Why not follow the books more closely?

[Mailman]

19 hours ago, henrywho said:

 

Wow talk about missing the point. Anyway this board is as dead as the show and now just as pointless.

I am no fan of the show, your comments which have been solely attempting to get a rise from show supporters with shallow attacks months after the announcement are pathetic.

 

In no way did my response miss the point of the post quoted.

[Maximillion]

It’s my intent to make the Wheel of Time as an animation. Not for commercial reasons obviously or for sharing publicly but to use it as an anchor for my continued deep dive into animation and AI, both areas i have been involved in for years.

I am confident it will be far better than the TV show.

i plan to complete the first few chapters of the EOTW by next summer as a POC.

 

 

 

[Bodewhin]

This is the first time I've taken the plunge into rereading the WOT since watching the series...

 

And I'm a little astounded how much worse season 1 adapted of The Eye of The World than I originally thought. Reading the book again, I'd forgotten how simply a lot of the world building and story is presented. Like come on, the first book is not as hard to adapt as people make out. 

 

I disagree that 8 episodes weren't enough, because I think a faithful adaption that carried the themes and spirit of the book could be achieved with proper editing, pacing and good writing. 

 

I'm not saying this to kick the can down the road or persist in criticism of a series that obviously some people really enjoyed.

 

But - rereading is just solidifying my feelings. In my mind showrunners were using WOT as a base for their own fantasy tale and lacked interest in adapting WOT faithfully, outside of using the character/place names and channeling and some of the basics. It's not the same story because it misses the mark from get-go. 

[zacz1987]

4 hours ago, Bodewhin said:

 

I disagree that 8 episodes weren't enough, because I think a faithful adaption that carried the themes and spirit of the book could be achieved with proper editing, pacing and good writing. 

I agree with you, at least for the first season. The plot is fairly straightforward and could have been easily streamlined while only making small cuts and changes 

 

While there were obvious large changes to the characters that I didn't agree with I think one of the main things that derailed the series was making the Aes Sedai such a huge component of the season.

 

In the series the Aes sedai start off as this mysterious organisation that is not fully trusted. It is not until the girls go to train we meet them to a greater extent and We realise how out of touch ad self centred most of them are.

[Bodewhin]

On 8/7/2025 at 7:52 PM, zacz1987 said:

I agree with you, at least for the first season. The plot is fairly straightforward and could have been easily streamlined while only making small cuts and changes 

 

While there were obvious large changes to the characters that I didn't agree with I think one of the main things that derailed the series was making the Aes Sedai such a huge component of the season.

 

In the series the Aes sedai start off as this mysterious organisation that is not fully trusted. It is not until the girls go to train we meet them to a greater extent and We realise how out of touch ad self centred most of them are.

 

 

Agreed. I realize the shift in focus was deliberate, but I take issue with it. The handling of the characters book vs show is just off-putting. 

 

For example, imo Lan was done dirty. In The Eye of The World he shines throughout in various ways, whereas in the show, he's much more Moiraine's hound in the writing, less impressive, less skilled, less in general. While he is her loyal Warder book Lan comes across as his own person, and takes initiative that isn't afforded to his actions throughout season 1 of the series. At times, Lan has nothing to do. Equally, something of book Moiraine's essence is lost in translation, because there's too much focus on her which actually distracts from the powerful calm and unpredictable aura that makes her so interesting. 

 

Show Liandrin always seemed more like book Elaida to me. And whoever thought to make Alanna the Aes Sedai poster-child continues to baffle me. In the book, her claim to fame is bonding Rand against his will. Similarly, I'll never understand why there was an entire episode devoted to the Aes Sedai/Warder saga/soap opera with characters that were basically NPCs, when actual plot arcs of main characters were non-existent. 

 

It's just such a strange angle in adapting a book like The Eye of The World. 

 

Edited August 12, 2025 by Bodewhin

[WoTwasThat]

On 8/7/2025 at 4:29 PM, Bodewhin said:

This is the first time I've taken the plunge into rereading the WOT since watching the series...

 

And I'm a little astounded how much worse season 1 adapted of The Eye of The World than I originally thought. Reading the book again, I'd forgotten how simply a lot of the world building and story is presented. Like come on, the first book is not as hard to adapt as people make out. 

 

I disagree that 8 episodes weren't enough, because I think a faithful adaption that carried the themes and spirit of the book could be achieved with proper editing, pacing and good writing. 

 

I'm not saying this to kick the can down the road or persist in criticism of a series that obviously some people really enjoyed.

 

But - rereading is just solidifying my feelings. In my mind showrunners were using WOT as a base for their own fantasy tale and lacked interest in adapting WOT faithfully, outside of using the character/place names and channeling and some of the basics. It's not the same story because it misses the mark from get-go. 

Agree 100%. I started my re-read a few months ago and had the same exact reaction, which I posted in a different thread. Book 1 was EASY to adapt. The story is so simple and linear. It establishes the characters. The lore. The magic without getting into different “weaves” etc. The fact that they bungled Book 1 so terribly is just unforgivable.

 

Ironically, now that I’m midway into Book 4, I’m finding a lot more things I had forgotten about that I would have changed in the TV series. Like how insufferably annoying the Super Girls are most of the time. Or how contrived and baseless Rand and Elayne’s “love story” is. My biggest frustration, I think, is how the Super Girls in particular just seem to figure out how to do all these crazy things with channeling by sheer intuition. My God, couldn’t Jordan at least have had them spending a few months in the tower learning how to do this stuff? It’s just literally unbelievable.

 

Not only would I have changed many things as the series went forward, I am gaining an appreciation of how difficult it would have been moving forward to adapt the series. A lot of internal narrative that would need to be changed to dialogue. Depicting the weaves. All the unbelievable bullsh*t. And Book 4 is my FAVORITE by the way.

 

But none of this excuses how they butchered Book 1. Inexcusable. That one was a layup.

Edited August 13, 2025 by WoTwasThat

[Elder_Haman]

40 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

Agree 100%. I started my re-read a few months ago and had the same exact reaction, which I posted in a different thread. Book 1 was EASY to adapt. The story is so simple and linear. It establishes the characters. The lore. The magic without getting into different “weaves” etc. The fact that they bungled Book 1 so terribly is just unforgivable.

 

Ironically, now that I’m midway into Book 4, I’m finding a lot more things I had forgotten about that I would have changed in the TV series. Like how insufferably annoying the Super Girls are most of the time. Or how contrived and baseless Rand and Elayne’s “love story” is. My biggest frustration, I think, is how the Super Girls in particular just seem to figure out how to do all these crazy things with channeling by sheer intuition. My God, couldn’t Jordan at least have had them spending a few months in the tower learning how to do this stuff? It’s just literally unbelievable.

 

Not only would I have changed any things as the series went forward, I am gaining an appreciation of how difficult it would have been moving forward to adapt the series. A lot of internal narrative that would need to be changed to dialogue. Depicting the weaves. All the unbelievable bullsh*t. And Book 4 is my FAVORITE by the way.

 

But none of this excuses how they butchered Book 1. Inexcusable. That one was a layup.

I think they wanted to try to do more world building up front rather than simply adapt Book One. In hindsight, that was clearly a mistake. 

[WoTwasThat]

22 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think they wanted to try to do more world building up front rather than simply adapt Book One. In hindsight, that was clearly a mistake. 

Yeah, introducing Tar Valon and so many Aes Sedai in Season 1 was a big mistake, among others. But what you call “world building” I think was just Rafe’s or whomever at Amazon’s preferred focus for the show.

 

The Dragon Reborn is the central story of the books. It just didn’t seem that way in the show. The show almost - not exactly but almost - made the DR a MacGuffin: Not the plot itself but a trigger to drive the plot. The Aes Sedai and more broadly a magical world of powerful women seemed to be the preferred focus for Amazon.
 

I just find myself being a bit hypocritical because, for all of my criticism of how much the show changed Book 1 - and I still think that critique is totally valid - as I re-read further into the series I’m like “damn, I’d change that” and “that” and “that” LOL. And I’m in the best part of the books before it went over a cliff!

 

Simple truth, RJ did a pretty lousy job with most of the female characters. Made them unrealistic and often extremely annoying. Which is ironic since WOT is revered for the strong female characters and storylines. 

[Kaleb]

47 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think they wanted to try to do more world building up front rather than simply adapt Book One. In hindsight, that was clearly a mistake. 

As it seems we've basically all agreed on this board, trying to make the audience think all of our Two Rivers characters could be the Dragon Reborn was the mistake, especially as they didn't really flesh out what the Dragon Reborn is and why he's important. But I still love the choice to show all the Aes Sedai maneuvering instead of just making it a Tolkien-esque small-group quest like in the book, in my view it was the best way to set up future seasons. The execution was lacking (Logain's pitiful army, wasting all that time on Aes Sedai without lots more exposition of the DR and Tarmon Gai'don, Tar Valon seeming so cramped and dingy), but they did a lot of things I really liked.

 

Finishing up a re-read and I'll post a lot more once that's done.

Edited August 13, 2025 by Kaleb

[Bodewhin]

4 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

Agree 100%. I started my re-read a few months ago and had the same exact reaction, which I posted in a different thread. Book 1 was EASY to adapt. The story is so simple and linear. It establishes the characters. The lore. The magic without getting into different “weaves” etc. The fact that they bungled Book 1 so terribly is just unforgivable.

 

Ironically, now that I’m midway into Book 4, I’m finding a lot more things I had forgotten about that I would have changed in the TV series. Like how insufferably annoying the Super Girls are most of the time. Or how contrived and baseless Rand and Elayne’s “love story” is. My biggest frustration, I think, is how the Super Girls in particular just seem to figure out how to do all these crazy things with channeling by sheer intuition. My God, couldn’t Jordan at least have had them spending a few months in the tower learning how to do this stuff? It’s just literally unbelievable.

 

Not only would I have changed many things as the series went forward, I am gaining an appreciation of how difficult it would have been moving forward to adapt the series. A lot of internal narrative that would need to be changed to dialogue. Depicting the weaves. All the unbelievable bullsh*t. And Book 4 is my FAVORITE by the way.

 

But none of this excuses how they butchered Book 1. Inexcusable. That one was a layup.

 

 

While I've read people complaining about RJ's female characters, it's not an opinion I hold. As a female reader, I actually appreciate the fact he put depth into his female characters, giving them flaws and moments of weakness as opposed to the token type females a lot of fantasy authors write in the genre. Same as his males to be honest. All the characters annoyed me at times, and I think that makes them feel more real. I like a lot of the females in the WOT. So, while RJ gets a lot of flack on that point, he's not getting that from me. 

 

I felt like the series missed the mark on so many of the characters, IMO Nynaeve was not the character I came to love in the books among other changes that are more noticeable on reread. The series' take on Min was bizarre and unrecognizable. (I won't even get into the guys like Mat, Perrin, Thom, that would be it's own topic) The character changes probably bothered me the most, because the characters were the thing I liked best and they are what kept me hooked on the books the first time around. I didn't have the same attachment to the style of characters presented in the tv series. 

 

While there are a lot of things I might have changed going forward, I don't see the WOT as all that hard to adapt within a series context. Some plots need cutting, a lot needs to be streamlined but ultimately, there are roads to take in that regard that wouldn't take the spirit of the story away. I feel like claiming the story is too difficult to adapt faithfully is just a handy excuse. 

 

I'll agree to disagree on those points.

 

At the end of the day, the relationship between a book and reader leaves a lot open to personal interpretation and personal preference.  So, that's why we're all going to walk away with different opinions and deal breakers when it comes to accepting an adaption, I think.

Edited August 13, 2025 by Bodewhin
missing words abound

[FrodoJenkins22]

On 5/31/2023 at 11:33 AM, WhiteVeils said:

LOTR, Harry Potter, and some of the Dunes (Haven't seen the most recent) vary /widely/ from the source material. There were huge complaints with all of them from fans of the books, back on the message boards of the day.  They were successful adaptations though, and so people forget how much of a change they were....many of the people doing the complaining about WOT now watched LOTR before reading the books, for example, so they don't care or even take note of the critical differences that the bookreaders experienced when the movies came out.
WOT is much, much more difficult to adapt than LOTR or Harry Potter.  So many of its important themes are based on people's thoughts as described through the POV chapters. In other works, thoughts aren't as essential to the character development of the story.   How do you convey thoughts in a TV media?

The mechanism for WOT allows for multiple turnings of the Wheel, so it's just as adaptable in its world setup as comic books.

But I think you miss the most essential reasons why they are doing this.  They're not doing it to 'get' the book reader audience....the audience is small, for starters. The part of the book reader audience whose vision of the books contrasts with the showrunner's vision of the books is smaller still.  The part of the book reader audience whose vision doesn't align with the showrunners AND can't handle the changes that are needed to make the books into a show is smaller.  The part of the book readers that handle the changes necessary to bring that story to a new audience is very very small indeed.   In exchange for that small number of book readers as an audience, this version opens the story up to new US and International audiences, including audiences in many, broader demographic groups than the original books' audience.  The themes of reincarnation, for example, are very appealing to an Asian audience, but would any Asian audience outside the US care about the show enough to reach those themes unless there are Asian leads in the show?  Unless they make the themes very apparent in the first episode in a way that makes it clear the show is honoring those themes not denigrating them?  How do you do that?  You add the Lantern scene. You make Lan the amazing Daniel Henney. You use Asian theme costuming.  That audience is many times the size of the US audience...of course Amazon will care about them more.

 The story for Wheel of Time has broader appeal when presented well, but that's not the reason Judkins is making it.  He /loves/ these books. He has since a child. They spoke to him, as a young gay boy growing up in Utah, in a different way than they might speak to another reader. But he loves them. He wanted to bring what he loves to the world, and he is.  You can choose not to like the show, you can decide you can't handle the changes.  That's your choice.

But was the adaptation financially successful for Amazon? Absolutely.  Does it convey what the showrunner wanted to convey? Mostly...there were Covid-driven problems in the last couple of episodes that he wants to fix, and he wanted 10 episodes with a 2 hour pilot and Amazon wouldn't let him.   Does it bring across the major themes of the series very well? In my opinion, yes, it does. It carries all the themes from EOTW across very well.  Does it give the essence of the EOTW plot, albeit with changes? Yes. It has 5 young men and women from a remote village who are dragged out of that village by a woman with great magical powers and her guardian to protect them, knowing that one of the five will have to face the Dark One who plans on destroying the world.  They travel with her, get separated, one gets corrupted with an evil dagger, one learns he can communicate with wolves, two learn that they have great magical power inside them, and one learns he is the Dragon Reborn, who will face the dark one.  He goes to do so at the end of the season, thinks he defeats him, but, we all suspect, he didn't really.  The rest of the series will show us all how much more will be involved.

That's literally the plot of Eye of the World.  

But...oh, Merry and Pippen met Sam and Frodo on the road in the show instead of meeting properly in Buckland. And Jackson made them /thieves/. Thier characters are ruined now. And it was important that they set up that Frodo was really moving to Buckland because otherwise the hobbits would have looked for them. And Sam didn't see the elves on the way to Buckland, so how does Frodo know they are leaving Middle Earth anyway? Would Sam do the same things if he didn't see them?  And then no Old Man Willow? Thom Bombadil was my favorite part....it's important to show not everything can be controlled by the ring.  And everyone knows Tomatoes are from South America and Middle Earth is supposed to be England so that's obviously wrong. And Aragorn just finds the magic swords lying around?  What is he? A graverobber? And that's not even getting to how they massacred Gimli's character and turned him into cheap comic relief!

 

Yeah, like that.

If i may retort...I appreciate the affore mentioned parallels with other storys i.e. LOTR and Star Wars and the creative liberties taken to grow the lore of such stories. Those works are arguably relevant and may or may not follow what die-hard fans want within the storylines. However, with this body of works, the story is ABSOLUTELY laid out with character development, plot synergy, and essence of tale. For me personally, to deviate so dramatically (regargless of the possibilities of bringing the 'main premise' back into alignment with the actual story) from the foundation that was provided is, well, bluntly put, wreckless. The series created an entirely "same different" account of the original work. Creating completely different storylines and character persona dynamics (that ultimately shape the viewer's perceptions of characters) is, while bold, demeaning to the actual body of work. I almost want to equate it with the abominable movie version of Steven King's "The Lawnmower Man." But...that is cruel and mean. The illustration was captivating and very well done. But to not follow the true story development and character attributes disinfranchises almost EVERY Jordan follower that has put years of unabated love and energy into the weavings of the Wheel. 

That being said, the series was enjoyable. It was both visually capitivating and enticing. If I had never read The Wheel of Time, the series would have been great! Unfortunately, that is not the case I argue. Ultimately, I am a thrilled to see Jordan's art portrayed on the screens. No one will EVER be totally pleased with what is presented as we all have our own perceptions in the end. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel will.