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Would it matter if Tear happens after the events of TSR? (warning book spoilers)


Scarloc99

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32 minutes ago, Samt said:

My original point is that the complaint that there is not enough runtime is inconsistent with the fact that they are adding lots of things that don't condense or streamline the books.  They are just additional content.  

But it's not. It's using those alternate story lines to tell other parts of the story in a way that is dramatized instead of given via exposition. Stepin to explain the bond, Layla to explain Perrin's caution, etc. It's addition by subtraction and meant to make the worldbuilding seem organic rather than a bunch of lore dump via exposition.

 

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28 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

That seems like such weak motivation, though.

 

In an interview that Jordan gives at the end of some of his audiobooks he explicitly discusses how the fantasy trope of someone showing up to a village, quoting a prophecy or something, then having the villagers leave with him just doesn't ring true.

 

Granted, Rand is a little past that stage, but he still needs more than some people saying "you fulfill prophecy, come with us."  Plus, at this point the Aiel are still like boogeymen to Rand, who really only knows of them from stories.  There's got to be something more than just "come with us."

 

Maybe they tell him about his mom?

He is going to go try to find his roots.

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1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

But it's not. It's using those alternate story lines to tell other parts of the story in a way that is dramatized instead of given via exposition. Stepin to explain the bond, Layla to explain Perrin's caution, etc. It's addition by subtraction and meant to make the worldbuilding seem organic rather than a bunch of lore dump via exposition.

 

 

On the flip side, though, they could show it in ways that are closer to the books while achieving nearly the same effect.

 

Yes, the warder bond takes a little exposition but it can be hinted at in a few sentences.  Then keep Lan and Moiraine close instead of whatever we have now.  Then, if we need to explain anything n the future, it can be visualized easily.  I'm being a little vague here to avoid book spoilers.

 

Perrin could easily have lost control and killed a whitecloak, which would have a) given Valda a better reason to imprison Perrin and Eg other than it being the second time he's seen them (Valda's words, not mine), it might have given Valda more of a reason to fear Perrin than yellow eyes (Valda's reaction was a bit silly), and it would could easily have given us the same character arc for Perrin.

 

I know I'm a big contrarian and don't hide my displeasure with the show, but I do understand that changing mediums requires making some changes and I'm not always adamantly against them.  A recent example is Avi in the cage.  That makes sense as a method of both condensing the story and tying it to the book.  Sometimes, though, it seems like Jordan offered good setup and the writers seemed to say "we can do this better."  Like, "In the books he kills a whitecloak, but how about if we make him kills his wife?"  That kind of stuff seems unnecessary when the blueprint for how to do it is in front of them.

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15 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

On the flip side, though, they could show it in ways that are closer to the books while achieving nearly the same effect.

 

Yes, the warder bond takes a little exposition but it can be hinted at in a few sentences.  Then keep Lan and Moiraine close instead of whatever we have now.  Then, if we need to explain anything n the future, it can be visualized easily.  I'm being a little vague here to avoid book spoilers.

 

Perrin could easily have lost control and killed a whitecloak, which would have a) given Valda a better reason to imprison Perrin and Eg other than it being the second time he's seen them (Valda's words, not mine), it might have given Valda more of a reason to fear Perrin than yellow eyes (Valda's reaction was a bit silly), and it would could easily have given us the same character arc for Perrin.

 

I know I'm a big contrarian and don't hide my displeasure with the show, but I do understand that changing mediums requires making some changes and I'm not always adamantly against them.  A recent example is Avi in the cage.  That makes sense as a method of both condensing the story and tying it to the book.  Sometimes, though, it seems like Jordan offered good setup and the writers seemed to say "we can do this better."  Like, "In the books he kills a whitecloak, but how about if we make him kills his wife?"  That kind of stuff seems unnecessary when the blueprint for how to do it is in front of them.

I think you and I are mostly in agreement about where the writing has been weak. I definitely don't like the changes to Lan and I didn't really love the "Perrin kills his wife" thing. (Though in retrospect, it did give me a very visceral understanding of his hesitation to fight.) 

 

I think you agree with me that the writing in S2 has been better. I think we just have a different tolerance level for the changes.

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1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think you and I are mostly in agreement about where the writing has been weak. I definitely don't like the changes to Lan and I didn't really love the "Perrin kills his wife" thing. (Though in retrospect, it did give me a very visceral understanding of his hesitation to fight.) 

 

I think you agree with me that the writing in S2 has been better. I think we just have a different tolerance level for the changes.

 

Yes, I agree that the writing has been a bit better but I still have a lot of issues with the writing in general, apart from changes from the book.  I'll even be generous an acknowledge that I understand there were issues with development and the cast in Season 1 due to COVID.  I continue to watch and everything can be redeemed if they clean it up a bit but I'm also going to say that out of all the book to TV adaptations I've ever seen, this one is easily the biggest gut punch to me.  I'll give them time, and they are putting some of the pieces in place to get us near where we should be, but I'm not a confident viewer, that's for sure.

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19 hours ago, Samt said:

Yes, some changes are needed.  In particular, a lot of things will need to be combined, condensed, and streamlined.  My original point is that the complaint that there is not enough runtime is inconsistent with the fact that they are adding lots of things that don't condense or streamline the books.  They are just additional content.  

 

I'd add that the aversion to exposition is a little too strong, in my opinion.  Of course, we don't just want someone literally talking to the audience for the whole show.  But fantasy in particular needs some amount of exposition to really work on the screen.  You have to explain things about the world and lore in ways that you don't have to when the story is set in the real world.  It just needs to be good exposition that is accompanied by good visuals or fits organically into the story in ways that also tell us about the characters.  

really disagree with the exposition comment, no story needs loads of exposition to explain thigs ot the audience, episode 5 showed this, some really key story and lore points where brought across organically in conversations and interactions that made sense. 

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This is an interesting question.

 

But I think Rhuidean is the more important plot point. Without the journey to the Three Fold Land, the story loses too much - not just in terms of Rand's development, but for the sake of Mat, Moiraine, Aviendha. 

 

TDR is more important for Perrin, but it looks like they've decided to accelerate his development this season.

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I don't think Rand will be "twice and twice" marked, but just "twice."

 

I don't think there will be 2 red twisted doors, only 1. The one in Tear is really just for Mat, and he's already gotten what he needed there, aside from some mysterious prophecy, from the horn power-up. 

 

The other people who go into the Tear doorway don't need to do so in order to advance the plot in any meaningful way. One stone doorway is fine. I am curious how they are going to get Logain to the Waste to train Rand in Asmo's place, and if Lanfear and Moiraine will have any more interesting relationship building time before she gets yeeted through the door. I also suspect the door-yeeting will happen in Rhuidean, not Cairhien. 

 

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I actually like this idea.  Rand leads the Aiel over the Spine of the world and uses them to force the Westlands to unite under him and they are met with opposition who consider him to be a false dragon and the season ends with him and the aiel taking the stone.

 

Since Ishy is dead, one of the high lords of Tear who lead the war effort against him can be revealed as one of the other male forsaken and be killed by Rand.  Maybe Aganor and Bathamiel posing as high lords since they are both expendable.  They can take ishy's place as the ones who were planning to steal Calandor once Rand took it.

 

There wouldn't need to be any actual changes to the story for this, just changing around the timeline.

Edited by Dagon Thyne
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  • 2 weeks later...

I think one of the problems with combining the books in the way that they have is that in the show Rand is the dragon only because Moiraine thinks he is the dragon.  He hasn't really fulfilled any prophecies beyond Moiraine just making sure that he fulfills those prophecies.  By removing Callandor and making the battle in the sky into a dragon illusion that Moiraine created, they have made it so Rand never actually does something that proves he is the dragon.  

Show Rand definitely feels like a Katniss style puppet rather than an actual hero of his own story.  

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4 hours ago, Samt said:

I think one of the problems with combining the books in the way that they have is that in the show Rand is the dragon only because Moiraine thinks he is the dragon.  He hasn't really fulfilled any prophecies beyond Moiraine just making sure that he fulfills those prophecies.  By removing Callandor and making the battle in the sky into a dragon illusion that Moiraine created, they have made it so Rand never actually does something that proves he is the dragon.  

Show Rand definitely feels like a Katniss style puppet rather than an actual hero of his own story.  

 

who won the prophesied battle in the sky then? 

 

Ishy (and Lanfear) made sure he did, but it can only be Rand

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5 hours ago, Samt said:

I think one of the problems with combining the books in the way that they have is that in the show Rand is the dragon only because Moiraine thinks he is the dragon.  He hasn't really fulfilled any prophecies beyond Moiraine just making sure that he fulfills those prophecies.  By removing Callandor and making the battle in the sky into a dragon illusion that Moiraine created, they have made it so Rand never actually does something that proves he is the dragon.  

Show Rand definitely feels like a Katniss style puppet rather than an actual hero of his own story.  

I mean no, Rand was teh Dragon because he was the Dragon the prophesies where to prove to the rest of teh world he really was the Dragon and the last battle was coming. Moiraine could not have found another male channeler and made them dragon at all. 

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4 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean no, Rand was teh Dragon because he was the Dragon the prophesies where to prove to the rest of teh world he really was the Dragon and the last battle was coming. Moiraine could not have found another male channeler and made them dragon at all. 

I don't think that is what @Samt means. I think he means there have been no signs that Rand is the Dragon of prophecy. Or very little.

 

But I think with the forsaken taking such a personal interest in Rand in show already, I don't think that lack of prophecy fulfillment will make someone who has not read the book think there is any doubt he is Lews Therin Telamon reborn.

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I am okay with that as a trope subversion, actually, although I wouldn't give Rafe & Co credit for doing it on purpose unless they give us a scene (maybe next season, before Rhuidian?) where Rand goes off on Moi (or Lanfear) because they keep taking away his agency and forcing him through the prophesy checklist. Then he completely bails on them (or maybe they both fall through a doorway?) and he does something on his own. 

 

Who are we kidding...Eggy will probably save Mat from darkhounds, re-learn Traveling, and break Rand out of the Red Aja box. 

 

I expect they will keep Siuan around for most/all of S3. Elaida will be introduced early, they will clash all season. Maybe they push the Tower coup back a bit, and skip the whole "Little Tower" plotline entirely, and Siuan accidentally allies with the Black Ajah via Liandrin when they try to capture/control Rand. We certainly got hints of "Tower wants the Dragon under lock and key" from S2. 

 

S3 has to be mostly the Waste for Rand, Mat and Eggy. Perrin will do some version of Emonds Field. 

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1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I don't think that is what @Samt means. I think he means there have been no signs that Rand is the Dragon of prophecy. Or very little.

 

But I think with the forsaken taking such a personal interest in Rand in show already, I don't think that lack of prophecy fulfillment will make someone who has not read the book think there is any doubt he is Lews Therin Telamon reborn.

Yeah, the only prophecy that Rand has fulfilled so far that wasn't "rigged" was the being born on the slopes of Dragonmount. But between that and Min's vision of Rand and his Dad I think it is pretty clear to audiences.

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4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Yeah, the only prophecy that Rand has fulfilled so far that wasn't "rigged" was the being born on the slopes of Dragonmount. But between that and Min's vision of Rand and his Dad I think it is pretty clear to audiences.

I'm not saying that it's not clear.  Just that it has the element of Moiraine and the forsaken doing things because the prophecy says that it is supposed to happen.  It gives the feeling that the dragon is a passenger and marionette figurehead rather than a prophesied leader and hero that the pattern created in order to fight the shadow and save the forces of light.  

 

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Egwene did re-learn Traveling in the books.

I was going to say this.  In the books, Traveling for men and women are very different weaves.  Egwene deduces how to travel for women through her knowlegde of Tel.  Rand learns it for men although I can't remember if it is through recovered memories, something he observes the forsaken do, or something that Asmodean teaches him.  

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14 hours ago, BenPatient said:

I am okay with that as a trope subversion, actually, although I wouldn't give Rafe & Co credit for doing it on purpose unless they give us a scene (maybe next season, before Rhuidian?) where Rand goes off on Moi (or Lanfear) because they keep taking away his agency and forcing him through the prophesy checklist. Then he completely bails on them (or maybe they both fall through a doorway?) and he does something on his own. 

 

Who are we kidding...Eggy will probably save Mat from darkhounds, re-learn Traveling, and break Rand out of the Red Aja box. 

 

I expect they will keep Siuan around for most/all of S3. Elaida will be introduced early, they will clash all season. Maybe they push the Tower coup back a bit, and skip the whole "Little Tower" plotline entirely, and Siuan accidentally allies with the Black Ajah via Liandrin when they try to capture/control Rand. We certainly got hints of "Tower wants the Dragon under lock and key" from S2. 

 

S3 has to be mostly the Waste for Rand, Mat and Eggy. Perrin will do some version of Emonds Field. 

I mean in the books Eggy does re learn traveling 

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14 hours ago, BenPatient said:

I am okay with that as a trope subversion, actually, although I wouldn't give Rafe & Co credit for doing it on purpose unless they give us a scene (maybe next season, before Rhuidian?) where Rand goes off on Moi (or Lanfear) because they keep taking away his agency and forcing him through the prophesy checklist. Then he completely bails on them (or maybe they both fall through a doorway?) and he does something on his own. 

 

Who are we kidding...Eggy will probably save Mat from darkhounds, re-learn Traveling, and break Rand out of the Red Aja box. 

 

I expect they will keep Siuan around for most/all of S3. Elaida will be introduced early, they will clash all season. Maybe they push the Tower coup back a bit, and skip the whole "Little Tower" plotline entirely, and Siuan accidentally allies with the Black Ajah via Liandrin when they try to capture/control Rand. We certainly got hints of "Tower wants the Dragon under lock and key" from S2. 

 

S3 has to be mostly the Waste for Rand, Mat and Eggy. Perrin will do some version of Emonds Field. 

There is no “Liandrin being a secret” now, everyone knows 

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14 hours ago, Samt said:

I'm not saying that it's not clear.  Just that it has the element of Moiraine and the forsaken doing things because the prophecy says that it is supposed to happen.  It gives the feeling that the dragon is a passenger and marionette figurehead rather than a prophesied leader and hero that the pattern created in order to fight the shadow and save the forces of light.  

 

I was going to say this.  In the books, Traveling for men and women are very different weaves.  Egwene deduces how to travel for women through her knowlegde of Tel.  Rand learns it for men although I can't remember if it is through recovered memories, something he observes the forsaken do, or something that Asmodean teaches him.  

I think Asmodean teaches him to skim 

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