WoT Season 2 - I WATCHED ALL THE EPISODES TOPIC

[Godoggo]

My biggest fear is the Ishamael statement that Mat was basically born to the dark.  Mat, who was my favorite character, is more the reluctant rogue who supports Rand.  I worry that they are going to change that to just make Mat evil.  Will Rand make it to Falme this season, or will Nynaeve fight the blademaster.  She's had more training with the sword than Rand

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, Godoggo said:

My biggest fear is the Ishamael statement that Mat was basically born to the dark.  Mat, who was my favorite character, is more the reluctant rogue who supports Rand.  I worry that they are going to change that to just make Mat evil.  Will Rand make it to Falme this season, or will Nynaeve fight the blademaster.  She's had more training with the sword than Rand

Lmao

[EmreY]

On 9/17/2023 at 1:21 AM, mogi68 said:

So we have titles for the rest of the episodes yet?

 

Yes, all of them.  The first is easy, though, from IMDB:

Spoiler

Ep. 6 "Eyes Without Pity (or "Eyes With Too Much Mascara"?)

 

And then I found the other two, though I can't remember exactly where.  And they might be wrong.

Spoiler

Ep. 7 "Daes Dae'mar" (or "Obligatory Excessive Use of Apostrophes")

Ep. 8 "What Was Meant to Be" (or "We Get to See More of Rand"?)

 

On the subject of Rand, whom I've been missing, I checked and found that Book 3 is where he effectively drops into Sauron-levels of non-presence (his POV accounts for 2.4% of the book), so I should be glad, I suppose, that the TV series is not hewing strictly to the books.

[Scarloc99]

12 hours ago, Godoggo said:

My biggest fear is the Ishamael statement that Mat was basically born to the dark.  Mat, who was my favorite character, is more the reluctant rogue who supports Rand.  I worry that they are going to change that to just make Mat evil.  Will Rand make it to Falme this season, or will Nynaeve fight the blademaster.  She's had more training with the sword than Rand

Yeah because the Father of Lies is to be believed :). Mat is not being changed or made evil, he is going to be the one ot catch Ishy unaware as it is assumed he wil do one thing, only to then do the opposite. 

[Vartija]

It's starting to become my pet peeve, but it still bothers me how little training Rand has had with the sword. Time's running out on season 2 and it looks like the remaining three episodes are going to be so fast paced and thematically different that there's not going to be time for any training. At least not the type that would make Rand a credible opponent in a one on one duel. 

 

For me it's not only that he should be adequate with it by season two's end but also how the sword was such a big part of his character. It was his connection to Tam and the one thing outside of being the DR that he actually excelled in, enjoyed and worked hard to be good at because he wanted to earn the right to carry a blademaster's blade. It was a character building device in the books that kept him grounded and "normal" when all the world wanted from him was to become the Dragon. I always liked and appreciated how he never gave it up despite not necessarily needing it after learning to channell. 

 

I think that part of Rand is missing in the show and it makes him a much less impressive character. Like in the book, Bryne says the sword belongs to him just by the way he carries it but no one would make that assumption in the show. If anything, others have used the sword more effectively than he has, be it Dana the Darkfriend or Moiraine slaughtering Lanfear with it.   

[DaddyFinn]

9 minutes ago, Vartija said:

It's starting to become my pet peeve, but it still bothers me how little training Rand has had with the sword. Time's running out on season 2 and it looks like the remaining three episodes are going to be so fast paced and thematically different that there's not going to be time for any training. At least not the type that would make Rand a credible opponent in a one on one duel. 

 

For me it's not only that he should be adequate with it by season two's end but also how the sword was such a big part of his character. It was his connection to Tam and the one thing outside of being the DR that he actually excelled in, enjoyed and worked hard to be good at because he wanted to earn the right to carry a blademaster's blade. It was a character building device in the books that kept him grounded and "normal" when all the world wanted from him was to become the Dragon. I always liked and appreciated how he never gave it up despite not necessarily needing it after learning to channell. 

 

I think that part of Rand is missing in the show and it makes him a much less impressive character. Like in the book, Bryne says the sword belongs to him just by the way he carries it but no one would make that assumption in the show. If anything, others have used the sword more effectively than he has, be it Dana the Darkfriend or Moiraine slaughtering Lanfear with it.   

I hope Rand just blasts Turak with the OP or someone else kills him. S3 forward he could maybe get some training along with

Spoiler

aiel unarmed combat

 

[SinisterDeath]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Spoiler

aiel unarmed combat

 

Spoiler

Well, eventually he'll have to learn to fight without unarmed anyways...

 

[Ralph]

wondering if the memories will kick in and he will have Lews Therin's skill

 

In the books was also far too quick. and Gareth Bryne's statement someone mentioned was in EotW so after only a few sessions 

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, Vartija said:

It's starting to become my pet peeve, but it still bothers me how little training Rand has had with the sword. Time's running out on season 2 and it looks like the remaining three episodes are going to be so fast paced and thematically different that there's not going to be time for any training. At least not the type that would make Rand a credible opponent in a one on one duel. 

 

For me it's not only that he should be adequate with it by season two's end but also how the sword was such a big part of his character. It was his connection to Tam and the one thing outside of being the DR that he actually excelled in, enjoyed and worked hard to be good at because he wanted to earn the right to carry a blademaster's blade. It was a character building device in the books that kept him grounded and "normal" when all the world wanted from him was to become the Dragon. I always liked and appreciated how he never gave it up despite not necessarily needing it after learning to channell. 

 

I think that part of Rand is missing in the show and it makes him a much less impressive character. Like in the book, Bryne says the sword belongs to him just by the way he carries it but no one would make that assumption in the show. If anything, others have used the sword more effectively than he has, be it Dana the Darkfriend or Moiraine slaughtering Lanfear with it.   

100% agreed, I think the show has done a bad job with Rand overall, and there has been little in terms of his relationship with Tam. The sword is such a big part of him throughout the series. I think it's something that suffered because of their silly "who is the Dragon" so-called "Plot" in season 1. We've had very few character building moments for Rand, we barely got to know him before he is known to be the Dragon, and there's been very little of it since in terms of his identity crisis and grappling with that. We've had a scene or two with Selene where he talks about not getting what you want from the Wheel, but it's really not enough to develop him imo

 

I realise is much of this is internal in the books but to be frank I don't think the show has even tried to make Rand an interesting character (and I give the show plenty of credit elsewhere) 

[Vartija]

I agree, the "who's the dragon?" mystery really screwed Rand's character development. They worked so hard not point the finger at Rand that they took away anything that might show some special skill or ability.

 

Another thing that kind of diluted his character was the way they skipped his journey carrying Tam back to Emmond's Field. Again, this was done not to reveal his true parentage, but in the book we learned through that journey that he's one tough sob who'll go through hell to bring his loved ones to safety. You got the feeling there's something special about the kid just how stubbornly he worked through the night on the brink of exhaustion. It was his "Sam carries Frodo to Mount Doom"-moment, but we saw none of it.   

[Meskell]

Without having read the books I couldn’t see how you would understand that Rand is meant to be a big deal. 
 

His lack of characterisation in favour of wasting time on Steppin, Lan and whatever is going on with Moiraine is pretty frustrating. 
 

Tbf though, the book did also have this issue, spending huge detours on things like Morgase, that are completely unimportant in the wider scheme of things. 
 

I do think they would’ve been better off trimming everything away to just Rand, Mat, Nynaeve / The Last Battle / Forsaken. Deciding what is absolutely key to keep for the correct markers to be hit. Then fleshing out Egwene and Perrin in their overall plot, before settling on Moiraine, Elayne and Aviendha with whatever is left. 
 

They obviously drop the right names and characters in as they go along but entire episodes are not wasted on someone that has no impact or influence on the Last Battle. If they were going to do the Steppin type episode, I would’ve preferred an episode getting to know darkfiends in this world, as they’ve definitely done Darkfriends and potentially the Forsaken on the series compared to the books up to this point. 
 

The amount the series has been compressed with the 8 episode series means that anything that is not key can go, whereas the focus seems to be on inventing new scenes and beats that weren’t needed. 

[Chivalry]

Overall, I'm enjoying this season more than the first. I'm over the shock of the many, many changes to the source material. This allows me to enjoy the uncertainty of (not knowing) what comes next. Some of the changes are helpful, adding depth to characters/motivations. I've come to appreciate most of the performances. 

 

Plus, it's been nearly two years since the Amazon series debuted. It's been more than two decades since I discovered the world of Robert Jordan. My emotional attachment has definitely waned. It's easier to let things go.

 

Is this the series I wanted? To invert that wonderful Dark Knight quote - maybe it's not the series we need, but perhaps it's the series we collectively deserve.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Chivalry

[EmreY]

4 hours ago, Meskell said:

Without having read the books I couldn’t see how you would understand that Rand is meant to be a big deal. 

 

I agree that so far the only big deal seems to be that he can channel.  But I'm stuck trying to figure out what could have been shown so far.

 

I did like the earth hiccups at the start of The Dragon Reborn.  Maybe something like that?

[Kaleb]

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

 

I agree that so far the only big deal seems to be that he can channel.  But I'm stuck trying to figure out what could have been shown so far.

I'm optimistic that this next episode is going to feature Lanfear finally giving us some decent exposition on what exactly it means to be The Dragon Reborn. 

[Meskell]

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

I agree that so far the only big deal seems to be that he can channel.  But I'm stuck trying to figure out what could have been shown so far.

 

I did like the earth hiccups at the start of The Dragon Reborn.  Maybe something like that?

Maybe if they had opened with Moiraine hearing the prophecy 20 years earlier, before panning to a shot of all the EF5, to allow for the nonsense ‘anyone can be the Dragon’ season 1 plot. Once you get to season 2, the prophecy then becomes focussed on Rand and starts the process of him actually looking like a main character, rather than some mopey lad who sort of grunts through two seasons worth of dialogue. 

[ForsakenPotato]

Ymmv, but I've been watching with a friend who has not read the books. She gets that the dragon reborn is a big deal! That was one of the main themes of Season 1 -- they wouldn't have spent time on the "who is the dragon reborn" shenanigans if being the dragon reborn was of no consequence. I don't mind them rolling out allllll the implications of that more slowly instead of in big exposition dumps. And he will play a pivotal role in the battle(s) at the end of the season. How he'll do that given we have no evidence he can use his sword is separate issue...

[EmreY]

11 hours ago, Kaleb said:

I'm optimistic that this next episode is going to feature Lanfear finally giving us some decent exposition on what exactly it means to be The Dragon Reborn. 

 

Umm.  I dunno.  It could very well go like:

 

Lanfear: "In every incarnation, the Dragon either becomes my slave and achieves greatness - or dies."

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by EmreY

[Scarloc99]

17 hours ago, Meskell said:

Without having read the books I couldn’t see how you would understand that Rand is meant to be a big deal. 
 

His lack of characterisation in favour of wasting time on Steppin, Lan and whatever is going on with Moiraine is pretty frustrating. 
 

Tbf though, the book did also have this issue, spending huge detours on things like Morgase, that are completely unimportant in the wider scheme of things. 
 

I do think they would’ve been better off trimming everything away to just Rand, Mat, Nynaeve / The Last Battle / Forsaken. Deciding what is absolutely key to keep for the correct markers to be hit. Then fleshing out Egwene and Perrin in their overall plot, before settling on Moiraine, Elayne and Aviendha with whatever is left. 
 

They obviously drop the right names and characters in as they go along but entire episodes are not wasted on someone that has no impact or influence on the Last Battle. If they were going to do the Steppin type episode, I would’ve preferred an episode getting to know darkfiends in this world, as they’ve definitely done Darkfriends and potentially the Forsaken on the series compared to the books up to this point. 
 

The amount the series has been compressed with the 8 episode series means that anything that is not key can go, whereas the focus seems to be on inventing new scenes and beats that weren’t needed. 

 mean my wife has never read the books and she gets it, my neighbour the same, other friends. 
As for the fact he hasn't learnt to fight yet, in TGH Rand is just about ok with a sword, he is shown being out of his deth time after time and I always felt that his beating Turok in the book came with him "cheating" and using the one power without realising it anyway. Against Ishy it is the last ditch tactic of sheathing the sword that lets him win. 

[Elendir]

Rand born like Dragon. I wish he has something he earned by himself. Skill he lerned, deeds done without one power. It is like born to be rich. Your wealthy is hardly something you can boast about then.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Elendir

[Vartija]

1 hour ago, Elendir said:

Rand born like Dragon. I wish he has something he earned by himself. Skill he lerned, deeds done without one power. It is like born to be rich. Your wealthy is hardly something you can boast about then.

This is why I always appreciated the sword training. It was something he did out of perseverance and hard work when so much else of his arc can be explained with ta'veren effects and stuff that is basically forced on him for being the Dragon Reborn. Same for some other small things like learning to play the flute.

 

edit: This is also why I don't like the idea of Rand learning sword use through LTT's memories or Portal Stone experiences. It would feel unearned when the sword was distinctly something he worked hard to master in the books. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Vartija

[Mirefox]

43 minutes ago, Vartija said:

This is why I always appreciated the sword training. It was something he did out of perseverance and hard work when so much else of his arc can be explained with ta'veren effects and stuff that is basically forced on him for being the Dragon Reborn. Same for some other small things like learning to play the flute.

 

edit: This is also why I don't like the idea of Rand learning sword use through LTT's memories or Portal Stone experiences. It would feel unearned when the sword was distinctly something he worked hard to master in the books. 

Agreed.  Sword training wasn’t just an acquired skill; training was a character trait and helped externalize Rand’s struggle with becoming the Dragon Reborn versus clinging to a more basic humanity, including holding fast to being Tam’s son.  In the show, Rand is such an underdeveloped character that he is probably the most bland and unexciting person in the whole show.  They dropped the ball on showing some of this character development.

[EmreY]

3 hours ago, Elendir said:

Rand born like Dragon. I wish he has something he earned by himself. Skill he lerned, deeds done without one power. It is like born to be rich. Your wealthy is hardly something you can boast about then.

 

2 hours ago, Vartija said:

This is why I always appreciated the sword training. It was something he did out of perseverance and hard work when so much else of his arc can be explained with ta'veren effects and stuff that is basically forced on him for being the Dragon Reborn. Same for some other small things like learning to play the flute.

 

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Agreed.  

 

Do Messiahs need training?

Edited September 19, 2023 by EmreY

[Chivalry]

9 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

in TGH Rand is just about ok with a sword, he is shown being out of his deth time after time and I always felt that his beating Turok in the book came with him "cheating" and using the one power without realising it anyway

Maybe he was relying on memories of LTT (a great swordsman) while ensconced in the void. 

[Cipher]

9 hours ago, Vartija said:

This is why I always appreciated the sword training. It was something he did out of perseverance and hard work when so much else of his arc can be explained with ta'veren effects and stuff that is basically forced on him for being the Dragon Reborn. Same for some other small things like learning to play the flute.

 

edit: This is also why I don't like the idea of Rand learning sword use through LTT's memories or Portal Stone experiences. It would feel unearned when the sword was distinctly something he worked hard to master in the books. 

I feel we are going to get portal stone flicker-flicker for him to get sword skills.  Feels cheap, but also in TGH no way should have Rand succeeded vs Turak without cheating.  I did not get a hint of him even subconsciously using the power to win that fight.

 

IMO there is no other way to do it at this point.  May be someone else will step in and fight Turak and Ishy.  
 

At this point Lan isn’t even a big deal.  Both Moiraine and Thom can kill fades with daggers—it ain’t no thing to use a sword vs fades. (I realize Thom used 2 daggers in book to at least fend off a fade. Did he kill it?)

 

So far the biggest deals in the show are Nynaeve, Tigraine, and Aviendha.  

Edited September 19, 2023 by Cipher

[Ralph]

I suspect we are about to see Lan defeat two other warders