WoT Season 2 Episode 4: Daughter of the Night

[VooDooNut]

There's something about the ginormous number of plot threads in this episode (boosted by previous episodes) that make me want to keep re-watching it for details.

 

On a second re-watch I really appreciated the Moiraine/Anvere scene. The opening to it solidifies Anvere's mixture of envy/stubbornness/independence/weariness in a really efficient way for such a short scene.

Edited September 12, 2023 by VooDooNut

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

12 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Moiraine/Alviairin

Anvere Damodred - Alviairin is a different character (book - not yet seen in TV series).

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

The principle objection to the end of the Liandrin / 3 girls action in this episode is that it was daft to knock them all out just due to Elaine wanting to tell on them.  Dragging them all the way to Toman Head as prisoners is a silly way to go when at least 2 of them would go willingly and Liandrin can tell them (and be believed because AS cannot lie) that she will return Elaine to the tower later.  Liandrin knows that if Nynave gets angry enough she can overcome Liandrin's shield.  If this is where they introduce forkroot that might be some way to deal with it.

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

In the book he was built up as a potential outland lord by a number of small instances all combining to raise his social interest to the nobility. There is no parallel to the shows butchering of this.

 

In the books he is found dressed as a lord with the stunning Selene travelling with him who is also playing a lady at the time at the site of a major project for the King of Cairhein. He is then escorted to the capital by some of the soldiers guarding the project further raising his interest. He then by his nativity and straight forwardness continues to escalate his social status.

 

In the show he is simply a man who snuck into 1 party with a foregate innkeeper stole some wine and burnt 1 invitation and works in an insane asylum. And I would argue the invitation burning was added to the show simply as a nod to the books and not for any other narrative purpose.

 

The location of the cabin matters, Selene has no history, the cabin of her past is a fiction. Can you really see Lanfear spilling where she is really going to anyone but Rand and his knowledge is limited purely to Lanfear, closing the loop. She especially is going to be tight lipped considering she is so close to her goal of regaining her lost love.

Except that the show proves you wrong because Moiraines sister knew was watching him very closely and knew where he was, she told Moiraine over tea, so she had everyone watching him, and she had them watching him because of what he did at the dinner. She came up to him and in so many words told him she and everyone else would now be spying on him. It is there, in the show. If someone is spying on him so fully in the city then it makes sense that they would find out where he has been travelling to outside the city, Lanfer constantly underestimates everyone in the books so it is totally to type that she has no concept of what her playing Rand and trying to get him to become a lord might do to the wider scheme of things, or she knew exactly what she was doing but didn't think through the consequences of putting him so definitively on everyones radar.  

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The principle objection to the end of the Liandrin / 3 girls action in this episode is that it was daft to knock them all out just due to Elaine wanting to tell on them.  Dragging them all the way to Toman Head as prisoners is a silly way to go when at least 2 of them would go willingly and Liandrin can tell them (and be believed because AS cannot lie) that she will return Elaine to the tower later.  Liandrin knows that if Nynave gets angry enough she can overcome Liandrin's shield.  If this is where they introduce forkroot that might be some way to deal with it.

knocking them out was the plan anyway, Ishy may well be there to take them to Tomans head directly, It makes sense, the tunnel only leads out of the tower, they still need to sneak out of the city and it would be impossible to do that without someone reporting them to the tower. Liandrin can't risk them being bundled up and sent back to the tower, she can't risk leading them out of the city herself because then someone would see that she was the one leading them out, Deep in the tunnels below the white tower she can deal with them quietly 100% sure that no one knows they are here. 

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, Cipher said:

-I don’t know how to break up quote to respond piece meal.

-Do you agree with every change of the show?  Do you have any criticisms of it?

 

“Randland”

1. Liandrin has been grooming Nynaeve for some unseen purpose.  It is not a stretch for Liandrin to say, “come let us  rescue your friends,” Nynaeve agrees to come. Egwene and Elayne then get attached the way Elayne does in the show.  Liandrin doesn’t need to knock them out show style, but betrays them book style.  Carrying 3 people clandestine is much harder than having them willingly following you.  Show did its way for drama as a hook for next weeks episode.  Contrived.

 

2.  Lan-sigh.  Daniel Henney is a good actor for Lan. I can understand the desire to give his character an arc and more screen time.  But you know what a 14 book epic that is being adapted to 8 TV seasons doesn’t need? Another character to have to show development on—Rand is being diminished for agendas and decisions that have 0 to do with telling the WoT story.  Book Lan is actually a deep character who is mysterious and broken by his past. In Wheel of Rafe he is broken by Moiraine’s loss of the OP and her pushing him away.  Moiraine is now on her own trying to save the world without the OP and literally the best swordsman in the world—makes no sense, she needs Lan more than ever. Contrived.

 

3.  I like your take on Selene, but it is a stretch for a Forsaken to just play house and manage an inn.  May be emotionally for Lanfear she is just trying to recover some normal life that she lost by turning evil. 

4. Ya, we got to show and talk about freaky sex stuff, because of the Aiel sister wife thing.  I would be ok if Rand just jumped from one of his girls to the next and never be married to them at the same time.  That is something I would approve of being changed.  Do people get pregnant in Randland?

 

more later probably

 

 

I mean Elayne is pregnant at the end of the books, we know Avi is going to have 4 children by Rand, we never see anything about Min. Rafe has already confirmed that the poly aspect of the relationship will play a big big part in the show, and that it is going to be more polyamory then polygamy which suggests he will explore the relationships between the women as well as between them and Rand. 

[Ralph]

29 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Except that the show proves you wrong because Moiraines sister knew was watching him very closely and knew where he was, she told Moiraine over tea, so she had everyone watching him, and she had them watching him because of what he did at the dinner. She came up to him and in so many words told him she and everyone else would now be spying on him. It is there, in the show. If someone is spying on him so fully in the city then it makes sense that they would find out where he has been travelling to outside the city, Lanfer constantly underestimates everyone in the books so it is totally to type that she has no concept of what her playing Rand and trying to get him to become a lord might do to the wider scheme of things, or she knew exactly what she was doing but didn't think through the consequences of putting him so definitively on everyones radar.  

 

I think Anvaere may anyway have known about him because she had taken over M's e&e's and knew M was interested in him. I thought that is why she approached him at the party in the first place 

[Ralph]

24 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

knocking them out was the plan anyway, Ishy may well be there to take them to Tomans head directly, It makes sense, the tunnel only leads out of the tower, they still need to sneak out of the city and it would be impossible to do that without someone reporting them to the tower. Liandrin can't risk them being bundled up and sent back to the tower, she can't risk leading them out of the city herself because then someone would see that she was the one leading them out, Deep in the tunnels below the white tower she can deal with them quietly 100% sure that no one knows they are here. 

The trailer shows them in the Ways

[Mailman]

44 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Except that the show proves you wrong because Moiraines sister knew was watching him very closely and knew where he was, she told Moiraine over tea, so she had everyone watching him, and she had them watching him because of what he did at the dinner. She came up to him and in so many words told him she and everyone else would now be spying on him. It is there, in the show. If someone is spying on him so fully in the city then it makes sense that they would find out where he has been travelling to outside the city, Lanfer constantly underestimates everyone in the books so it is totally to type that she has no concept of what her playing Rand and trying to get him to become a lord might do to the wider scheme of things, or she knew exactly what she was doing but didn't think through the consequences of putting him so definitively on everyones radar.  

The show clumsily tells us that despite it making no sense. It is terrible storytelling.

The book shows the path that led from a nobody to someone inadvertently gaining notice at the highest levels.

The show could announce to us that mechanical robots that disguise themselves as cars exist it would make it true for the show but not any less stupid in universe.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

The trailer shows them in the Ways

I don't watch the trailers or try and guess what might happen so I am going simply from this episode and where it might go. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Could the party crash scene be partially explained by Lanfear using some form of compulsion or mind control to manufacture and manipulate the people’s acceptance of their presence with the OP somehow? Or is that too much of a stretch?

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

7 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

the Liandrin / 3 girls action in this episode is that it was daft to knock them all out

Is that action by liandrin a concrete reveal of her book nature in show or is it still supposed to be uncertain what her motives are?

[Guire]

4 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Could the party crash scene be partially explained by Lanfear using some form of compulsion or mind control to manufacture and manipulate the people’s acceptance of their presence with the OP somehow? Or is that too much of a stretch?

Very likely Lanfear could have Jedi mind tricked a few people to get them in the door.  However Selene and Rand are 2 attractive confident well dressed people crawling through a den of vipers. With game of houses in full effect I think their presence without interference was pretty reasonable. 

[Scarloc99]

47 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Is that action by liandrin a concrete reveal of her book nature in show or is it still supposed to be uncertain what her motives are?

I mean if that isn't Min finding out that Liandrin is working for Ishy def is, she was told by Liandrin that she would meet someone in the attic room of the inn, so she knows that Liandrin is working for Ishy now. 

[DigificWriter]

5 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

knocking them out was the plan anyway

 

The sequence as presented contradicts this assertion.

 

You're determined that Liandrin be this one-dimensional villain whose every action is suspect despite the show repeatedly demonstrating otherwise, and it's strange to me.

 

Show!Liandrin isn't and shouldn't be a black-and-white baddie and can have layers and nuance to her characterization without changing the awful things that she may or may not do.

[DreadLord31]

4 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

The sequence as presented contradicts this assertion.

 

You're determined that Liandrin be this one-dimensional villain whose every action is suspect despite the show repeatedly demonstrating otherwise, and it's strange to me.

 

Show!Liandrin isn't and shouldn't be a black-and-white baddie and can have layers and nuance to her characterization without changing the awful things that she may or may not do.

This next episode should be interesting; Nyn and Liandrin are the Tv shows most compelling characters and I bet you buttons to bitcoin that there’s a clumsy exposition dumb in the Ways about “why” Liandrin betrayed them. But I’m really very interested to hear it because show Liandrin has made us (the audience) as well as Nynaeve believe she really does (in some way) respect and care about Nynaeve. 
 

But, as a book fan, it’s hard to shut off my brain and not be asking, “Why in the world is Liandrin your most fleshed-out and compelling character?” Hmmmmm…. 
 

It would be like watching an adaptation of the Lord of the Rings and finding out that the most interesting character that they’re giving tons of time to fleshing out is Nazgûl #4. And even that’s probably overstating her importance in the books. Maybe more like Goblin #7 is really interesting in This Adaptation… hmmmm. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Mirefox]

18 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

This next episode should be interesting; Nyn and Liandrin are the Tv shows most compelling characters and I bet you buttons to bitcoin that there’s a clumsy exposition dumb in the Ways about “why” Liandrin betrayed them. But I’m really very interested to hear it because show Liandrin has made us (the audience) as well as Nynaeve believe she really does (in some way) respect and care about Nynaeve. 
 

But, as a book fan, it’s hard to shut off my brain and not be asking, “Why in the world is Liandrin your most fleshed-out and compelling character?” Hmmmmm…. 
 

It would be like watching an adaptation of the Lord of the Rings and finding out that the most interesting character that they’re giving tons of time to fleshing out is Nazgûl #4. And even that’s probably overstating her importance in the books. Maybe more like Goblin #7 is really interesting in This Adaptation… hmmmm. 

 

 

I agree completely.  In a general sense, I don't mind having a more fleshed out character and I understand that they are trying to give depth and motivation to one of the protagonists; on the other hand, the show has spent far more time and effort on Liandrin than they have on Rand, Mat, or Perrin (and possibly all three combined).  This is especially puzzling considering that Elaida has been confirmed as an upcoming character - if they had been combining Liandrin and Elaida I can see the time being spent; as is, a shallow c-level character has consistently had the most screen time and writers' focus at the expense of the main characters.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

The sequence as presented contradicts this assertion.

 

You're determined that Liandrin be this one-dimensional villain whose every action is suspect despite the show repeatedly demonstrating otherwise, and it's strange to me.

 

Show!Liandrin isn't and shouldn't be a black-and-white baddie and can have layers and nuance to her characterization without changing the awful things that she may or may not do.

How does it contradict, she appears to them, which instantly makes her intentions suspicious, then she knocks out the girls. She didn't need to knock the girls out, even Elayne being there she can lead them away if that is the plan, but it clearly isn't. 

[Scarloc99]

43 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

 

I agree completely.  In a general sense, I don't mind having a more fleshed out character and I understand that they are trying to give depth and motivation to one of the protagonists; on the other hand, the show has spent far more time and effort on Liandrin than they have on Rand, Mat, or Perrin (and possibly all three combined).  This is especially puzzling considering that Elaida has been confirmed as an upcoming character - if they had been combining Liandrin and Elaida I can see the time being spent; as is, a shallow c-level character has consistently had the most screen time and writers' focus at the expense of the main characters.

Liandrin is going to be the big bad black Ajah aes sedai, possibly replacing Alvarin, although more likely will be the big bad out in the world threatening the girls, I think it is possible she will have a bigger role in the show then she does in the books where, much as all the big bad's, she is fairly one dimensional. 

My wife is not a book lover and she feels that development has been fairly even across the piece, I think we as book readers are noticing it because in the books she is so flat as a character, Liandrin is evil, because she does evil things and she does evil things because she is evil, oh and joining the shadow seemed the best thing to do, because she is evil and that is what evil people do. 

[DigificWriter]

8 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

How does it contradict, she appears to them, which instantly makes her intentions suspicious, then she knocks out the girls. She didn't need to knock the girls out, even Elayne being there she can lead them away if that is the plan, but it clearly isn't. 

 

The scene as presented makes it clear that she only uses the One Power because of Elayne's presence. She also apologizes before casting the weave.

 

If, as you claim, it was always her plan to abduct Nynaeve and Egwene by using the One Power to knock them out, all we, as an audience, would have seen initially was a wave of wind that knocked them back, followed by Liandrin just appearing.

 

5 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

in the books she is so flat as a character, Liandrin is evil, because she does evil things and she does evil things because she is evil, oh and joining the shadow seemed the best thing to do, because she is evil and that is what evil people do. 

 

And you seem to be determined to view Show!Liandrin in the same light.

[Guire]

2 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Liandrin is going to be the big bad black Ajah aes sedai, possibly replacing Alvarin, although more likely will be the big bad out in the world threatening the girls, I think it is possible she will have a bigger role in the show then she does in the books where, much as all the big bad's, she is fairly one dimensional. 

My wife is not a book lover and she feels that development has been fairly even across the piece, I think we as book readers are noticing it because in the books she is so flat as a character, Liandrin is evil, because she does evil things and she does evil things because she is evil, oh and joining the shadow seemed the best thing to do, because she is evil and that is what evil people do. 

I am just assuming her and Alvarian are merged in some way at this point.  I think RJ presentation of villians is way more accurate than people think.  People act evil because they are selfish, self centered, narcissictic. They ally with people that serve their self centered needs and this is evil to everyone it affects.  That was the means EF5 and allies could defeat the Forsaken and why Dark One favored idiots who served his needs over intelligence or competance.  Asmodean could still make great music but he was a selfish prick.

 

 

[Scarloc99]

9 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

The scene as presented makes it clear that she only uses the One Power because of Elayne's presence. She also apologizes before casting the weave.

 

If, as you claim, it was always her plan to abduct Nynaeve and Egwene by using the One Power to knock them out, all we, as an audience, would have seen initially was a wave of wind that knocked them back, followed by Liandrin just appearing.

 

 

And you seem to be determined to view Show!Liandrin in the same light.

The apology was that tongue in cheek bad guy apology, no real meaning behind it she says when elayne is there "this will make things trickier" but it is all planned out and as she intended. 

And I am happy that we are getting more insight into Liandrin, and hopefully some explanation as to why she joined the shadow. But the fact is she is bad, and manipulative and seeking power, so she has been planning this out right up to this moment of knocking them out for months and months. You do not put the intricate plans she has in place, like getting Nyn to follow her through the tunells as she goes to "see her son", or pushing for Nyn to be made accepted so she can then entice her to leave the tower and walk into the trap and then just throw the plans all on it's head because Elayne turns up, you seem to think the apology is heartfelt, it really isn't Liandrin is evil, you don't work directly for one of the forsaken because you are not committed to the dark and all in on the plans. I may be wrong but I really hope not. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Scarloc99

[DigificWriter]

4 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

The apology was that tongue in cheek bad guy apology, no real meaning behind it

 

Only if you're determined to view Show!Liandrin as being one-dimensionally evil.

[Guire]

2 things I noticed not commented on so far.  Rands dealing with Fade was was big call back to Wonder Girls sucking Fade into a flaming black hole when they were captured by outlaws.

 

Possible biggest nitpick of entire show.  How come no one in entire film crew and actors not know how to mop.  Elayne I can buy as daughter heir but inn keeper heir Egwene should be forever shamed for that mop job.  I was hurt to the depths of my soul.

 

 

 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

8 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

12 minutes ago, Guire said:

I am just assuming her and Alvarian are merged in some way at this point.  I think RJ presentation of villians is way more accurate than people think.  People act evil because they are selfish, self centered, narcissictic. They ally with people that serve their self centered needs and this is evil to everyone it affects.  That was the means EF5 and allies could defeat the Forsaken and why Dark One favored idiots who served his needs over intelligence or competance.  Asmodean could still make great music but he was a selfish prick.

 

 

Sorry got to disagree here, there is always a reason for people acting that way, why are they self centred, why do they need to have power and control, simply saying that self centred evil people find watch other and work together is simplistic. The Forsaken where all intelligent great people in there age, and age full of decadence and a complete lack of oversight or control, an age where Channellers put themselves above all others. Some of the Foresaken turned because they where about to be caught for breaking laws, but most of them the turn was subtle, taking a long period of time, but we never see that, and thats ok the foresaken are a constant but Taim, why did he turn what was his weakness and what in his background made him susceptible. Villains always have a deeper reason, no baby is born inherently evil, things happen in a persons life to send them down a path.