the dark one, but imprisoning the next. 

That feels quite like Brandon Sanderson's plot style, I recall in one of his books, a side character became the new god.

But RJ's style is epic fantasy, so there is more of a fundamental approach to good and evil and freedom of choice etc. I just wish he had written the Shadar Logoth evil more clearly. Although RJ wrote that it originated from the evil of mankind alone, no darkfriends needed, but the DO has to exist for mankind to choose to become evil, therefore the evil of Shadar Logoth cannot truly be completely independent of the DO's evil. It should be more of a Saidin vs Saidar relationship, opposing but closely connected. Sort of like how the Horn and Heroes are probably not created by the Creator directly, but arose due to unknown mechanisms.

[king of nowhere]

7 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I have a worry she may end up hanging around in her bedroom eventually. 

I hope not that. She's a good woman. Many in her position would have protected their son. Many cahirienin nobles would have sworn to the shadow themselves. She already suffered much, and in the end she sacrificed a lot to stand up for right. 

I'd be really sad to see her end like that

[Finnssss22]

RJ wrote the ending when he wrote the Eye of the World prologue.

Large portions of the final chapters in aMoL including Rand's defeating and resealing of the Dark One were already written or partially written by RJ in his notes.

Rand in his new body riding off into the sunset and the lighting of his pipe was all RJ as well.

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

RJ wrote the ending when he wrote the Eye of the World prologue.

 

no, not really.

yes, he had a storyline planned in advance. he had some events that he knew he wanted to show. the first book already has some of min viewings related to mat adventures among the finns.

however, what he had was a vague outline. he didn't have a detailed plot before writing book 1. He didn't have a detailed plot even when he died.

when brandon sanderson overtook writing - after RJ spent his last months writing scenes and notes - what was there was less a cohesive plot and more a line of stepping stones; character arcs would go in certain directions, some main events would happen. the skeleton of a story, we can say. and some bits of flesh in the form of some written scenes. but some bones were also missing. iirc, there wasn't a single line on padan fain.

even what was there was an outline, and some of it was changed in revision. and before someone say "omg they changed his books", that's what always happens in the editing process. An author starts with an outline, but as he writes some things just don't work. some plot points are no longer consistent with who the characters have become. there are editors for this.

 

so, while it's not correct to say that RJ expanded his writing gradually as he came up with new ideas, it's also incorrect to frame him as a genius mastermind who plotted a 4.4 million words saga from the beginning before even writing the first book - and then always stuck to the initial plan, because the initial plan was that good. no, the truth is somewhere in between.

yes, he had a general outline. but he also wrote the first three books to be self-conclusive, because he didn't knew if he would get a contract for a new book afterwards - and those endings aged pretty poorly, because they tried to provide forced endings to a story that hasn't ended.

yes, he had a general idea of the arcs of his major characters. but he also had many minor characters he didn't knew what to do with. he had a lot of blank spaces to fill, and sometimes the stuff he used to fill those blank spaces took on a life of its own.

[Vartija]

I'm not sure if RJ actually wrote the ending when TEOTW came out, but he often said he could write the ending whenever he wanted to because he had it so clearly in his mind from the start. Outside of that he said he had certain events that he wanted to explore but the road to and order of those events could change during the writing process. Most of his notes weren't plot related rather than culture and character traits. The story itself was in his head and therefore probably very malleable during the writing process. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Vartija
typos

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

RJ wrote the ending when he wrote the Eye of the World prologue.

Large portions of the final chapters in aMoL including Rand's defeating and resealing of the Dark One were already written or partially written by RJ in his notes.

Rand in his new body riding off into the sunset and the lighting of his pipe was all RJ as well.

Always wonder how truly accurate this is, JK Rowling claimed when she write Philophisers stone that she had written the very last chapter of the series, she claimed that for years, but she then admitted that she actually re wrote and changed that last chapter multiple times including at the very end. 
 

I would be interested to know to what “extent” was it written, notes on a post it, a flesh of an idea or written out as prose. 
 

I also wonder, given how RJ shifted and changed the story as it progressed, how much would it have changed when he actually came to write the end, especially how far the story had moved from the start in eotw. 

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Always wonder how truly accurate this is, JK Rowling claimed when she write Philophisers stone that she had written the very last chapter of the series, she claimed that for years, but she then admitted that she actually re wrote and changed that last chapter multiple times including at the very end. 
 

I would be interested to know to what “extent” was it written, notes on a post it, a flesh of an idea or written out as prose. 
 

I also wonder, given how RJ shifted and changed the story as it progressed, how much would it have changed when he actually came to write the end, especially how far the story had moved from the start in eotw. 

I don't know other writers, but I follow brandon sanderson, and he goes through a half dozen revisions on every book - those revisions include rewriting significant portions.

so, there's nothing shameful to "admit". writing a book is much akin to some project of engineering - in that the first prototype will never work properly, and it will need several iterations to get it right. an engineer may just come up with an idea for a new gadget and have a perfect idea on how to build it before even going to the drawing board, but that first idea will never work on the first try and will always need tweaking.

[Finnssss22]

19 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I don't know other writers, but I follow brandon sanderson, and he goes through a half dozen revisions on every book - those revisions include rewriting significant portions.

so, there's nothing shameful to "admit". writing a book is much akin to some project of engineering - in that the first prototype will never work properly, and it will need several iterations to get it right. an engineer may just come up with an idea for a new gadget and have a perfect idea on how to build it before even going to the drawing board, but that first idea will never work on the first try and will always need tweaking.

 

This is exactly how I know this because BS was doing a progression blog during the writing of aMoL and he would be like...well, that was an easy chapter, all I had to do was make a couple of corrections and write about a paragraph. 

[Finnssss22]

5 hours ago, Vartija said:

I'm not sure if RJ actually wrote the ending when TEOTW came out, but he often said he could write the ending whenever he wanted to because he had it so clearly in his mind from the start. Outside of that he said he had certain events that he wanted to explore but the road to and order of those events could change during the writing process. Most of his notes weren't plot related rather than culture and character traits. The story itself was in his head and therefore probably very malleable during the writing process. 

 

The tEotW prologue and the final confrontation with the DO was the first thing he wrote. He had the bread, now he just needed to fill in the sandwich.

[Finnssss22]

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

no, not really.

yes, he had a storyline planned in advance. he had some events that he knew he wanted to show. the first book already has some of min viewings related to mat adventures among the finns.

however, what he had was a vague outline. he didn't have a detailed plot before writing book 1. He didn't have a detailed plot even when he died.

when brandon sanderson overtook writing - after RJ spent his last months writing scenes and notes - what was there was less a cohesive plot and more a line of stepping stones; character arcs would go in certain directions, some main events would happen. the skeleton of a story, we can say. and some bits of flesh in the form of some written scenes. but some bones were also missing. iirc, there wasn't a single line on padan fain.

even what was there was an outline, and some of it was changed in revision. and before someone say "omg they changed his books", that's what always happens in the editing process. An author starts with an outline, but as he writes some things just don't work. some plot points are no longer consistent with who the characters have become. there are editors for this.

 

so, while it's not correct to say that RJ expanded his writing gradually as he came up with new ideas, it's also incorrect to frame him as a genius mastermind who plotted a 4.4 million words saga from the beginning before even writing the first book - and then always stuck to the initial plan, because the initial plan was that good. no, the truth is somewhere in between.

yes, he had a general outline. but he also wrote the first three books to be self-conclusive, because he didn't knew if he would get a contract for a new book afterwards - and those endings aged pretty poorly, because they tried to provide forced endings to a story that hasn't ended.

yes, he had a general idea of the arcs of his major characters. but he also had many minor characters he didn't knew what to do with. he had a lot of blank spaces to fill, and sometimes the stuff he used to fill those blank spaces took on a life of its own.

 

You're right, it wasn't that simple

The first 3 books were originally 1 book draft or drafts actually as his earliest draft was more LotR based because that's what he wanted to write for. That's why the first 3 books have a LotR feel. While he then began crafting his own story after failing to secure permission to write in the LotR world, he still wanted to pay hommage to his favourite author Tolkien.

I would have to look up and find the exact details of his first book deal but the jist of it was he needed to break it into 3 books and more to follow. I don't think it was clear if the cutting of Dannil Lewin as the 4th Ta'veren boy was something he did on his own beforehand or if that happened when he broke it into 3 books. I am almost positive though that I recall it being Harriet that got him to cut it beforehand.

What I do know is that the final scene between Rand and the DO was the ending in the original drafts which he obviously took out of book 3 and put in his back pocket for the actual end of the series.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Mirefox]

41 minutes ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

The tEotW prologue and the final confrontation with the DO was the first thing he wrote. He had the bread, now he just needed to fill in the sandwich.

 

[Gypsum]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

I don't know other writers, but I follow brandon sanderson, and he goes through a half dozen revisions on every book - those revisions include rewriting significant portions.

so, there's nothing shameful to "admit". writing a book is much akin to some project of engineering - in that the first prototype will never work properly, and it will need several iterations to get it right. an engineer may just come up with an idea for a new gadget and have a perfect idea on how to build it before even going to the drawing board, but that first idea will never work on the first try and will always need tweaking.

 

Isn't that how most people write novels? 🙂 It's how I do it anyway. My first thought was, only half a dozen revisions?? Yeesh. That's efficient. I lost count how many revisions I did on my last novel, and don't ask me how many times I rewrote the last 50 pages. Like completely rewrote, making completely different things happen.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Gypsum said:

 

Isn't that how most people write novels? 🙂 It's how I do it anyway. My first thought was, only half a dozen revisions?? Yeesh. That's efficient. I lost count how many revisions I did on my last novel, and don't ask me how many times I rewrote the last 50 pages. Like completely rewrote, making completely different things happen.

I can't finish my novel because I get in a doom loop of blaming myself for being a terrible writer after I constantly feel the need to revise and then just chuck everything.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

This is exactly how I know this because BS was doing a progression blog during the writing of aMoL and he would be like...well, that was an easy chapter, all I had to do was make a couple of corrections and write about a paragraph. 

And this is my issue, I don’t know if RJ would have used those sections as is, and to my mind reading all 3 books the tone and voice changes so drastically to RJ’s other books I don’t know if I believe it, I really don’t see how RJ would have just changed his writing style so drastically to suddenly become so bad. 

[Wassup]

On 10/4/2023 at 7:15 AM, Mirefox said:

On top of that, season 1 ended with Fain showing up almost out of nowhere and getting stabby with the dagger.  I’d imagine they don’t want to be redundant here.

What if that becomes his thing?  The end of each season has him show up and stab someone. Each season, people would be guessing who is Fain going to stab this time?

 

he would be like Swipper from Dora the explorer. 

[Gypsum]

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I can't finish my novel because I get in a doom loop of blaming myself for being a terrible writer after I constantly feel the need to revise and then just chuck everything.

 

Perfection is the enemy of good. I could have revised forever ('that word is wrong!') but ultimately there was a f*ck it moment, and I got the thing published. I'm working on my third novel the now. Still hammering out the first draft, which is basically a sketch, and I expect to rewrite it at least 30 times.

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, Gypsum said:

 

Perfection is the enemy of good. I could have revised forever ('that word is wrong!') but ultimately there was a f*ck it moment, and I got the thing published. I'm working on my third novel the now. Still hammering out the first draft, which is basically a sketch, and I expect to rewrite it at least 30 times.

Becoming a DnD DM taught me this, I have seen so many DM's try and perfect the world before they let players loose in it, wanting to know the backstory of Greta the barmaid in a tavern at the edge of the world, just in case the players go there. I have got really good at just having the minimum I need in my world at any one point for the story and then feed off the players to make the world and create the story as we go through it. 

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Becoming a DnD DM taught me this, I have seen so many DM's try and perfect the world before they let players loose in it, wanting to know the backstory of Greta the barmaid in a tavern at the edge of the world, just in case the players go there. I have got really good at just having the minimum I need in my world at any one point for the story and then feed off the players to make the world and create the story as we go through it. 

Greta the barmaid is cleary the BBEG of the entire story. She's running a shadow network of mummy assassins, and she only went down that path because the players stiffed her on a bar tab 3 campaigns ago.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

7 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Becoming a DnD DM taught me this, I have seen so many DM's try and perfect the world before they let players loose in it, wanting to know the backstory of Greta the barmaid in a tavern at the edge of the world, just in case the players go there. I have got really good at just having the minimum I need in my world at any one point for the story and then feed off the players to make the world and create the story as we go through it. 

That does not make a lot of sense. In a novel, when you send it off, that is it, you cannot change it any more, and if there are flaws they could prevent you being published or mean you get bad reviews or that your sequels are messed up. You are talking about leaving details vague so that you can you ad-lib later. Absolutely not the same thing. 

 

Plus SinisterDeath doesn't know half of what Greta has going on. Wait til he sees what's in his fridge tonight, then he'll understand what not paying your tab means to a hard-working barmaid.