Where will S2 take the WoT

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

I believe most of these details to be fairly minor in the grand scheme of the world of The Wheel of Time, if they are infact issues at all. The biggest change they made to the World was 2 changes to saidar, being able to be burnt out while linking and saidar users not being able to detect one another without actively channeling.

 

You consider them minor, others consider them major.  Different for everyone.

[Cipher]

16 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

Not this race stuff again.  There is no reason why EF cann't be as diverse it is in the show.  Check out Daniel Greene's and Mat Hatch's video on the subject.  But even in the text of the books it describes Cenn Buie as dark as an old root.  Egwene as having the same dark colour as her hair and even though she is described as pale in another book you can still have dark colouring and still be pale.

 

But yes, the Two Rivers in general has lost their extremely puritan status, I don't think this is going to have any effect on the story.

 

Blademasters;  You mean when Lan takes on a dozen or so Trollocs while Moiraine is channeling?  Or are you referring to Tam who is 20 years out of practice but manages to hold his own and was clearly winning until the Trolloc used his large stature and Tam's lack of room to Maneuver to win?  As for Nynaeve's first kill she got to get a solid sneak attack that luckily was a death blow otherwise the Trolloc wouldn't have let go as it dragged her into the pool.  I wouldn't count luck as the trait of a great warrior unless we are talking about Mat.  I am afraid I don't remember Nynaeve killing a second Trolloc so you will have to remind me.

 

The One Power is still clearly binary, while it wasn't addressed in season 1 I imagine they will bring it up during Egwene's/Nynaeve's training probably intersecting with Rand struggling alone.  The Origin shorts are considered canon and clearly address the dual nature of the source as well as Latra Posae Decume using the word Saidin in her conversation with LTT.  And yes I wish they would have had Moiraine respond with "I cannot teach you to channel as a Bird could not teach a fish to fly" when Rand asked to be trained, but the lack of said response does not mean the Source is not split.

 

Rage Healing;  Not sure which books you have been reading as Nynaeve had been healing unconsciously for years and her trigger would often be anger.

 

Cry Healing;  While poorly executed due to unfortunate circumstances we see plenty of channelers discover weaves they didn't know they could do. I don't believe this particular example will become an issue in the future.

 

Gaidin;  In the books, for the longest time, the only example we have of a warder is Lan.... from the PoV of mostly Lan.  Lan continues to be a stoic badass, particularly in front of the e5.  In private with Moiraine I would expect for him to be a bit more open.  As for Stepin, Maksim and Ivhon out of any warders I would think the Green Warders would have a more open personality.

 

"-Aes Sedai don't become despondent and borderline suicidal when their Gaidin die."  I am not sure which side you are arguing here.  I don't think we see an Aes Sedai lose their warder in the show during season 1 but in the books we know both from Alanna, Suian and Leane that losing a warder is an extremely painful process.

 

Sheinarans;  How are they incompetent in guarding the blight?  They lost guarding the pass in the show, they had nearly lost the battle in the books except for the timely intervention of a Deus ex Rand.  Or are you referring to Agelmar's initial attitude towards Moiraine?  While it is a change from the book once Moiraine announces her actual intention Agelmar apologizes and becomes a gracious host.

 

The Whitecloaks;  Yes, the Whitecloaks general look has some differences.  Instead of generic Knights Templar they dressed them more as Warrior Monks.  And while that band of Whitecloaks didn't have full armour while traveling around the woods we know that they will have armour when charging into battle for season 2.  The fullplate and chain look from the books is quite heavy and taxing on the horses unless you really need it.

 

I believe most of these details to be fairly minor in the grand scheme of the world of The Wheel of Time, if they are infact issues at all. The biggest change they made to the World was 2 changes to saidar, being able to be burnt out while linking and saidar users not being able to detect one another without actively channeling.

 

No isolated community is going to remain "diverse."  That is contrary to biology and historical reality.  It is not a criticism of casting or race, but rather world building.

 

IMO not showing Tam's skill was a big miss.  5 trollocs should have shown up and Tam skillfully dispatching 4 of them and getting overwhelmed. Then we could have Lan and Rand practicing the sword in 2nd episode with some dialog about the meaning of the heron.  

 

I miss remembered the Amazon WoT story with Kerene and Stepin.  I  thought Stepin was one of another Aes Sedai's warders and that he became despondent after his warder lover was killed.  Still hate the over blown funeral scene.

 

I could have sworn there was a scene in the first episode where Egwene and Nynaeve are confronted in an ally and Nynaeve dodges and stabs a trolloc in the side.  I will have to recheck that scene out.

 

Sheinarans are very reverential in the books to Aes Sedai and what kind of leader would turn down some extra fire power vs the forces of darkness.  1 of the great commanders?--not in the Amazon version.

 

Rage healing is never once described in any of the 14 books from what I remember.  It is quite contrary to what I have read in books 2-6 recently.

 

I am glad you like the series.  

 

If Egwene and Elayne become pillow friends I am out.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 hours ago, Cipher said:

I could have sworn there was a scene in the first episode where Egwene and Nynaeve are confronted in an ally and Nynaeve dodges and stabs a trolloc in the side.  I will have to recheck that scene out.

Nynaeve and Egwene are cornered by the trolloc and try to fight it with daggers when it is killed by Moiraine using the power.

[SilentRoamer]

On 3/16/2023 at 1:36 AM, Cipher said:

It starts in Emonds Field, which is supposed to be an isolated rural community where the blood of Manetheron runs deep. Should generally be of same ethnicity and they come into the wide world of differnces in their travels. The people of EF have puritan-like values which is revealed in Nynaeve's character who is an authority figure and comes across like a know-it-all church marm--condemning people for their speech and dress. The 2 Rivers in the show doesn't come across like that at all.

In the show:

-Blademasters can't fight off a trolloc while Wisdoms can kill them on 2 different occassions with a dagger.

-One Source of magic rather than the binary.

-Rage healing--in the books it is a complex weave that only few channelers can manage.

-Cry healing

-Gaidin aren't stone hard men devoted to their cause of protecting their Aes Sedai, but rather regular guys who get wrapped up in sexual relationships.

-Aes Sedai don't become despondent and boderline suicidal when their Gaidin die.

-Sheinarans are incompetent guardians of the blight.

-The white cloaks don't even dress correctly.  Should be suits of armor with white talbards and cloaks.  The clothes were good for Valda, but not the troops.

 

 

People just seem to get their knickers in a twist if you mention that the Two Rivers looks like a Modern  Cosmopolitan City - despite the fact that we know Rand was taller, paler and notably ginger and that this marked him out as having Aiel blood (why Loial and others consistently mistake him for Aeil). The funny thing is the Two Rivers should mostly be darker, so people arguing that somehow identifying this World Building problem is racist fail to recognise most people are arguing for a darker skinned homogeneity. With Rand being the exception which is exactly how the book plays out. 

Tam was really crapped on in my opinion, no way a Blademaster struggles against 1 Trolloc, even one out of shape and out of training. The Heron Mark must mean something. 

Regarding the "Mystery of the dragon" and inferring it could be a woman, there are over 40 references in the Karatheon cycle to Him/He/His - and not a single reference to the Dragon being female (because also if the Dragon was female she would channel Saidar and not be a threat) and also I am not sure how Moraine who has been hunting the Dragon for a lifetime would only bring a male Angreal (the little fat men) and not a female Angreal...

 

The healing tears of Nynaeve al Meara are poorly done. 

 

The funeral was awful, seeing Lan express such emotion outwardly is completely contrary to the spirt if his character. 

 

Agelmar was done dirty. 

 

Lets hope S2 is better, but yeah probably in for some sort of Egwene and Elayne becoming lovers - I highly doubt they will have Rand with his 3 wives and suspect it will be a polyamorous relationship to *cough* reflect the modern world we live in. *cough*

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

15 hours ago, Cipher said:

No isolated community is going to remain "diverse."  That is contrary to biology and historical reality.  It is not a criticism of casting or race, but rather world building.

And this has been discussed to death.
"Isolated" doesn't mean there's zero population movement, nor has the two rivers been genetically isolated for 3000 years.

The two rivers, is isolated in the sense that there's one way in, and one way out, except if you're willing to go over the mountains... which I believe a bunch of refugees a few books later did.

Go a bit north to Taren Ferry which is located in the Two Rivers, and it's criticized as a bunch of evil outlanders that's not really two rivers anymore. (This view is about their culture, not their race. They don't participate in Bel Tine, or a bunch of other festivals).

So again, they are not nearly as genetically isolated as some people like to believe.
If they were, it would be Alabama up in their neighborhood, and they should look different then the rest of Randland due to all the deformities from 50 generations of inbreeding. 

Finally, two rivers in the show isn't a cosmopolitan. 

Does everyone in the show dress similar? In a similar style?

Do they all speak with the same relative accent?

 

RJ's world building was 100% about culture, dress, and language, not race.

[SilentRoamer]

So RJ never had physical characteristic associated with particular nations or groups?

 

The Aiel aren't generally taller and fairer than say the Domani?

 

Whilst RJ didn't emphasize racial characteristics, to say that the different nations of Randland wouldn't have racial differences (as described by RJ), seems pretty ludicrous to me. 

 

Why do people mistake Rand for an Aiel? Because of his culture?

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

So RJ never had physical characteristic associated with particular nations or groups?

 

The Aiel aren't generally taller and fairer than say the Domani?

 

Whilst RJ didn't emphasize racial characteristics, to say that the different nations of Randland wouldn't have racial differences (as described by RJ), seems pretty ludicrous to me. 

 

Why do people mistake Rand for an Aiel? Because of his culture?

Aiel, Seafolk, and Sharans are the 3 groups with the most shared characteristics.

The rest of the nations have a generalized physical characteristic (hooked nose), that is just that. Generalized.
You see someone with a hooked nose, you might assume they're from a certain area.
The give away is their dress, their speech.

Remember, a queen of Andor looked like she could belong on a Seafolk ship.
Yet, Elayne and her Mother are both pale strawberry blondes.

Genetics in WoT, don't have to make sense.

[WhiteVeils]

5 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

People just seem to get their knickers in a twist if you mention that the Two Rivers looks like a Modern  Cosmopolitan City - despite the fact that we know Rand was taller, paler and notably ginger and that this marked him out as having Aiel blood (why Loial and others consistently mistake him for Aeil). The funny thing is the Two Rivers should mostly be darker, so people arguing that somehow identifying this World Building problem is racist fail to recognise most people are arguing for a darker skinned homogeneity. With Rand being the exception which is exactly how the book plays out. 

 

And exactly how the show plays out. Pretty much everyone we see in the Two Rivers has dark hair and dark eyes, just like the books.  Rand is taller, paler, and notably ginger, unlike anyone else in the Two Rivers.  Books don't mention skin color.

Quote

Tam was really crapped on in my opinion, no way a Blademaster struggles against 1 Trolloc, even one out of shape and out of training. The Heron Mark must mean something. 

This was required out of a practical consideration. There was not room inside the house set for multiple opponents at once, especially in the giant trolloc costumes, which was on stilts. There was not even room for extra trolloc bodies on the floor.  They could make the house bigger, but then it would look like Rand lived in a palatial mansion.  They could make the trollocs smaller, but then they would not look nearly so intimidating.   Instead, they used the set as the inhibitor to Tam's blademastery. He was doing just fine, but the trolloc was stronger and got him pushed up against the wall where he did not have the freedom to move.  Every non-reader said that Tam looked very badass, so that requirement was met.

 

Quote

Regarding the "Mystery of the dragon" and inferring it could be a woman, there are over 40 references in the Karatheon cycle to Him/He/His - and not a single reference to the Dragon being female (because also if the Dragon was female she would channel Saidar and not be a threat) and also I am not sure how Moraine who has been hunting the Dragon for a lifetime would only bring a male Angreal (the little fat men) and not a female Angreal...

 

The Karatheon cycle has not be read in the show at all, and may not be at all the same.  Even if it were the same, 'he' is used in many ancient works as a gender neutral term.  This piece of lore is changed in the show to get Egwene  and Nynaeve into the story faster and explain why they are taken to Fal Dara when they could be left in Tar Valon.  It was changed to save time that could be spent on more important things.

 

Quote

The healing tears of Nynaeve al Meara are poorly done. 

Tears didn't heal anybody in the show.  In the books, Nynaeve routinely heals when angry, and certainly has the raw power to heal multiple people at once even if she didn't use it.  Egwene's healing with the One Power in episode 8 was forced by COVID changes made the day of and, as has oft been stated before, was supposed to be CPR.  CPR requires touching between the actors, and an intimacy coordinator.  The magical healing did not require the actors to be near each other.  However, that said, this change has the potential to foreshadow the Flame of Tar Valon weave in Memory of Light if they decide to do it that way and make the best of it.

 

Quote

The funeral was awful, seeing Lan express such emotion outwardly is completely contrary to the spirt if his character. 

Lan doing his duty, whatever it was, is very much in character.  Lan also had deep emotions that he hid; he was not actually emotionless.  The show created a scenario where duty required Lan to express emotions that would normally be hidden in order for the audience to see that he did, in fact, have those hidden emotions and was not just a stone.  

 

Quote

Agelmar was done dirty. 

 

He will likely be the only ruler of any type that we see the Aes Sedai interact with before the Dragon becomes widely known. By having him respond with independence, and then Sheinaran courtesy, they help the audience understand the relationship of most royalty to the White Tower, not just Sheinar...that the kingdoms are independent of the Tower, not actually controlled by them, but then have different attitudes of respect towards it.

[SilentRoamer]

On 3/17/2023 at 5:06 PM, WhiteVeils said:

 

The Karatheon cycle has not be read in the show at all, and may not be at all the same.  Even if it were the same, 'he' is used in many ancient works as a gender neutral term.  This piece of lore is changed in the show to get Egwene  and Nynaeve into the story faster and explain why they are taken to Fal Dara when they could be left in Tar Valon.  It was changed to save time that could be spent on more important things.

 

 

Ok - so are the showrunners going to disregard the Karetheon Cycle along with all of the other nations prophecies? 

 

How does the Dragon potentially being a woman and a channeler of Saidar even makes any sense whatsoever in RJ's story? 

 

You can handwave away plenty of my other points but this one is literally ridiculous. It was just an attempt to modernise the show and insert diversity and equity rubbish into a fantasy show about a MAN whose soul is reborn and who is destined to die and either break or remake the world. 

 

I don't know why people defend this point so passionately - RJ NEVER intended for anyone to believe the Dragon could be a woman and could channel Saidar, it literally works against the Binary themes RJ was so fond of. 

 

I'm going to give the show one last chance in S2 - but honestly they have to work hard to get this show back on track imo. Otherwise its just another beloved thing ruined by people who never loved it to begin with. 

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

Ok - so are the showrunners going to disregard the Karetheon Cycle along with all of the other nations prophecies? 

We saw "the book" in episode... 6? 
We don't know if they'll exposition dump the prophecies, or just mention them as something that exists without saying them out loud.

 

2 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

How does the Dragon potentially being a woman and a channeler of Saidar even makes any sense whatsoever in RJ's story? 

 

Quote

Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

This is about Mat.
 

Quote

When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known.
When the Fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown. 

About Mat & Perrin

Some of the the prophecies in the Karetheon Cycle we know about, weren't about the dragon at all. Who's to say how many of those prophecies were about the dragon? How many were about Mat, Perrin, Egwene, or Nynaeve? How many of them were all attributed to the dragon in some way, but until he came no one could filter out which were relevant and which weren't?

I see this as the Writers going "Hey! They clearly had prophecies about Mat & Perrin, lets make sure the waters are muddied by adding prophecies about Egwene and Nynaeve!".

 

And that's how you get a bunch of vague prophecies that don't make sense until the events happen and you fit the pieces to match the events.

 

2 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

You can handwave away plenty of my other points but this one is literally ridiculous. It was just an attempt to modernise the show and insert diversity and equity rubbish into a fantasy show about a MAN whose soul is reborn and who is destined to die and either break or remake the world. 

Did I hand wave your prior points, or did I give a damn good reason why?

"Insert diversity and equity rubbish".
Are you one of those guys that were mad at Tom Morello from Rage against the Machine for being political, while completely missing who the machine was raging at?

 

2 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

I don't know why people defend this point so passionately - RJ NEVER intended for anyone to believe the Dragon could be a woman and could channel Saidar, it literally works against the Binary themes RJ was so fond of. 

RJ never intended for the Amyrlin to be as powerless as Morgrase, yet he approved of the Wheel of Time Video Game that did just that. 🤷‍♂️

 

2 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

I'm going to give the show one last chance in S2 - but honestly they have to work hard to get this show back on track imo. Otherwise its just another beloved thing ruined by people who never loved it to begin with. 

Who are you to say what other's love or don't love?
 

 

[SilentRoamer]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Some of the the prophecies in the Karetheon Cycle we know about, weren't about the dragon at all. Who's to say how many of those prophecies were about the dragon? How many were about Mat, Perrin, Egwene, or Nynaeve? How many of them were all attributed to the dragon in some way, but until he came no one could filter out which were relevant and which weren't?

 

 

Yes but all of the prophecies that were about the dragon - across all cultures, frame his as male, because he has to be male for the whole Dragon Reborn plot to make any sense at all. Why would a woman risk breaking the world? Women can already channel and have a power base. The whole idea behind the Dragon channeling is that Saidin is tainted - not Saidar. 

 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Did I hand wave your prior points, or did I give a damn good reason why?

"Insert diversity and equity rubbish".
Are you one of those guys that were mad at Tom Morello from Rage against the Machine for being political, while completely missing who the machine was raging at?

 

 

 

I like Rage Against the Machine but I literally have no idea what you are talking about. So no i'm not "one of those guys" - whatever broader political point you were trying to score. 

 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Who are you to say what other's love or don't love?
 

 

 

A person with an opinion based on what I see. Just like you. 

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

Yes but all of the prophecies that were about the dragon - across all cultures, frame his as male, because he has to be male for the whole Dragon Reborn plot to make any sense at all. Why would a woman risk breaking the world? Women can already channel and have a power base. The whole idea behind the Dragon channeling is that Saidin is tainted - not Saidar. 

All of the prophecies we know about.

 

 

3 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

I like Rage Against the Machine but I literally have no idea what you are talking about. So no i'm not "one of those guys" - whatever broader political point you were trying to score. 

There are a large number of people that were mad at Tom Morello when he tweeted stuff in support of movements like the BLM and other such politics. Some were so mad, they bought all his records and burned them.

Those same people that were mad at Tom for talking politics, (who has a bachelor's degree in political science from Harvard) were part of the endless masses that apparently never consider what song lyrics mean, and thus didn't understand who the machine they were raging against was, or who "Some of those that work forces Are the same that burn crosses" meant in the song "killing in the name".
It's similar to how people completely miss the irony of singing "born in the U.S.A" at an ultra patriotic event. 

 

The reason I brought any of that up, was you said "It was just an attempt to modernize the show and insert diversity and equity rubbish into a fantasy show", which honestly feels like the same type of misunderstanding of the source material.

 

End of the day, the Dragon is still Male and he very well might break the world to save it. We can definitely discuss how crappy or good the mystery plot they baked into the show was or wasn't, but the diversity and equity rubbish? 

Well, RJ purposely created a world of many cultures. I can't speak for him and what he'd think of the "diverse" casting, but Harriet his Wife who arguably knew him better then any of the fans, hasn't spoken ill of any of the casting choices, or the "equity" injected into the fantasy show. I think that speaks volumes.

 

21 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

A person with an opinion based on what I see. Just like you. 

It's a crappy opinion.

That's the equivalent of you saying "SD, you HATE the WOT because you disagree with MY interpretation on [Insert some pedantic One Power rule/interpretation on how something works].

You can't know how others feel about something just because you don't like what they created.

[SilentRoamer]

22 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

All of the prophecies we know about.

 

 

Or to paraphrase that: "all the prophecies RJ wrote about".

 

23 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

All of the prophecies we know about.

 

 

There are a large number of people that were mad at Tom Morello when he tweeted stuff in support of movements like the BLM and other such politics. Some were so mad, they bought all his records and burned them.

Those same people that were mad at Tom for talking politics, (who has a bachelor's degree in political science from Harvard) were part of the endless masses that apparently never consider what song lyrics mean, and thus didn't understand who the machine they were raging against was, or who "Some of those that work forces Are the same that burn crosses" meant in the song "killing in the name".
It's similar to how people completely miss the irony of singing "born in the U.S.A" at an ultra patriotic event. 

 

 

As someone who enjoys RatM I am not surprised they are supportive of BLM or other movements with a large support base on the Left of politics. It has no bearing on my enjoyment of their music. 

 

24 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The reason I brought any of that up, was you said "It was just an attempt to modernize the show and insert diversity and equity rubbish into a fantasy show", which honestly feels like the same type of misunderstanding of the source material.

 

End of the day, the Dragon is still Male and he very well might break the world to save it. We can definitely discuss how crappy or good the mystery plot they baked into the show was or wasn't, but the diversity and equity rubbish? 

Well, RJ purposely created a world of many cultures. I can't speak for him and what he'd think of the "diverse" casting, but Harriet his Wife who arguably knew him better then any of the fans, hasn't spoken ill of any of the casting choices, or the "equity" injected into the fantasy show. I think that speaks volumes.

 

Yes - diversity and equity RUBBISH. Modern concepts thrown into the mix to appease certain sensibilities. Another example - the relationship between Moraine and Siuan. Definitely has roots in the text, but the idea that Moraine and Suian would be carrying on and risking the mission that the world rests on - to insert some modern relationships, is ridiculous and runs counter to what we know about their characters. I find it most likely that Avi, Elayne or Min will end up in a sexual relationship. 

 

Yes RJ did create a world of many cultures, which is why making a community isolated for thousands of years racially diverse is stupid - the world and its peoples have a tonne of racial, cultural, linguistic and moral differences. There is diversity in the Wheel of Time without having to shoehorn in modernity. 

 

We did not need to reflect modernity in the Two Rivers is my larger point - because RJ already built a large, rich and diverse world. 

 

At this point I am resigned to this being a different turning of the wheel, because that's the only leeway I can give Rafe. 

 

So you may view my opinion as crappy - your making objective claims for a subjective opinion, as much as you may think my opinion is crappy, I can look at yours in the same way. Viewing figures in the end and whether this gets canned will be the objective measure. 

[SinisterDeath]

25 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

Or to paraphrase that: "all the prophecies RJ wrote about".

We know about, chances are, there's more in his notes we haven't seen.

In book, we know there's a LOT of them, but we're only given a couple of pages worth of prophecies.

 

25 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

As someone who enjoys RatM I am not surprised they are supportive of BLM or other movements with a large support base on the Left of politics. It has no bearing on my enjoyment of their music. 

Awesome. 

 

25 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

Yes - diversity and equity RUBBISH. Modern concepts thrown into the mix to appease certain sensibilities. Another example - the relationship between Moraine and Siuan. Definitely has roots in the text, but the idea that Moraine and Suian would be carrying on and risking the mission that the world rests on - to insert some modern relationships, is ridiculous and runs counter to what we know about their characters.  

Or you know, the writers weren't born in the 1860s, so they expanded a canonically gay relationship as an exposition dump of what was going on in Moiraine's head since we can't read her thoughts?

 

Quote

I find it most likely that Avi, Elayne or Min will end up in a sexual relationship.

In the books, I'm pretty sure there's an scene where Rand's making love to one of them, and the others are drinking themselves under a table because they're feeling what the others are feeling. That's one hell of a sexual relationship between multiple people if you ask me.

 

Regardless, You might be surprised at how unsexual their relationship will be.

25 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

Yes RJ did create a world of many cultures, which is why making a community isolated for thousands of years racially diverse is stupid - the world and its peoples have a tonne of racial, cultural, linguistic and moral differences. There is diversity in the Wheel of Time without having to shoehorn in modernity. 

Prove to me, with text in the books where it explicitly says they were genetically isolated for over a thousand years?

 

25 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

At this point I am resigned to this being a different turning of the wheel, because that's the only leeway I can give Rafe. 

Brandon Sanderson told fans day 1, think of this as another turning of a wheel. 

What do we know about the tapestry of Ages?

The picture remains the same, but the details of the threads change if you were to compare the two side by side.

 

25 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

So you may view my opinion as crappy - your making objective claims for a subjective opinion, as much as you may think my opinion is crappy, I can look at yours in the same way. Viewing figures in the end and whether this gets canned will be the objective measure. 

Again, there is opinion, and then there is stating to know what others think or believe. Two different things.

[Skipp]

7 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

 

Ok - so are the showrunners going to disregard the Karetheon Cycle along with all of the other nations prophecies? 

 

How does the Dragon potentially being a woman and a channeler of Saidar even makes any sense whatsoever in RJ's story? 

 

You can handwave away plenty of my other points but this one is literally ridiculous. It was just an attempt to modernise the show and insert diversity and equity rubbish into a fantasy show about a MAN whose soul is reborn and who is destined to die and either break or remake the world. 

 

I don't know why people defend this point so passionately - RJ NEVER intended for anyone to believe the Dragon could be a woman and could channel Saidar, it literally works against the Binary themes RJ was so fond of. 

 

I'm going to give the show one last chance in S2 - but honestly they have to work hard to get this show back on track imo. Otherwise its just another beloved thing ruined by people who never loved it to begin with. 

The thing you have to remember is that the Dragon was never going to be female in the show.  The angle the writers were using was that information is not perfect.  After 3000 years of translating and re-translating, somewhat, vague prophecies the gender of the Dragon reborn was not a 100% certainty.  Remember that the characters in the world don't have a manual about how this stuff works.. 

 

If I recall correctly people feared the idea of the Dragon because he was prophesied to break the world again.  I don't think the Taint was specified as the reason.  Now people in the world assumed he would break the world because of the Taint but that isn't how Rand broke the world at all.

 

People making imperfect assumptions based on the information, coloured by the bias, they have is kinda a key theme to RJ's Wheel of Time.

[SinisterDeath]

10 minutes ago, Skipp said:

People making imperfect assumptions based on the information, coloured by the bias, they have is kinda a key theme to RJ's Wheel of Time.

1000% this.

 

I recall something like 15 years ago, one of the most used words when discussing book theories was "red-herring".

[A Memory Of Why]

Regarding the prophesy issues, it seems to me that it's intuitively "obvious" to the casual observer that it's some kind of Ballsy shadowy manipulation.

 

Ishy's been causing all sorts of problems for thousands of years, makes sense he'd mess with the lights prophesys. Especially in a way that further swells the arrogance of these so called AS.

 

Would be very interesting.. think about it guys!

 

An imaginary character, who cosplays as "The Father of Lies", with one sentence could cause such.. chaos.

[WhiteVeils]

We know darkfriends are actively crushing history in this turning of the wheel..."all records of the Eye of the World have been removed from the Tower Library by darkfriends."

[SilentRoamer]

At no point in any of the books, doe any of the characters think the Dragon reborn could be a man. You can do mental gymnastics about us not having access to all of the prophecies and a lack of information etc. but that particular plot point was added, without any good reason and made absolutely no sense.

 

Why would Moraine bring a male 'angreal? Why would the prophecies be all about a man? Why would the items in the prophecies (such as Callandor) channel Saidin? It seems obvious to me that RJ never intended the gender of the Dragin to be in question - this is modern day politics making its way into Fantasy. 

 

Regards to the Two Rivers being genetically isolated - I'm not doubting there were people who moved to the TR and became a part of their people. However, geographically they are at a bit of a dead end, they are so isolated that they consider Tairen Ferry people to be from another planet. It's not explicitly stated - because RJ didnt go into racial characteristics, but it seems obvious for anyone with a basic understanding of biology and genetics. 

 

I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one but if they don't improve the direction of the show it will ge tcanned - and honestly I don't want that to happen. I want the show to be a success and inspire a generation of new WoT readers. I live in hope. 

[SinisterDeath]

27 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

Regards to the Two Rivers being genetically isolated - I'm not doubting there were people who moved to the TR and became a part of their people. However, geographically they are at a bit of a dead end, they are so isolated that they consider Tairen Ferry people to be from another planet. It's not explicitly stated - because RJ didnt go into racial characteristics, but it seems obvious for anyone with a basic understanding of biology and genetics. 

Anyone that understands biology and genetics, knows that if they were as genetically isolated as you make them out to be, they would make the people in the Hills have eyes look normal.

[SilentRoamer]

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Anyone that understands biology and genetics, knows that if they were as genetically isolated as you make them out to be, they would make the people in the Hills have eyes look normal.

 

Weird how the "Old blood of manatheren" runs strong in the Emonds Fielders - but they're also racially diverse? I'm not claiming a completely isolated community, I am saying that their relative isolation, mixed with their mistrust of outsiders and the stubborn streak (which runs in their blood) leads them to be a naturally isolated and racially homogenous peoples. 

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

Weird how the "Old blood of manatheren" runs strong in the Emonds Fielders - but they're also racially diverse?

"Old blood of manatheren" and "genetic memory", isn't really, a real concept for human genetics, is it now? It's almost like *gasp* it's all fantasy! 

 

So again, find me one time in the books, they use the word homogenous to describe the racial appearance of everyone in the two rivers? 

 

 

[Skipp]

51 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

At no point in any of the books, doe any of the characters think the Dragon reborn could be a man. You can do mental gymnastics about us not having access to all of the prophecies and a lack of information etc. but that particular plot point was added, without any good reason and made absolutely no sense.

 

Why would Moraine bring a male 'angreal? Why would the prophecies be all about a man? Why would the items in the prophecies (such as Callandor) channel Saidin? It seems obvious to me that RJ never intended the gender of the Dragin to be in question - this is modern day politics making its way into Fantasy. 

 

 

A good reason for the change was to ensure the ensemble status of the cast and of course because It was about them all.

 

Moiraine was covering her bases when she decided to bring the Sa'angreal. If the Dragon turned out to be a woman she could be trained/guided/circled and just generally helped.  If the Dragon turned out to be man they would need to rely on brute force.  Which might even be a neat reference to the differences between channeling Saidar and Saidin.

[DojoToad]

23 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

 

Weird how the "Old blood of manatheren" runs strong in the Emonds Fielders - but they're also racially diverse? I'm not claiming a completely isolated community, I am saying that their relative isolation, mixed with their mistrust of outsiders and the stubborn streak (which runs in their blood) leads them to be a naturally isolated and racially homogenous peoples. 

Strong in the old blood could be 10% of the population.  Or even 5%.  To have Manetheran's blood basically made some Emond's Fielders super heroes (in a fantasy way).  To have even a small percentage of folks with the ability to manifest 'lost' or unusual abilities would be a mother lode for the Aes Sedai to study, harness, or whatever.  Still lots of room for 'normals'.

 

Plus  - do we know the diversity of Manetheran's population?  I imagine it was huge and very diverse before the trollocs wiped them out

Edited March 22, 2023 by DojoToad

[SilentRoamer]

15 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

"Old blood of manatheren" and "genetic memory", isn't really, a real concept for human genetics, is it now? It's almost like *gasp* it's all fantasy! 

 

So again, find me one time in the books, they use the word homogenous to describe the racial appearance of everyone in the two rivers? 

 

 

 

RJ doesn't. But he does have Rand being a standout from everyone else in the village, because Rand is a clear outlier to the otherwise homogeneity of the EF. It's pretty implicit in the text. 

 

I don't want to keep debating this point because we aren't going to agree but I appreciate your perspective.