Would it matter if Tear happens after the events of TSR? (warning book spoilers)

[Scarloc99]

So the assumption has always been that Tear will take place at the start of season 3 and then the story will shift into TSR, but I have been thinking about alternative ways of telling the story. 

Book's 2 and 3 have a lot of repetition about them, the fight with Ishy is one, but another is the fact that end of TGH Rand is proclaimed in the sky (not got the book to hand but i am sure the epilogue says that people in the land heard tale of the dragon fighting in the sky and knew he had returned) and then in book 3 he again does a thing to proclaim his return. Callandor then plays no part in the story until much later. 

Now if you moved Tear to after the events in the 3 fold land, the people of the dragon come with the dragon and help take tear and claim the word that is not a sword, you don't drastically impact the overall flow of the story, but you do now stop the repetition of books 2 and 3 while still having that key moment with what is a major story mcguffin. You also don't have him grab the sword and then leave it alone for a whole season to be forgotten by viewers. 

The only other key event that happens in tear that would need to happen is the first doorway, but you could move this anywhere. We know that Turok is a collector of all things one power like so it would not be a stretch to have the doorway in his possession. The boys go through and it helps tell Rand what he needs to do next. 

[Mirefox]

In generally agree, except for the motivation problem.  Right now, Rand knows next to nothing about the Aiel and likely fears them as much as Trollocs based on his misunderstandings.  Without Tear and the doorway, why would he go to the Wastes?

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Without Tear and the doorway, why would he go to the Wastes?

The Aiel are seeking the Car'a'carn, and they just saw a Dragon flying in the sky? 😛 

[nsmallw]

Rand has to go to the Waste. So much of his character arc really develops there, 

especially considering at this point I don't fee the show has really focused on Rand sufficiently.

I know it's an ensemble show but other characters have more development at least to me. 

[mogi68]

Quote

Without Tear and the doorway, why would he go to the Wastes?

 

He needs an army, and thanks to Aviendha he will discover that the Aiel are searching for him

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, Mirefox said:

In generally agree, except for the motivation problem.  Right now, Rand knows next to nothing about the Aiel and likely fears them as much as Trollocs based on his misunderstandings.  Without Tear and the doorway, why would he go to the Wastes?

So I pointed that out, the doorway does not need to be in Tear to push the story forwards, Tarok could have it in his possession, having "liberated it", or it could be somewhere else. The doorway not being in tear does not make Tear worse, or weaker. 

[Samt]

Frankly, you can reorder practically anything in the books without significant difficulty if you don't really think anything about the story is actually important. And I struggle to understand what the show creators think is actually the immutable part of the story.  The real question is what is the artistic merit in moving things around?  Too much asking "can we?" and not enough asking "should we?"

[Skipp]

9 hours ago, Samt said:

Frankly, you can reorder practically anything in the books without significant difficulty if you don't really think anything about the story is actually important. And I struggle to understand what the show creators think is actually the immutable part of the story.  The real question is what is the artistic merit in moving things around?  Too much asking "can we?" and not enough asking "should we?"

Probably more how can we fit 15 books worth of content into, possibly, only 8 seasons of 8 episodes. Along with making each season a self contained story.

[Samt]

20 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Probably more how can we fit 15 books worth of content into, possibly, only 8 seasons of 8 episodes. Along with making each season a self contained story.

Why do people still believe this?  The propensity of the show creators to continuously add self-contained plots that don't in any way condense existing parts of the books makes the contention that they are making changes to meet runtime demands simply preposterous.  

 

And why would each season be a self-contained story?  That's an impossible ask that they haven't achieved anyways.  

[Elder_Haman]

46 minutes ago, Samt said:

The propensity of the show creators to continuously add self-contained plots that don't in any way condense existing parts of the books makes the contention that they are making changes to meet runtime demands simply preposterous

Sorry. But this is just wrong. Adding “self-contained plots” helps the writers with exposition and character development across the whole series. 
 

As written, the books are not filmable. I don’t know why that’s difficult to understand. 

[Samt]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Sorry. But this is just wrong. Adding “self-contained plots” helps the writers with exposition and character development across the whole series. 
 

As written, the books are not filmable. I don’t know why that’s difficult to understand. 

It's difficult to understand because it's not true.

[Elder_Haman]

Filming the books as written would be utter garbage. How are you going to film all of the things that happen in Rand’s head?  Voiceovers? World building via exposition dumps?

[Samt]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Filming the books as written would be utter garbage. How are you going to film all of the things that happen in Rand’s head?  Voiceovers? World building via exposition dumps?

No, you can't literally just film the book.  It's a book.

 

That doesn't mean you have to add Stepin, and Layla, and unpowered Moiraine, and confused Lan, and abuser Abel, and Min and Matt jailbreak, and mental hospital Rand and all of these other additions.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

37 minutes ago, Samt said:

No, you can't literally just film the book.  It's a book.

 

That doesn't mean you have to add Stepin, and Layla, and unpowered Moiraine, and confused Lan, and abuser Abel, and Min and Matt jailbreak, and mental hospital Rand and all of these other additions.  

No, no you don't.

 

But you do have to think of ways that you can condense story lines, how you can have visual sequences that convey written information, how you can flesh out character motivations and to best let your abridged story flow.

 

This means that there will be changes, and it is not a question of the changes being intrinsically bad or good, it is a question of what they bring or take away. Too many present changes as being bad per se whereas there are going to be changes, period. 

 

Especially season 1, in the book we were left guessing what was going on. Why were the trollocs there? What was the real story about the Aes Sedai? Lots of features were brought in, first the unreliable narrator of the folk tales, and even Thom claiming the Dragon tried to break the Dark One out of his prison. Then you learn about the OP through Egwene, then about the Dragon through stories about Logain, and so on, leaving a first time reader to organically learn the background. In the show, you could not have that kind of mystery about what the show was about. It had to be in the media, discussed and publicized. And that meant there had to be wholesale changes. And I think personally that it is very reassuring how well the story has been brought back on track, rather than let it run off on changes from season 1. But that is just me, apparently.

 

Edit:  like for instance, looks like to me everyone can see weaves in the show, because the viewer can see them. It would confusing to try and show character's POV and that they cannot see somethings that others can which is easy in books. So that would mean you could not have Rand channeling in front of anyone like he did in the books with Bela, and that could have implications for the story, but unless it is really important, it would take too much dialogue to explain that not all characters can see the snazzy special effects. And that kind of change can have big implications, especially taken in context with other changes and that is why whole sections could be changed for example. Not sure exactly what point I was trying to make with the edit, but meh, who cares.

Edited September 20, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Cipher]

On 9/19/2023 at 6:01 AM, SinisterDeath said:

The Aiel are seeking the Car'a'carn, and they just saw a Dragon flying in the sky? 😛 

The Aiel aren’t sold that Rand is the Car’a’carn until the proclamation showing his markings.  Hard pill for me to swallow if they just accept him before all that.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Cipher said:

The Aiel aren’t sold that Rand is the Car’a’carn until the proclamation showing his markings.  Hard pill for me to swallow if they just accept him before all that.

That's why they bring him to Rhuidean.

He doesn't get his Markings until he goes to Rhuidean.

You asked why would he go to the Wastes?

They're looking for the Car'a'carn. I made a quip that they saw a dragon in the sky.
We don't know where the "stone" comes into the TV show as of yet as that's part of the Prophecy of the Car'a'carn. 

We know that they are camped out in Falme in the show.

*edit*

[Cipher]

4 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

That's why they bring him to Rhuidean.
 

Ok, if there is group of Aiel who follow the prophecies and bring him.  Have some doubters and nay sayers and give us Rhuarc and Melanie to lead Rand there.

 

Aviendha as one of the scouts—as Thee scout who finds him.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Cipher

[SinisterDeath]

@Cipher incase you missed it, I did edit my post with some additional thoughts.

[Samt]

38 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

No, no you don't.

 

But you do have to think of ways that you can condense story lines, how you can have visual sequences that convey written information, how you can flesh out character motivations and to best let your abridged story flow.

 

This means that there will be changes, and it is not a question of the changes being intrinsically bad or good, it is a question of what they bring or take away. Too many present changes as being bad per se whereas there are going to be changes, period. 

 

Especially season 1, in the book we were left guessing what was going on. Why were the trollocs there? What was the real story about the Aes Sedai? Lots of features were brought in, first the unreliable narrator of the folk tales, and even Thom claiming the Dragon tried to break the Dark One out of his prison. Then you learn about the OP through Egwene, then about the Dragon through stories about Logain, and so on, leaving a first time reader to organically learn the background. In the show, you could not have that kind of mystery about what the show was about. It had to be in the media, discussed and publicized. And that meant there had to be wholesale changes. And I think personally that it is very reassuring how well the story has been brought back on track, rather than let it run off on changes from season 1. But that is just me, apparently.

 

Edit:  like for instance, looks like to me everyone can see weaves in the show, because the viewer can see them. It would confusing to try and show character's POV and that they cannot see somethings that others can which is easy in books. So that would mean you could not have Rand channeling in front of anyone like he did in the books with Bela, and that could have implications for the story, but unless it is really important, it would take too much dialogue to explain that not all characters can see the snazzy special effects. And that kind of change can have big implications, especially taken in context with other changes and that is why whole sections could be changed for example. Not sure exactly what point I was trying to make with the edit, but meh, who cares.

Yes, some changes are needed.  In particular, a lot of things will need to be combined, condensed, and streamlined.  My original point is that the complaint that there is not enough runtime is inconsistent with the fact that they are adding lots of things that don't condense or streamline the books.  They are just additional content.  

 

I'd add that the aversion to exposition is a little too strong, in my opinion.  Of course, we don't just want someone literally talking to the audience for the whole show.  But fantasy in particular needs some amount of exposition to really work on the screen.  You have to explain things about the world and lore in ways that you don't have to when the story is set in the real world.  It just needs to be good exposition that is accompanied by good visuals or fits organically into the story in ways that also tell us about the characters.  

[Cipher]

19 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

So I pointed that out, the doorway does not need to be in Tear to push the story forwards, Tarok could have it in his possession, having "liberated it", or it could be somewhere else. The doorway not being in tear does not make Tear worse, or weaker. 

Technically Rand doesn’t even need the door to end up in the waste.  We could just have Aviendha and a quote of some prophecy from Moiraine and off to the waste we go.

 

Instead of two trips through doorways for Mat he gets one where he gets both prophecy and his spear and medallion.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Cipher

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, Cipher said:

Technically Rand doesn’t even need the door to end up in the waste.  We could just have Aviendha and a quote of some prophecy from Moiraine and off to the waste we go.

That seems like such weak motivation, though.

 

In an interview that Jordan gives at the end of some of his audiobooks he explicitly discusses how the fantasy trope of someone showing up to a village, quoting a prophecy or something, then having the villagers leave with him just doesn't ring true.

 

Granted, Rand is a little past that stage, but he still needs more than some people saying "you fulfill prophecy, come with us."  Plus, at this point the Aiel are still like boogeymen to Rand, who really only knows of them from stories.  There's got to be something more than just "come with us."

 

Maybe they tell him about his mom?

[Cipher]

Just now, Mirefox said:

That seems like such weak motivation, though.

 

In an interview that Jordan gives at the end of some of his audiobooks he explicitly discusses how the fantasy trope of someone showing up to a village, quoting a prophecy or something, then having the villagers leave with him just doesn't ring true.

 

Granted, Rand is a little past that stage, but he still needs more than some people saying "you fulfill prophecy, come with us."  Plus, at this point the Aiel are still like boogeymen to Rand, who really only knows of them from stories.  There's got to be something more than just "come with us."

 

Maybe they tell him about his mom?

I am inspired by Rafe to just invent random motivations for our characters.  Can’t be worse than some of his stuff.

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, Cipher said:

I am inspired by Rafe to just invent random motivations for our characters.  Can’t be worse than some of his stuff.

 

Based on last episode, Rafe seems to think the best way to get someone from point A to point B is to knock them unconscious and sidestep the irksome "motivation" thing entirely.  Maybe Avi can bop Rand on the head Three Stooges-style and he can just wake up in the Wastes in Season 3...

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

18 minutes ago, Samt said:

Yes, some changes are needed.  In particular, a lot of things will need to be combined, condensed, and streamlined.  My original point is that the complaint that there is not enough runtime is inconsistent with the fact that they are adding lots of things that don't condense or streamline the books.  They are just additional content.  

 

I'd add that the aversion to exposition is a little too strong, in my opinion.  Of course, we don't just want someone literally talking to the audience for the whole show.  But fantasy in particular needs some amount of exposition to really work on the screen.  You have to explain things about the world and lore in ways that you don't have to when the story is set in the real world.  It just needs to be good exposition that is accompanied by good visuals or fits organically into the story in ways that also tell us about the characters.  

My point is that it is not as simple as cutting a scene here, or merging two characters there. You also have to at least consider adding new content that can achieve the same goals more succinctly. You also have the issue that there might two scenes or plotlines that you want to keep and you have to have something that bridges them.

 

What I mean is that additions are not by definition bad, it depends on how much plot carrying weight they assume, what they bring visually, what they do to the tone, etc.,. and of course, extremely important is how entertaining it is. 

 

For example, I am rewatching season 1 mostly as I really don't get the whole Steppin interlude. It seems to derail Lan's arc, rather than complementing it, and seems unnecessary. But even if my opinion is right, that does not mean such an addition has to be a bad thing. Abridging the story does not just mean cutting things out. And apparently lots of people really liked the Steppin bit, and at the end of the day, that is the whole point. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

No, you can't literally just film the book.  It's a book.

 

That doesn't mean you have to add Stepin, and Layla, and unpowered Moiraine, and confused Lan, and abuser Abel, and Min and Matt jailbreak, and mental hospital Rand and all of these other additions.  

Neither does that mean that adding them is a poor choice. For me, they've done a fair job of bringing the story to the screen, with the work improving noticeably in S2.