WoT Season 2 Episode 6: Eyes Without Pity

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

You're kinda missing the point here and being extremely shortsighted.

That Ishy is literally the creator of the Seanchan and the reason they exist was the point. What's more is he made sure through his tampering of the K-cycle that when they did return to Randland, they would automatically be in conflict.

And even all this was actually secondary to his real objective which was to send away any of Hawkwing's heirs strong enough or capable enough of holding his Empire together after his passing. Then he made sure Hawkwing passed before any of the remaining heirs could amass enough control or influence to hold it together either.

The result was the War of the Hundred Years and Randland once again splintered. By the time the Dragon was reborn, there was absolutely zero chance of Randland being an united continent with any real advanced level of technology or knowledge.

And let's not forget that making the AS have to swear on the Oath Rod literally cut all their lifespans in half from that point onward.

 

The statement that the villain shoulda just stayed home because the hero overcame all the traps and obstacles he put in place is ridiculous. IT'S QUITE LITERALLY WHAT THE HERO IS SUPPOSED TO DO!

 

Sauron never should've made the Rings in the first place because the One Ring is going to get destroyed and you will be defeated anyway, stay home big fella, don't bother.

The Knightking never shoulda bothered making other Whitewalkers or raising an army of undead or crossing the Wall because he was just going to be defeated and killed anyway. Naw dude, just find a nice cave to relax in, it's all good.

What do you mean the good guys won and the bad guys lost, that's preposterous, unheard of, a total shocker!!! 
C'mon now...

 

No offence but you actually sound ridiculous, sorry but you do.

Ok I think you took my tongue in cheek comment a little to heart, but, I also think what I describe is one of the biggest issues of RJ’s writing, ishy tried to win the last battle, but every step he took, with the exception of sending half hawk wings forces to shara, ended up blowing back in his face. Yes the oaths shortened lives, but they also ensured the white tower stayed stable and became the political force in Randland without needing to resort to might. 
 

In the LOTR Sauron almost won, he came very very close to it. I love WOT but I also acknowledge the weakness in the writing, and the main one is that right the way through the books the first time of reading, I was never once led to believe that the side of light was ever really in any peril, and part of it is that Ishy flaw, the fact that for all the intricate plans the dark puts in place, the good guys end up largely getting lucky, usually literally. There are no real stakes because we know that everything will come good, because the prophesy sorts itself out. 
 

You can try and couch that this happened or that happened, but the fact is, no war of 100 years, no Aiel war, no Rand being born on Dragonmount. And no need for the Dragon, to unify the nations. The hundred year war had to happen in order I make sure the dragon could do what he needed to do. Every one of Ishys success can be tracked directly to the ultimate success of the light, and yes, RJ needed to craft and weave his backstory and figure out how Randland went from the breaking, to stability, to instability and Ishy is a great character to give all that to, but. RJ also shows the problem in starting in the middle of a story. Where as Tolkien had defined all of the past before writing about the present, RJ shows the pitfalls of starting a story and then writing and filling in then backstory as you go. 

 

And trying to insist that ishy somehow instigated all aspects of Seanchan culture, he got unlucky and the Hawkwong forces figured out how to do what the sharan half couldn’t, survive and then thrive. Even his “corrupted” prophesies ended up feeding into the actual prophesy, meaning he was always mean to do what he did just so the Seanchan could return in the right headspace. His main hope was the 2 armies would both be destroyed. 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Windigo said:

I remember many conversations, the Dreamer one is a solid theory. 
I tended to align more with foretelling or some other ability to read the pattern. 

 

and yet he reads it wrong? Sorry, I get why you are all trying to say, and this is in part a side effect of the books not investigating these aspects. I wonder if Ishy purposely worked against the dark lord because he hopes if the dragon won he would be over. I have long thought that the argument that ishy and LTT have fought this battle over and over is actually wrong. When the next turning happens the world will be so very very different, and maybe it will be the female half that is tainted, maybe humanity will never discover the one power, maybe Ogiers and the Finn are only around for this turning. I see the events and characters of the WOT being a unique story that is never repeated in any way like this. Yes there will be struggles with each turning, but, they will be so alien and different each time so as to seem like it is an entirely different story with no connection to the WOT. For example, maybe the LOTR is a different turning, or the world of the 40k universe. The story could be as diverse as each of those. 
 

In this case everything ishy did was a one off, and at best he manages to see medium term into the future, but never long term to the end, because he got everything, including the final battle with rand, so so wrong. Or, he finally truly died and actually got what he had always really wanted, the shadow to lose. Because he knew he was never coming back as ishy ever again. 

[DreadLord31]

2 hours ago, Ralph said:

but none of your examples happened except the Moiraine one

I don’t know what you mean? All of the examples I gave happened in the show…

If I was more interested in rewatching I’d give you the time stamps, but alas, I’d rather watch Football. 

[Finnssss22]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

Ok I think you took my tongue in cheek comment a little to heart, but, I also think what I describe is one of the biggest issues of RJ’s writing, ishy tried to win the last battle, but every step he took, with the exception of sending half hawk wings forces to shara, ended up blowing back in his face. Yes the oaths shortened lives, but they also ensured the white tower stayed stable and became the political force in Randland without needing to resort to might. 
 

In the LOTR Sauron almost won, he came very very close to it. I love WOT but I also acknowledge the weakness in the writing, and the main one is that right the way through the books the first time of reading, I was never once led to believe that the side of light was ever really in any peril, and part of it is that Ishy flaw, the fact that for all the intricate plans the dark puts in place, the good guys end up largely getting lucky, usually literally. There are no real stakes because we know that everything will come good, because the prophesy sorts itself out. 
 

You can try and couch that this happened or that happened, but the fact is, no war of 100 years, no Aiel war, no Rand being born on Dragonmount. And no need for the Dragon, to unify the nations. The hundred year war had to happen in order I make sure the dragon could do what he needed to do. Every one of Ishys success can be tracked directly to the ultimate success of the light, and yes, RJ needed to craft and weave his backstory and figure out how Randland went from the breaking, to stability, to instability and Ishy is a great character to give all that to, but. RJ also shows the problem in starting in the middle of a story. Where as Tolkien had defined all of the past before writing about the present, RJ shows the pitfalls of starting a story and then writing and filling in then backstory as you go. 

 

And trying to insist that ishy somehow instigated all aspects of Seanchan culture, he got unlucky and the Hawkwong forces figured out how to do what the sharan half couldn’t, survive and then thrive. Even his “corrupted” prophesies ended up feeding into the actual prophesy, meaning he was always mean to do what he did just so the Seanchan could return in the right headspace. His main hope was the 2 armies would both be destroyed. 

 

 

The issue is that you believe Ishamael was trying to win The Last Battle. He wasn't, his goal right from the beginning was to break or turn The Dragon so the Dark One could break the Wheel and Ishamael could be free of the never ending cycle he's in.

 

As for rest of your post...it's obvious you're having some comprehension issues and I'm not going to repeat the points I made again just because you skipped, ignored or are being willfully short-sighted of them the first time.

Cheers

Edited September 26, 2023 by Finnssss22

[jaylew]

7 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Yeah, and Danny Ocean isn't the main character of Ocean's Eleven. Give me a break. Ensemble stories still have main characters. This is such a tired excuse, spoonfed directly by the showrunners so they could justify making Nyneave the main character. 

Nynaeve is the main character? Are there people who think that at this point? She's had a lot of screen time but I wouldn't think she'd feel like THE main character to most. I mean, Ishamael and Lanfear aren't messing around in her dreams.

 

I'm mostly a lurker but I've read a bunch of posts about Moraine or Nynaeve being the main characters in this adaptation but I'm not sure that's how viewers are interpreting it. I talked my best friend into watching the show after never being able to convince him to read the books (I kinda regretted that at the end of the 1st season but it's definitely improved) and I asked him who he thought was the main character about a week ago. He basically said, no one really, and that it seemed like GoT in that way. He then said that if he had to pick one it would be Rand and that he thought Moraine was the Eddard Stark of WoT and he had expected her to die at the end of season 1 (he now thinks she's going to die at the end of season 2).

 

 

[Ralph]

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

I am sure you are not alone, but none of your examples happened except the Moiraine one, and I'm not sure how you see diminution of Lan there. two (or three) fades at once are a challenging opponent for anyone, especially at night, and in the books it is considered a tremendous feat when Lan does defeat such much later on

Nynaeve fight two Warders in the tower rather than Matt. - did not happen. Mat is coming. Nynaeve trained with the Warders because she was frustrated with hot being able to Channel. And she did not defeat them at all. 

 

 

Or Nynaeve and Egwene be the heroes of the S1 finale —wiping out the trolloc army —rather than Rand. - did. not happen. I hated that scene not because it was taken from Rand but because it was ridiculous. but it was not N&E, they were just batteries not heroes. Amalisa killed the Trollocs, then herself (for. no reason except not being able to let go) 

 

 

Or to have Avi step in front of Perrin to fight Whitecloaks - did not happen

She did not step in front of Perrin so he would not fight. he, ludicrously, tried to step. in front of her, knowing she was an incredible fighter and knowing if she wasn't he was dead anyway, she stepped up to fight with him, and he contributed a lot to that fight if you watch

[DreadLord31]

7 hours ago, jaylew said:

He then said that if he had to pick one it would be Rand and that he thought Moraine was the Eddard Stark of WoT and he had expected her to die at the end of season 1 (he now thinks she's going to die at the end of season 2).

I would actually Love it if they had the guts to do this — I’m convinced it would take the show from being mediocre to being on par with GoT for popularity 

[DreadLord31]

5 hours ago, Ralph said:

Nynaeve fight two Warders in the tower rather than Matt. - did not happen. Mat is coming. Nynaeve trained with the Warders because she was frustrated with hot being able to Channel. And she did not defeat them at all. 

 

 

Or Nynaeve and Egwene be the heroes of the S1 finale —wiping out the trolloc army —rather than Rand. - did. not happen. I hated that scene not because it was taken from Rand but because it was ridiculous. but it was not N&E, they were just batteries not heroes. Amalisa killed the Trollocs, then herself (for. no reason except not being able to let go) 

 

 

Or to have Avi step in front of Perrin to fight Whitecloaks - did not happen

She did not step in front of Perrin so he would not fight. he, ludicrously, tried to step. in front of her, knowing she was an incredible fighter and knowing if she wasn't he was dead anyway, she stepped up to fight with him, and he contributed a lot to that fight if you watch

You got Ishy level skills at interpreting things you way you want, good on you man. 
 

Ok, so Nynaeve didn’t win. But there was a scene of her training in the WT with two Warders, no such scene of Matt (and in the books he wasn’t fighting Elaynes brothers he was training//bet them he could win & it’s one of his iconic “hell yeah” moments that is very early on and gets you liking Matt. Matt hasn’t had that in the show, yet. 
 

Ok, so you’re arguing the Finale wiping out the trollocs wasn’t a big moment for the girls cause they were just the batteries. Well, you’d be contradicting the showrunner, Rafe, who said they made the choice to give that to Nynaeve and Egwene rather than Rand because they wanted a big payoff for the girls. And that’s the big “oh dang, he’s that powerful” hero moment for Rand early on in the series that tells you why people love & fear the Dragon. 
 

And, I thought the Perrin/Avi fight was ok. The editing wasn’t great. But Avi definitely comes out as the hero in that scene. And, whatever… I’m glad she had an awesome intro. But we’d already seen that Aiel are BA fighters - Perrin is still a side-kick. In the books, Perrin is a beast fighter because of his size/strength right off the bat (and kills a Whitecloak early on - which is way better than killing your DF made-up wife). 
 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by DreadLord31

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Rand using the Eye of the World at Tarwin's Gap was just an arbitrary deus ex machina, to me at least it did not make a lot of sense. I never saw in anyway that it showed he was powerful.

 

Nynaeve and Mat, bear no relation to each other. I thought Nynaeve being so chummy with the warders was a bit weird, but I guess that was meant to be her inroad to Lan and show how uncomfortable she was with the Aes Sedai. Mat has been on a different arc and not had the opportunity to have such a scene as in the book, which has already been used in the origin series (a lot of the context and dialogue anyway) so is unlikely to be used in the same format in the series. This is really grasping at straws to tie these two issues together.

 

And the Aiel are killing machines, Perrin is a farmboy with a blacksmith's muscles and no training whatsoever. Of course Perrin would be playing a lesser role to Aviendha, the fact that he could help at all is hugely impressive and slightly nonsensical, but he does have plot armour. 

 

I think a lot of the unnecessary changes are a bit dodgy, and re-watching the end of season 1 I can only think Mat was meant to have a fairly large role, because so much of it seems so, well, bad and difficult to understand. But when people try so hard to make it seem like every change is somehow aimed at men...

 

Well, my mind is boggled, that anyone can take Perrin, the least likely warrior in the book, with the most questionable skills, and then argue he should be on par with the Aiel at the beginning of the story.

 

Boggled, I tells ya.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

You got Ishy level skills at interpreting things you way you want, good on you man. 
 

Ok, so Nynaeve didn’t win. But there was a scene of her training in the WT with two Warders, no such scene of Matt (and in the books he wasn’t fighting Elaynes brothers he was training//bet them he could win & it’s one of his iconic “hell yeah” moments that is very early on and gets you liking Matt. Matt hasn’t had that in the show, yet. 
 

Ok, so you’re arguing the Finale wiping out the trollocs wasn’t a big moment for the girls cause they were just the batteries. Well, you’d be contradicting the showrunner, Rafe, who said they made the choice to give that to Nynaeve and Egwene rather than Rand because they wanted a big payoff for the girls. And that’s the big “oh dang, he’s that powerful” hero moment for Rand early on in the series that tells you why people love & fear the Dragon. 
 

And, I thought the Perrin/Avi fight was ok. The editing wasn’t great. But Avi definitely comes out as the hero in that scene. And, whatever… I’m glad she had an awesome intro. But we’d already seen that Aiel are BA fighters - Perrin is still a side-kick. In the books, Perrin is a beast fighter because of his size/strength right off the bat (and kills a Whitecloak early on - which is way better than killing your DF made-up wife). 
 

 

funny, because I see your way of seeing it exactly the same way

 

 

Mat is yet to happen, but we have been fairly reliably informed it will happen. and in the books had not yet done much. 

 

he did not say a payoff for the girls, he said to share things out so not ONLY Rand. 

 

 

[Gary Again]

I never really thought of Ishy as a dreamer but that makes a ton of sense. It explains how he could set something into motion that would snowball into his desired effect over time. He also seems to be one of the most comfortable in TAR and makes a lot of use of consistently though the series. He seemed to have the most information out of anyone (maybe except for Herrod Fel) on the function of the universe, ages and recurring battle with the dragon. You could say he got that information from the dark one but this was the reason he went to the dark so it would make sense that he had this understanding before the dark one and there isn't a lot of things that would explain it except dreaming. Foretelling I don't think you can control so you would just get random snippets of things but dreaming as you got more powerful and over a long period of time I'd imagine you are able to start to puzzle out the meaning of reality and existence and he had one of the most complete understanding of how things worked. 

 

I also didn't catch the Ryma using the opposite of healing weaves and breakbone fever but that makes complete sense and I like it a lot. I will say it was just straight up the most brutal use of magic I think I've seen. That was magic with malice and the way she just fixated on that one person that was responsible for killing her warder was also frightening. Bad strategic move but intimidating AF. The whole thing was powerful and to make a second story beat that can stand up emotionally to Egwene was impressive and they fit together so well because with Egwene we see why Ryma is fighting like that which shows Elayne and Nynaeve the stakes for Egwene. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Gary Again

[DreadLord31]

4 hours ago, Ralph said:

funny, because I see your way of seeing it exactly the same way

 

 

Mat is yet to happen, but we have been fairly reliably informed it will happen. and in the books had not yet done much. 

 

he did not say a payoff for the girls, he said to share things out so not ONLY Rand. 

 

 

Which, personally, is what I like about forums like this. And what I would say the show has done the best job with (better than the books even) is to make the Darkfriends perspectives and reasons believable/relatable. 

So I appreciate opposite perspectives. 
Im curious then: show wise only - 

Do you think that the general audience likes Rand, Lan, Perrin, or Matt 

more than

Lanfear, Liandrin, Nynaeve, or Egwene?? 
 

I, personally, think that they’ve done a poor job with all the boys … y’all seem to be arguing that - that’s acceptable because it’ll get better… but I’d be curious what (in the show) are the moments so far that would make you think any of the men in the show are heroic? 

Edited September 26, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Elder_Haman]

26 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

I’d be curious what (in the show) are the moments so far that would make you think any of the men in the show are heroic? 

I need you to define your terms. What do you mean by "heroic"? And do you differentiate it from nobility (not the economic kind, the moral kind)?  

[Windigo]

7 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

I would actually Love it if they had the guts to do this — I’m convinced it would take the show from being mediocre to being on par with GoT for popularity 

I don't know I think killing off characters is not why GoT was as popular as it was. That had more to do with it basically being a historical drama /soap opera with a little magic and dragons thrown in. 

[Windigo]

7 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Ok, so Nynaeve didn’t win. But there was a scene of her training in the WT with two Warders, no such scene of Matt (and in the books he wasn’t fighting Elaynes brothers he was training//bet them he could win & it’s one of his iconic “hell yeah” moments that is very early on and gets you liking Matt. Matt hasn’t had that in the show, yet. 

Actually the fight with Matt vs Galad and Gawwyn was in the middle of book 3 The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 24 (of 56) , so there was a chance we could have gotten it in season 2, but also could be season 3 and still align with the books timelines.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

Which, personally, is what I like about forums like this. And what I would say the show has done the best job with (better than the books even) is to make the Darkfriends perspectives and reasons believable/relatable. 

So I appreciate opposite perspectives. 
Im curious then: show wise only - 

Do you think that the general audience likes Rand, Lan, Perrin, or Matt 

more than

Lanfear, Liandrin, Nynaeve, or Egwene?? 
 

I, personally, think that they’ve done a poor job with all the boys … y’all seem to be arguing that - that’s acceptable because it’ll get better… but I’d be curious what (in the show) are the moments so far that would make you think any of the men in the show are heroic? 

I don't know what the general audience thinks, but personally I like them and see their development very much. true nothing "heroic" but that is just like the books at this stage, the only exception was Rand at tarwin's gap which it seems I was not the only one to find jarring and not fitting with the whole series

 

nyn and eg in the books had been through far more emotionally affecting experiences than the boys. the Arches and the damane episode will cause anyone to relate with their journey more, but not to "like" them more. but again, like the books and no reason to suspect misandrism

[Finnssss22]

47 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Which, personally, is what I like about forums like this. And what I would say the show has done the best job with (better than the books even) is to make the Darkfriends perspectives and reasons believable/relatable. 

So I appreciate opposite perspectives. 
Im curious then: show wise only - 

Do you think that the general audience likes Rand, Lan, Perrin, or Matt 

more than

Lanfear, Liandrin, Nynaeve, or Egwene?? 
 

I, personally, think that they’ve done a poor job with all the boys … y’all seem to be arguing that - that’s acceptable because it’ll get better… but I’d be curious what (in the show) are the moments so far that would make you think any of the men in the show are heroic? 

 

The problem with the boys is for the first 3 books is Mat isn't even supposed to be that likeable and not really even a full character until after his healing in tDR, Perrin is a dear in the headlights and Rand is basically a lost puppy for 1&2 and then a runaway puppy in book 3.

Book 4 is when the 3 of them start to branch out and really step into their own shoes.

 

I mean don't get me wrong, I have complaints about the show but I also always had complaints about books 1-3 as well. There's a lot of wonky stuff in books 1-3 that we later just had to file away as early bookisms, never to be discussed again lol.

 

I knew and said going in that the show was going to have to do what they could with books 1-3, eliminate the wonky stuff, build the World, lay out some history and explore the characters enough so everything is ready to ramp up into the book 4 and beyond material because that's when the series really goes next level.

[SBroc]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:53 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Could set up an interesting scene if Rand learns how to see the weaves and Siuan has to talk Rand through how to go about untying them. 

Could that be the real reason or one of them that Lanfear wants Rand away from Mor.  So he can't fix her link to the OP

[Agitel]

Lanfear doesn't like to share.

[Ralph]

13 minutes ago, SBroc said:

Could that be the real reason or one of them that Lanfear wants Rand away from Mor.  So he can't fix her link to the OP

nice idea

 

I thought just to make M even more desperate. as per Ishy's thoughts

[Windigo]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

Im curious then: show wise only - 

Do you think that the general audience likes Rand, Lan, Perrin, or Matt 

more than

Lanfear, Liandrin, Nynaeve, or Egwene?? 

I do not think so, but then who was liked or not certainly did not break down the same way in the books either. The show I think has made all 5 EF characters more likeable. 
I am not hearing from show only watchers the same hate for any of them, that I have heard for decades about many of the characters in the books.

I think this is one main difference between books and shows (Tv/movies ...) 
No matter how well written most people reading books would not say that they like Lanfear, or Elaida We might talk about how that character was written well, or we like the character arc.

In shows it appears people are more likely to like or not like someone, not based on the story and arc but how well they are portraying it. I do not like Renna, or Liandrin, but I can say that the actors playing them have done a fantastic job. 
Part of the issue is in books we get limited POV, so I think readers tend to like the characters based on the POV of the narrator. We are no longer seeing the world primarily through Rand's eyes. (Book 1 is almost all Rand POV, Book 2 starts to add a couple more POV's, it is not until book 3 that we really start to get the ensemble POV's ) 

 

[Finnssss22]

1 hour ago, SBroc said:

Could that be the real reason or one of them that Lanfear wants Rand away from Mor.  So he can't fix her link to the OP

I think it's simply that they want Rand as isolated as possible. I don't think their goals with Rand are any different than in books. They want to turn or break him. Ishamael already alluded to this when he asked Lanfear what will happen to Rand when he sees his friends being screwed over. She responded it will break him.

 

[Finnssss22]

1 hour ago, Windigo said:

I do not think so, but then who was liked or not certainly did not break down the same way in the books either. The show I think has made all 5 EF characters more likeable. 
I am not hearing from show only watchers the same hate for any of them, that I have heard for decades about many of the characters in the books.

I think this is one main difference between books and shows (Tv/movies ...) 
No matter how well written most people reading books would not say that they like Lanfear, or Elaida We might talk about how that character was written well, or we like the character arc.

In shows it appears people are more likely to like or not like someone, not based on the story and arc but how well they are portraying it. I do not like Renna, or Liandrin, but I can say that the actors playing them have done a fantastic job. 
Part of the issue is in books we get limited POV, so I think readers tend to like the characters based on the POV of the narrator. We are no longer seeing the world primarily through Rand's eyes. (Book 1 is almost all Rand POV, Book 2 starts to add a couple more POV's, it is not until book 3 that we really start to get the ensemble POV's ) 

 

 

Yeah for all the willingness to point out the bad, there should also be some acknowledgement to the good. 

Let's be honest here, the crossing of Lanfear with Semirhage is phenomenal. This version of Lanfear is much nastier and a hell of a lot scarier than either were on their own in the books. I've said this before, this Lanfear scares the shit outa me.

Then we have Liandrin who went from being a 2d villain with little depth that as reader you didn't care about at all other than wanting to see her get what was coming to her to being this humanized deep character that you both hate and sympathize with.

Of course kudos to both actresses for knocking both these roles out of the park.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Windigo]

1 minute ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

For all the willingness to point out the bad, there should also be some acknowledgement to the good. 

Let's be honest here, the crossing of Lanfear with Semirhage is phenomenal. This version of Lanfear is much nastier and a hell of a lot scarier than either were on their own in the books. I've said this before, this Lanfear scares the shit outa me.

Then we have Liandrin who went from being a 2d villain with little depth that as reader you didn't care about at all other than wanting to see her get what was coming to her to being this humanized deep character that you both hate and sympathize with.

Of course kudos to both actresses for knocking both these roles out of the park.

Yes the actress is doing a phenominal job, but I still have no sympathy for her. I still don't like Liandrin, I have yet to see any redeeming qualities humanizing her other than she had a shitty life as a kid and young girl/woman. 
It is still evil to have bargained with the shadow for her son's life for her own selfish benefit. The idea that he an individual person "is the only thing that is mine", is selfish.  If she truly loved her son and it was about saving his life she would not turn away and would fight Lanfear even knowing she would die. 
I think she set up Nynaeve to follow her and that none of her supposed caring for her son or Nynaeve is real.

[Finnssss22]

10 minutes ago, Windigo said:

Yes the actress is doing a phenominal job, but I still have no sympathy for her. I still don't like Liandrin, I have yet to see any redeeming qualities humanizing her other than she had a shitty life as a kid and young girl/woman. 
It is still evil to have bargained with the shadow for her son's life for her own selfish benefit. The idea that he an individual person "is the only thing that is mine", is selfish.  If she truly loved her son and it was about saving his life she would not turn away and would fight Lanfear even knowing she would die. 
I think she set up Nynaeve to follow her and that none of her supposed caring for her son or Nynaeve is real.

 

Fair enough but she invokes a lot more from you than simply wanting her to get punched in her pouty lips lol

That you even have to quantify that you think she's faking it and don't believe her is a massive upgrade from the book version. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Finnssss22