Is it bad for WOT if LOTR is a huge success?

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, Chivalry said:

I enjoyed Episode 8 of RoP. In fact, I enjoyed the entire season. It was not a perfect show...they stuffed too much into the finale, developments that (in theory) should have taken more time. Still, I'm looking at the show as a long movie, and things move much more quickly on the big screen than they do on the small screen (or Robert Jordan's world).  All things considered, the series did remind me of how much I enjoyed reading Tolkien as a teen/young man and how much I enjoyed the LotR movies.

 

With all the pre-release criticism and all the resultant toxicity (not to mention the bizarre ad campaign), I had relatively low expectations. The finale left me and my kids (teens) looking forward to the next season.

 

I'm hoping WoT Season 2 steps up its game.

 

Yes.  I was on the fence the whole season, but the finale really did it for me.  Not perfect by any means, but it brought storylines together without leaving lame cliffhangers (cough*Loial*cough).  S1 storylines got wrapped up nicely while still keeping interest up in what happens next.  Looking forward to S2.

[templar7]

On 9/21/2022 at 3:34 AM, templar7 said:

If anything it should help level the playing field -budget wise- between the two shows. They put 80% of their cards on lotr and a small fraction of that on the long shot WoT.  Hopefully we see some rings money funneled Rand's way.

Rings of Power had a blank cheque budget and somehow missed the target entirely.  By comparison or not, the Wheel of time is a huge success.  Despite having a much smaller budget, fewer episodes and casting turmoil, Rafe delivered a better show...

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/10/16/the-wheel-of-time-shouldve-gotten-amazons-billion-dollar-budget-instead-rings-of-power/

 

This article perfectly encapsulates my point... WOT is the superior show.

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, templar7 said:

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/10/16/the-wheel-of-time-shouldve-gotten-amazons-billion-dollar-budget-instead-rings-of-power/

 

This article perfectly encapsulates my point... WOT is the superior show.

I don't think WoT actually needs that big budget. RoP was pretty but lacked in everything else.

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, templar7 said:

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/10/16/the-wheel-of-time-shouldve-gotten-amazons-billion-dollar-budget-instead-rings-of-power/

 

This article perfectly encapsulates my point... WOT is the superior show.

Thanks for the article.  I do agree that Amazon should be focusing on both shows a little more equally.  Lord of the Rings is the far far bigger name and will always get the majority of attention by the studio but the lack of interest that Amazon seems to have towards WoT is disheartening.  They barely marketed the show and during The Dusty Wheels coverage of NYCC Sarah Nakamura was in chat and said something to effect of "I have words for how the marketing was performed".

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, templar7 said:

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/10/16/the-wheel-of-time-shouldve-gotten-amazons-billion-dollar-budget-instead-rings-of-power/

 

This article perfectly encapsulates my point... WOT is the superior show.

Couldn't disagree more.  But glad you found an article you liked.

[templar7]

On 9/21/2022 at 3:34 AM, templar7 said:

If anything it should help level the playing field -budget wise- between the two shows. They put 80% of their cards on lotr and a small fraction of that on the long shot WoT.  Hopefully we see some rings money funneled Rand's way.

Rings of Power had a blank cheque budget and somehow missed the target entirely.  By comparison or not, the Wheel of time is a huge success.  Despite having a much smaller budget, fewer episodes and casting turmoil, Rafe delivered a better show...

 

On 10/17/2022 at 4:29 AM, DojoToad said:

Couldn't disagree more.  But glad you found an article you liked.

I'm flattered you care so much about my self confidence.

Disagree with what? That wot is the better show, or that the budgets are disproportionately allocated? What am I missing here? lol

[templar7]

On 10/17/2022 at 12:15 AM, Skipp said:

Thanks for the article.  I do agree that Amazon should be focusing on both shows a little more equally.  Lord of the Rings is the far far bigger name and will always get the majority of attention by the studio but the lack of interest that Amazon seems to have towards WoT is disheartening.  They barely marketed the show and during The Dusty Wheels coverage of NYCC Sarah Nakamura was in chat and said something to effect of "I have words for how the marketing was performed".

For sure. I get the fact that the brand power is way higher.

And to you point: We still dont have a release date. I hope we see a little more parody between the two franchises.

[templar7]

On 10/16/2022 at 11:28 PM, DaddyFinn said:

On 10/16/2022 at 9:40 PM, templar7 said:

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/10/16/the-wheel-of-time-shouldve-gotten-amazons-billion-dollar-budget-instead-rings-of-power/

 

This article perfectly encapsulates my point... WOT is the superior show.

I don't think WoT actually needs that big budget. RoP was pretty but lacked in everything else.

I do agree that the Wheel of Time doesn't necessarily need as big a budget as Rings. We both agree that (more money) doesn't ensure a home run on it's own. In fact -and to your point- what Rafe was able to do with far less resources proves that fact.

I just think with a similar commitment, tWoT would be a grand slam. Objectively the failures I saw in season one were almost exclusively editing and special effects.

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, templar7 said:

 

I'm flattered you care so much about my self confidence.

Disagree with what? That wot is the better show, or that the budgets are disproportionately allocated? What am I missing here? lol

That WoT was the better show. I found RoP to be far superior. Sorry I wasn’t clear. 

[templar7]

11 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

4 hours ago, templar7 said:

I'm flattered you care so much about my self confidence.

Disagree with what? That wot is the better show, or that the budgets are disproportionately allocated? What am I missing here? lol

That WoT was the better show. I found RoP to be far superior. Sorry I wasn’t clear. 

So you're the one..

Edited October 21, 2022 by templar7
grammer

[DojoToad]

56 minutes ago, templar7 said:

So you're the one..

I always have been unique.  🙂

[notpropaganda73]

Daniel Greene sums it up for me. Full spoilers in the video.

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I found RoP to be far superior.

Surprising, eh? 😉 I can't find many positives in the first season. It just felt so pointless.

[DojoToad]

4 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Surprising, eh? 😉 I can't find many positives in the first season. It just felt so pointless.

Very surprising.  I'm a fan of both worlds.  As I've said in other threads, I think a big difference for me is that I know the source material for WoT so much better than LotR.  And I know almost nothing of the appendices that RoP was based on.

 

Not saying RoP is a great show (it had its problems) - just much better than WoT.  For whatever one person's viewpoint is worth...

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Very surprising.  I'm a fan of both worlds.  As I've said in other threads, I think a big difference for me is that I know the source material for WoT so much better than LotR.  And I know almost nothing of the appendices that RoP was based on.

 

Not saying RoP is a great show (it had its problems) - just much better than WoT.  For whatever one person's viewpoint is worth...

 

In terms of faithfulness to the source; Rings of Power didn't just eliminate a few towns, and add a new stop at a location they would have rather avoided like WoT did. They literally rewrote a millennia of history, changed the importance of Mithril, and a whole slew of other stuff that if it had happened to WoT, fans heads would be exploding in anger.

 

Isn't it interesting though that if you can separate yourself from the source, how those changes largely become meaningless?

[DojoToad]

11 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

In terms of faithfulness to the source; Rings of Power didn't just eliminate a few towns, and add a new stop at a location they would have rather avoided like WoT did. They literally rewrote a millennia of history, changed the importance of Mithril, and a whole slew of other stuff that if it had happened to WoT, fans heads would be exploding in anger.

 

Isn't it interesting though that if you can separate yourself from the source, how those changes largely become meaningless?

Exactly!  Without the source material, it falls back to writing, production quality, or whatever is most important to the individual.

[notpropaganda73]

18 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Exactly!  Without the source material, it falls back to writing, production quality, or whatever is most important to the individual.

 

I know you are saying you are much closer to the source material for WoT, but just as two standalone shows the only area that RoP is better than WoT is the production quality in my opinion. WoT probably a 6/10 for me (and significantly downgraded because of the finale, had they executed the finale better I'd have been delighted with S1) whereas RoP... probably 3/10? I'm just left having no interest in whatever they have planned going forward.

 

I'm a huge fan of both worlds and I was very relaxed about the story they would tell in RoP and how they would have to go about it (considering all the rights issues), but what we got was so scattered and outright bad at times I find very few redeeming qualities. At least with WoT I had some serious high points (personally) and there was really nothing in RoP S1 that had me thinking "well at least we got that" and looking forward to S2. The only thing that came close really was seeing Numenor realised on screen, but even that, after the initial excitement, felt like a pretty small city rather than the civilisation it is described as. Though the whole show suffers from feeling very small/empty imo. 

 

 

[DojoToad]

52 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I know you are saying you are much closer to the source material for WoT, but just as two standalone shows the only area that RoP is better than WoT is the production quality in my opinion. WoT probably a 6/10 for me (and significantly downgraded because of the finale, had they executed the finale better I'd have been delighted with S1) whereas RoP... probably 3/10? I'm just left having no interest in whatever they have planned going forward.

 

I'm a huge fan of both worlds and I was very relaxed about the story they would tell in RoP and how they would have to go about it (considering all the rights issues), but what we got was so scattered and outright bad at times I find very few redeeming qualities. At least with WoT I had some serious high points (personally) and there was really nothing in RoP S1 that had me thinking "well at least we got that" and looking forward to S2. The only thing that came close really was seeing Numenor realised on screen, but even that, after the initial excitement, felt like a pretty small city rather than the civilisation it is described as. Though the whole show suffers from feeling very small/empty imo. 

In the end, a lot of this comes down to personal likes/dislikes.

 

With WoT, even with removing myself from source material as best I could, there were just too many 'basics' that bothered me: fight choreography was terrible (with the exception of blood snow), cliffhangers at season end - is Moiraine stilled or shielded, is Loial dead - internal to the season I'm okay with the cliffhangers between scenes and/or episodes, but at season end it just takes me back to re-runs of 1950's and 60's serials.  Miracle healings in the Aes Sedai Camp and at Tarwin's Gap by untrained channelers.  Build up to how much can be done with the power, don't show it all in S1. Etc.

 

With RoP, I didn't think it was the greatest show but it was always good enough for me to watch the next episode - I will walk away if I don't like something.  There were some highlights throughout the season - a big one for me was the nod to capoeira when the slaves fought against the orcs with their chains.  And the finale put the icing on the cake for me.  The season's storylines were tied up for each character while still letting us know there was more to come for them - and without resorting to cliffhangers (other than Isildur).  It had problems: I could have done with 50% less Harfoots.  And swimming to Middle Earth - please!  Galadriel's training 'fight' with the young Numenorean soldiers was a bit over the top as well - but still better than most of what I saw in WoT.  Overall, the show was fun and more enjoyable than WoT.

 

Again - my personal viewpoint and I understand that other people have completely different views.  Still fun to talk about...

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

It had problems: I could have done with 50% less Harfoots.

This is where we disagree the most.

The show needed 500% more Harfoots.

If the show was just Harfoots/Stranger & Elrond/Durin, I'd be content to call it a great show.

[DojoToad]

27 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

This is where we disagree the most.

The show needed 500% more Harfoots.

If the show was just Harfoots/Stranger & Elrond/Durin, I'd be content to call it a great show.

Lol.  To each their own.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

12 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I could have done with 50% less Harfoots.

Do you mean that the Harfoots should have been half the size, that there should have been half the number of them (in which case you mean 50% fewer Harfoots) or that they should have had half the screen time that they ended up with?

 

Personally I would have welcomed seeing some more of the perils that the Harfoots are so worried about with some gratuitous redshirt style deaths to clearly establish the threat.

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Do you mean that the Harfoots should have been half the size, that there should have been half the number of them (in which case you mean 50% fewer Harfoots) or that they should have had half the screen time that they ended up with?

 

Yes

[templar7]

On 10/21/2022 at 6:54 AM, DaddyFinn said:

Surprising, eh? 😉 I can't find many positives in the first season. It just felt so pointless.

 

On 10/21/2022 at 9:07 AM, SinisterDeath said:

 

In terms of faithfulness to the source; Rings of Power didn't just eliminate a few towns, and add a new stop at a location they would have rather avoided like WoT did. They literally rewrote a millennia of history, changed the importance of Mithril, and a whole slew of other stuff that if it had happened to WoT, fans heads would be exploding in anger.

 

Isn't it interesting though that if you can separate yourself from the source, how those changes largely become meaningless?

What a great perspective. I agree from a non readers point of view. 

As a fully read Tolkien and RJ fan, as I'm sure you are as well, RoP changed way too much. I think it's a problem of only having the appendices to work with though.  

Like what is Galadriel doing taking orders from Gil Gallad... Gandalf and the Istari came to middle earth by ship, and long after the rings were forged as Cirdan gave one to Him and the other to Galadriel. And the Numenorians should have had numerous settlements in middle earth by this time. 

Buy comparison WoT stayed much tighter to the source. 

[templar7]

On 10/21/2022 at 9:45 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I know you are saying you are much closer to the source material for WoT, but just as two standalone shows the only area that RoP is better than WoT is the production quality in my opinion. WoT probably a 6/10 for me (and significantly downgraded because of the finale, had they executed the finale better I'd have been delighted with S1) whereas RoP... probably 3/10? I'm just left having no interest in whatever they have planned going forward.

 

I'm a huge fan of both worlds and I was very relaxed about the story they would tell in RoP and how they would have to go about it (considering all the rights issues), but what we got was so scattered and outright bad at times I find very few redeeming qualities. At least with WoT I had some serious high points (personally) and there was really nothing in RoP S1 that had me thinking "well at least we got that" and looking forward to S2. The only thing that came close really was seeing Numenor realised on screen, but even that, after the initial excitement, felt like a pretty small city rather than the civilisation it is described as. Though the whole show suffers from feeling very small/empty imo. 

 

 

I really dont think they should have bothered without the rights to the Silmarillion in the first place. All the meat of the story is there. 

With that budget I'd rather see the story of Feanor and the Silmarills

[Harldin]

36 minutes ago, templar7 said:

 

What a great perspective. I agree from a non readers point of view. 

As a fully read Tolkien and RJ fan, as I'm sure you are as well, RoP changed way too much. I think it's a problem of only having the appendices to work with though.  

Like what is Galadriel doing taking orders from Gil Gallad... Gandalf and the Istari came to middle earth by ship, and long after the rings were forged as Cirdan gave one to Him and the other to Galadriel. And the Numenorians should have had numerous settlements in middle earth by this time. 

Buy comparison WoT stayed much tighter to the source. 

Not yet convinced that the Istari is Gandolf or that we will ever know who it is, we may be left guessing with the Stranger and he may just leave Middle Earth at the end of the series, without giving a known name.