Question about logain

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I just rewatched season one for the first time since reading the full series. I always have subtitles turned on when I watch anything. I noticed that in the scene with logain where he we see the beings whispering in his ear, at least one of them has a name. Elusha or something. I don’t recall anything about that in the source material, does anyone know what that’s about? Maybe the show is going to give him a LTT equivalent in his arc?

[king of nowhere]

7 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

 I don’t recall anything about that in the source material, does anyone know what that’s about?

 

it's not in the books

Quote

Maybe the show is going to give him a LTT equivalent in his arc?

seems likely, yes. also the man gentled in the first scene had a voice in his head talking to him. I say it's a great way to keep suspence on whether rand is going mad or not

 

[DigificWriter]

The TV show changed Robert Jordan's underlying lore so that A) Lews Therin Telamon was himself the reincarnation of an earlier Dragon and B) the Dragon could have legitimately been reincarnated in female form, so the voices that Logain hears/figures that he sees are accordingly heavily implied to legitimately be past Dragons.

 

What that does or doesn't mean for Rand - the actual reincarnation of the Dragon - versus what it meant for Logain- who merely believed himself to be the Dragon - is yet to be demonstrated.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

The TV show changed Robert Jordan's underlying lore so that A) Lews Therin Telamon was himself the reincarnation of an earlier Dragon

 

that is book lore too. there is no beginning or ending to the wheel of time, so there were infinite reincarnations of the dragon

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

that is book lore too.

 

Not according to the 3 books in the series that I've read and everything that I've found online. 

 

Lews Therin Telamon, in the books, was, to my knowledge, labeled The Dragon posthumously and all prophecies regarding him apply specifically to him being reincarnated in the future relative to when he lived, whereas in the show, he was specifically referred to as The Dragon Reborn while still alive.

Edited July 1, 2023 by DigificWriter

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Not according to the 3 books in the series that I've read and everything that I've found online. 

 

Lews Therin Telamon, in the books, was, to my knowledge, labeled The Dragon posthumously and all prophecies regarding him apply specifically to him being reincarnated in the future relative to when he lived, whereas in the show, he was specifically referred to as The Dragon Reborn while still alive.

ah, you mean that. so you are right. but i'm not wrong either. so calling ltt the dragon reborn is correct, although they didn't call him that in the books

[DigificWriter]

^ My broader point, relative to this topic, is that Lews being referred to as The Dragon Reborn opens questions and speculation about the Dragon(s) who came before him in show lore and also makes it possible for Logain's claim that previous Dragons spoke to him to be both literal and a product of the corruption on Saidin and makes it literally possible for Elusha, the female figure who was shown encouraging him to kill the King of Ghealdon, to have been a previous Dragon.

Edited July 2, 2023 by DigificWriter

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

12 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

so the voices that Logain hears/figures that he sees are accordingly heavily implied to legitimately be past Dragons

Or more accurately that Logain in his madness sincerely believes them to be past dragons (but also believes that he knows better so he ignores their incitement to violent actions).

 

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Lews Therin Telamon, in the books, was, to my knowledge, labeled The Dragon posthumously

In the books he earned the title "Telamon" (in the old toung literally "the Dragon") in the same way that other prominent figures earned a third, honorific, name for their acts (several of the Forsaken have these for example in their known original names).  While there were other previous chosen ones they were not necessarily this soul nor were they necessarily known as the dragon.  The Flashback scene in the show with the subtitles showing the reference to "dragon reborn" is either an error or a deliberate change.

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Or more accurately that Logain in his madness sincerely believes them to be past dragons (but also believes that he knows better so he ignores their incitement to violent actions).

 

In the books he earned the title "Telamon" (in the old toung literally "the Dragon") in the same way that other prominent figures earned a third, honorific, name for their acts (several of the Forsaken have these for example in their known original names).  While there were other previous chosen ones they were not necessarily this soul nor were they necessarily known as the dragon.  The Flashback scene in the show with the subtitles showing the reference to "dragon reborn" is either an error or a deliberate change.

 

As i noted previously, the changes that Rafe and Co. made to the underlying lore regarding reincarnation make it possible for the figures that Logain saw/heard to be both legitimately previous Dragons and manifestations of the madness caused by the corruption of Saidin.

 

Also, the Tamrylin calling Lews the Dragon Reborn was definitely a deliberate change that fits with the other alterations to the reincarnation lore that Rafe and Co. made.

[Samt]

9 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

As i noted previously, the changes that Rafe and Co. made to the underlying lore regarding reincarnation make it possible for the figures that Logain saw/heard to be both legitimately previous Dragons and manifestations of the madness caused by the corruption of Saidin.

 

Also, the Tamrylin calling Lews the Dragon Reborn was definitely a deliberate change that fits with the other alterations to the reincarnation lore that Rafe and Co. made.

In the book, Lews Therin was the Tamyrlin seat.  So that's another change.  

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

13 hours ago, Samt said:

In the book, Lews Therin was the Tamyrlin seat.  So that's another change.  

In the book he "once wore the ring of Tamyrlin and sat in the High Seat" to be more exact.  Presumably he stood down from that role (either according to some schedule as having to be the political leader for centuries would be irritating or to lead the armies in the war of power) so the only explicit change in the series is keeping the title the same instead of showing it had evolved over time to just "Amyrlin Seat".

[Agitel]

On 7/2/2023 at 12:08 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Or more accurately that Logain in his madness sincerely believes them to be past dragons (but also believes that he knows better so he ignores their incitement to violent actions).

 

In the books he earned the title "Telamon" (in the old toung literally "the Dragon") in the same way that other prominent figures earned a third, honorific, name for their acts (several of the Forsaken have these for example in their known original names).  While there were other previous chosen ones they were not necessarily this soul nor were they necessarily known as the dragon.  The Flashback scene in the show with the subtitles showing the reference to "dragon reborn" is either an error or a deliberate change.

 

I have in my head that Telamon, LT's third name, means Heart of the World/Worldheart. I feel pretty confidently about this from ancient discussions on the forums, but now am having trouble sourcing it. Dragon is aman, not amon. We find "tel" in Tel'Aran'Rhiod for world of dreams, and amon also in Ba'alzamon (Heart of the Dark; this is the Trolloc tongue, but it would have been derived from the Old Tongue). He was given his third name before the drilling of the Bore, the Decline, and War of Power.

 

Dragon, I believe, was a separate title given to him as the appointed war leader for the Light. This was not in reference to his soul, but was just a title. It gained its prophetic significance after the Breaking through many foretellings about his rebirth, and looks to build more of a religious significance in the Fourth Age (according to the little excerpts we get at the beginning and end of books).

Spoiler

The people of the AoL did believe in the rebirth of all souls, but the rebirth of souls for a particular purpose was a foreign idea to them. In the books they wouldn't have thought of LTT as the Dragon Reborn. To them he's just a man -- a great man, but just a man -- they gave the war title Dragon.

 

EDIT: I found a source from RJ that Telamon does not mean Dragon or The Dragon.

 

https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=183

 

Quote

 

QUESTION

Does Telamon mean "dragon" or does it mean "Kinslayer" or is it something else?

ROBERT JORDAN

What? In Lews Therin Telamon? No, no. It means something else. That's his name. Lews Therin is the name he was born with. Telamon, a name he was given later.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Agitel

[nsmallw]

Those figures are just aspects of Logain's madness. I don't believe they are prior Dragons. 

 

Rafe can always explicitly make them prior Dragons to emphasize the show lore that Dragons can be both male and female

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

16 hours ago, nsmallw said:

Those figures are just aspects of Logain's madness. I don't believe they are prior Dragons. 

 

Rafe can always explicitly make them prior Dragons to emphasize the show lore that Dragons can be both male and female

I see your point in that the show can portray it either as pure madness or definitively derivative of previous dragons, and furthermore using this to illustrate gender not being a factor informing show lore.
 

I seem to recall that Logain at least is certain that they are past versions of himself as the dragon, so I’m curious to see if/how the show will portray the madness factor. Meaning will it be presented as undoubtedly pure madness caused by the taint or will it be ambiguous to a degree leaving viewers wondering. I’ll admit I’m not convinced that what we get in the book version of this scenario could be explained only as madness …I would say more like a specific form of madness based on a specific and explainable reality for the individual and their prior incarnations. It will be interesting to see how the show handles the taint/madness situation. 

[Scarloc99]

On 7/1/2023 at 4:43 PM, DigificWriter said:

The TV show changed Robert Jordan's underlying lore so that A) Lews Therin Telamon was himself the reincarnation of an earlier Dragon and B) the Dragon could have legitimately been reincarnated in female form, so the voices that Logain hears/figures that he sees are accordingly heavily implied to legitimately be past Dragons.

 

What that does or doesn't mean for Rand - the actual reincarnation of the Dragon - versus what it meant for Logain- who merely believed himself to be the Dragon - is yet to be demonstrated.

Lewis Therin was always a reincarnation of an earlier dragon. Ishy tells him, we have fought this battle over and over and will again into the future. 

It did not state the Dragon could be reincarnated as a women, Moraine thinking it might be possible does not make it lore in universe, it makes Moraine wrong. Rafe has stated that Rand was always the dragon and that lore has not been changed. 

I do love how people are jumping on the very normal concept of an unreliable narrator in storytelling and insisting it is breaking lore. Characters are allowed to be wrong in universe. 

[Scarloc99]

On 7/1/2023 at 7:14 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Not according to the 3 books in the series that I've read and everything that I've found online. 

 

Lews Therin Telamon, in the books, was, to my knowledge, labeled The Dragon posthumously and all prophecies regarding him apply specifically to him being reincarnated in the future relative to when he lived, whereas in the show, he was specifically referred to as The Dragon Reborn while still alive.

It very clearly is the way the show is going to demonstrate the madness, those are not real dragons, in fact they are very probably not real. I will say if you are only 3 books in then I don't want to spoil anything but it is explained much later that Rands madness is very different to the other male channellers. 

We don't know from the books exactly what information they knew in the age of legends. Again far later on in the books it is suggested that Lewis Therin had a lot more knowledge about the turning of the wheel and the fact this battle is being constantly fought so it isn't necessarily a massive "lore break"  but that all comes in the last 3 books. 

[DigificWriter]

On 8/8/2023 at 4:34 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Lewis Therin was always a reincarnation of an earlier dragon. Ishy tells him, we have fought this battle over and over and will again into the future. 

It did not state the Dragon could be reincarnated as a women, Moraine thinking it might be possible does not make it lore in universe, it makes Moraine wrong. Rafe has stated that Rand was always the dragon and that lore has not been changed. 

I do love how people are jumping on the very normal concept of an unreliable narrator in storytelling and insisting it is breaking lore. Characters are allowed to be wrong in universe. 

 

Rafe and others involved with the show have flat-out stated that the underlying lore of the WoT world has been changed vis-a-vis reincarnation.

 

The concept of female Dragons is not an "unreliable narrator" scenario; it's the manifestation of an actual literal lore change, and one that has been admitted to upfront by the creators of the show.

[SinisterDeath]

59 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

The concept of female Dragons is not an "unreliable narrator" scenario; it's the manifestation of an actual literal lore change, and one that has been admitted to upfront by the creators of the show.

Jordan was a bit "wishy washy" on the concept of Dragons in other ages.
The best we got out of him is that there were other "Dragons" in other ages, and that there was possibly a "female dragon", except that it was a "different" soul then the one tied to Rand.

Either way, whatever the creators of the show said, what changed?

Is Joshua female?

[DigificWriter]

30 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Jordan was a bit "wishy washy" on the concept of Dragons in other ages.
The best we got out of him is that there were other "Dragons" in other ages, and that there was possibly a "female dragon", except that it was a "different" soul then the one tied to Rand.

Either way, whatever the creators of the show said, what changed?

Is Joshua female?

 

Speaking strictly for the show, Rafe and Co. have said that the reincarnation of souls in the WoT world is no longer gendered, meaning that someone who was born as a man in a previous life could be reborn as a woman, and vice versa.

[SinisterDeath]

47 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Speaking strictly for the show, Rafe and Co. have said that the reincarnation of souls in the WoT world is no longer gendered, meaning that someone who was born as a man in a previous life could be reborn as a woman, and vice versa.

Correct, but again. Is Joshua female?
Is Egwene Male?

Is Thom Female?

 

At this point in time, the major characters haven't been gender swapped, and nothing's really changed as far as who the dragon is, the Dragon's "power", or anything regarding which side of the power you can access when you're born a man or a woman.

[DigificWriter]

7 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Correct, but again. Is Joshua female?
Is Egwene Male?

Is Thom Female?

 

At this point in time, the major characters haven't been gender swapped, and nothing's really changed as far as who the dragon is, the Dragon's "power", or anything regarding which side of the power you can access when you're born a man or a woman.

 

My point is that Rafe and the rest of the people involved in making the TV series, by their own admission, wrote and crafted the narrative in such a way that they altered the gender-centric nature of reincarnation as Robert Jordan conceived it, thus making it legitimately possible for the Dragon to have literally been anyone, male or female, within the world of the show, and even though they didn't go so far as to actually change the true identity of the Dragon, they very much could have had they so chose and would have been able to justify and explain such a drastic change within the narrative context of the world.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

My point is that Rafe and the rest of the people involved in making the TV series, by their own admission, wrote and crafted the narrative in such a way that they altered the gender-centric nature of reincarnation as Robert Jordan conceived it, thus making it legitimately possible for the Dragon to have literally been anyone, male or female, within the world of the show, and even though they didn't go so far as to actually change the true identity of the Dragon, they very much could have had they so chose and would have been able to justify and explain such a drastic change within the narrative context of the world.

What was the theme of the marketing for Season 1?

 

"Who is the dragon reborn?"

"Is it a woman that'll save us, or a man who'll destroy us all?"

 

What we have, was a carefully crafted narrative that they fed to us, the book readers, that changed what the Aes Sedai believe about the world and how it works. How much of those changes are actually changes behind the scenes, remains to be seen. (One of the obvious changes is linking no longer being safe. That's massive, and implies that key characters may die, during the cleansing.)

 

We the book readers, know how all the rules work. 
 

We as viewers, are going to see characters in the show act like they know how everything works, and then hopefully as book readers we will exclaim "Well duh!" when the character is shocked as they find out what they thought was true was a lie the entire time. 

We're going to see that there has been a millennia long misinformation campaign orchestrated by the father of lies throughout the worlds history.

We're going to see doubt, and a lot of contradictory stories/prophecies... Because information is power. 

One benefit that the show runners have, is that they have the complete works to go through. 

They would know what weaves Ishamael would have access to in EotW that RJ hadn't really thought up yet.
They would be able to go extrapolate. How could Ishy have used that weave throughout history to distort people's perceptions of reality? Sow seeds of chaos? Distrust? War? Famine? Discreetly alter prophecies that were written down and locked away in dusty vaults?

[DojoToad]

8 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

What was the theme of the marketing for Season 1?

 

"Who is the dragon reborn?"

"Is it a woman that'll save us, or a man who'll destroy us all?"

 

What we have, was a carefully crafted narrative that they fed to us, the book readers, that changed what the Aes Sedai believe about the world and how it works. How much of those changes are actually changes behind the scenes, remains to be seen. (One of the obvious changes is linking no longer being safe. That's massive, and implies that key characters may die, during the cleansing.)

 

We the book readers, know how all the rules work. 
 

We as viewers, are going to see characters in the show act like they know how everything works, and then hopefully as book readers we will exclaim "Well duh!" when the character is shocked as they find out what they thought was true was a lie the entire time. 

We're going to see that there has been a millennia long misinformation campaign orchestrated by the father of lies throughout the worlds history.

We're going to see doubt, and a lot of contradictory stories/prophecies... Because information is power. 

One benefit that the show runners have, is that they have the complete works to go through. 

They would know what weaves Ishamael would have access to in EotW that RJ hadn't really thought up yet.
They would be able to go extrapolate. How could Ishy have used that weave throughout history to distort people's perceptions of reality? Sow seeds of chaos? Distrust? War? Famine? Discreetly alter prophecies that were written down and locked away in dusty vaults?

I think you are giving the show runner and his team a lot more credit than they have earned

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I think you are giving the show runner and his team a lot more credit than they have earned

Or you've given their team to little?

[DojoToad]

26 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Or you've given their team to little?

Perhaps.  Time will tell.