Alanna and her Warders

[nsmallw]

They made the who's the Dragon mystery specifically because the show was made more for non readers than readers. Having said that, I don't think they would have actually gone through with it and made the Dragon a woman in the show. 

[CaddySedai]

Sometimes the appearance of a conflict suffices as much as conflict itself. 

 

I do not doubt for a moment that Rand is, was, and always will be Dragon. 

 

Still the introduction of the “what if” is, as has been stated, for the non readers a little pump fake. 

 

I think the crux of the issue lies in the whole - what if it is a woman? RJ built a specifically binary power and if it was a woman in the show it would break further what people already consider broken. 

 

I think this was done for the appearance of diversity rather than actually being a serious idea. It was never going to be Mat, it was never gonna be Per, it was never gonna be Nyn or Eg. It was always going to be Rand. Silly, sure. But it further just reinforces this worlds Aes Sedai. Far from the seeming all knowing Tower of the books whose flaws are carefully hidden behind white marble this one wears them on its shoulder. Unsheathed swords rather than hidden blades. 

 

So in the show lore it makes sense that they can nail down GPS coordinates but like early apple maps will sometimes just put you right into a river. 

 

I can understand the gripe tho. Because I can’t view it in the eyes of someone not in the know. I cannot see if the feints worked because to me it was always a nonstarter. It was the one thing that could have actually turned me against it all lol. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by CaddySedai

[holger]

I generally agree with what has been said, but here is a slightly different angle.

 

First of all, the same mystery about who the DR is, also exists in the books, except it only extends to the in-story characters (who find out the truth during TGH), not to the readers. The only way the readers find out earlier is via RJ's PoV selection, i.e. via "metadata". The in-story hints (Rand's channeling etc.) are obscure enough to not betray the DR's identity for most first-time readers. For a TV show this is trickier to handle. They could not completely get rid of the in-story uncertainty who the dragon is, because that would eliminate the motivation for the others to join Rand, and thus cause plot problems, so some level of mystery had to be maintained in the show.

 

The question was then how much of the mystery to maintain, i.e. whether to use scene selection or camera angles to show viewers more than what characters see (simulating what the books do), but on TV that would likely have looked cheesy, and would have appeared more like a badly executed (trivially solvable) mystery than no mystery at all -- so they decided to double down on the mystery and make it interesting for non-book readers, which, I think, was a good choice.
 

As for including Egwene: the "girl demographic" angle was probably one reason for making her a potential dragon, but not the only one. They had another problem, because they also had to come up with a new reason for Egwene to join the group. The book reason (15-yo girl wanting to see the world), would not work in the show, where Egwene had to be aged up to 20 to avoid the YA genre. It would have made it look like Egwene decided to just run after her just-dumped boyfriend, after Nynaeve was presumed dead, and would have undercut her later character arc.

 

The solution was to just include Egwene in the "core group": since they had already decided to increase the size of the Trolloc attack for visual reasons, they no longer had "pointers" to potential dragons via Trolloc-attacked buildings, like in the books, and instead needed a different way for Moiraine to know who the potential dragons were. They decided to use "ta'veren" for that. I think this will turn out to be an excellent choice, because ta'veren can be objectively detected: I expect that early in season 2 we will get a flashback scene to before the season 1 events when an Aes Sedai with the "ta'veren seeing" talent (new cast member Else Treehill ?) "sees" Egwene, Mat, Rand and Perrin in the Two Rivers. That would fix the awkward "four ta'veren" comment from the Liandrin chase scene, and would clean up the logic behind Moiraine pointing out who the potential dragons were (and Lan's "is it one of them?" bathtub question). Adding all of that ta'veren background info at the beginning of S1 E1 would have required way too much exposition, in an already exposition-heavy episode, so I can see why they would want to delay that to S2.

With a single core group identified by being ta'veren, what where the options for adding Egwene to the group? They could either have made her only a ta'veren, but not a potential dragon, but then that would have to be explained, in even more exposition, along with a reason why the trollocs were still pursuing her. Or they could just pretend that "ta'veren" = "potential dragon" for the moment, to simplify the exposition, and perhaps clarify later, which seems more reasonable. Of course with that decision they then also had to include the "girls can be dragons" idea in the main narrative, for consistency.

 

I don't see any harm in temporarily including Egwene as a potential dragon. Book readers who are lore purists can easily shrug off Moiraine's claim that girls can be dragons as "unreliable narrator". Non-book readers initially won't know enough to even ask related questions, and later they won't care any more, once they have had their fun with the "mystery".

[SilentRoamer]

I feel like making Egwene Ta'verev devalues some of her later achievements. 

Egwene won the Tower through political machinations, through subterfuge and misdirection, She won the Tower as an act of will, it was a significant achievement.

Making her Ta'veren just devalues that for me, much like Mat dicing, how could she possibly lose?

I always though those EF characters who weren't Ta'veren achieved what they did through grit, determination, force of will and intelligence.  

[holger]

3 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

I feel like making Egwene Ta'verev devalues some of her later achievements. 

Egwene won the Tower through political machinations, through subterfuge and misdirection, She won the Tower as an act of will, it was a significant achievement.

Making her Ta'veren just devalues that for me, much like Mat dicing, how could she possibly lose?

I always though those EF characters who weren't Ta'veren achieved what they did through grit, determination, force of will and intelligence.  

 

I sympathize with that argument, but I do not really share it. All characters have achievements in their story arcs that are the result of their personal decisions, and they also have achievements that are due to things happening to them, outside of their control, but which end up being necessary for the overall plot. That is no less true for Egwene than for others.

Egwene is my favorite character in the books, and I love the way she maneuvers herself into a position of strength in Salidar, and her combination of duty and incredible self sacrifice at such a young age, later in the Tower. However none of that would have been possible if it had not been for many events that she had no control over, and did not intend, like being captured multiple times against her will, sitters in Salidar and the Black Ajah gravely misjudging her "pliability" etc.

I see the ta'veren mechanism not so much as plot armor, which could potentially negate personally achievements, but more as focusing mechanism for the pattern to identify important threads and keep them on track. This is not primarily done by taking decisions away from the ta'veren themselves, but by influencing other people around them, so the ta'veren themselves end up in positions where they can make meaningful choices. All characters do that at some point, not just Egwene, but also e.g. Rand (cleansing saidin, Veins of Gold) and Mat (battle for Cairhien, military strategy for tarmon gai'don).

[WhiteVeils]

3 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

I feel like making Egwene Ta'verev devalues some of her later achievements. 

Egwene won the Tower through political machinations, through subterfuge and misdirection, She won the Tower as an act of will, it was a significant achievement.

Making her Ta'veren just devalues that for me, much like Mat dicing, how could she possibly lose?

I always though those EF characters who weren't Ta'veren achieved what they did through grit, determination, force of will and intelligence.  

 

No one ever seems to argue that Rand, Mat, and Perrin don't have grit, determination, force of will, and intelligence to do the things they do, that it was all just 'the pattern' making things easy for them. This argument is only ever used to argue that Egwene shouldn't get the label ta'veren despite the hugely unlikely things that happen to her that have nothing to do with her own grit, determination, force of will, or intelligence. It wasn't her ability that got her made Amyrlin seat, and she didn't 'will' being a dreamer into being.  She's had just as many unlikely occurrences selecting her as any other ta'veran, so why not get the label.

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

No one ever seems to argue that Rand, Mat, and Perrin don't have grit, determination, force of will, and intelligence to do the things they do, that it was all just 'the pattern' making things easy for them. This argument is only ever used to argue that Egwene shouldn't get the label ta'veren despite the hugely unlikely things that happen to her that have nothing to do with her own grit, determination, force of will, or intelligence. It wasn't her ability that got her made Amyrlin seat, and she didn't 'will' being a dreamer into being.  She's had just as many unlikely occurrences selecting her as any other ta'veran, so why not get the label.

I very much think that some of Rand, Mat, Perrin's achievements are 'diminished' because of their ta'veren status.  They are 'fated' to accomplish some things and the pattern won't 'allow' them to fail - regardless of actual ability, decisions, or likelihood.  Accomplishments might be impressive, but would be more so had the pattern not aided their cause.

 

Sports analogy: Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps have both had unprecedented success in their respective sports.  They both train hard, eat right, listen to coaches, and make wise decisions - and their results are unmatched.  But they both also won the genetic lottery.  They are beasts!!  Some would say they were born to dominate their respective sports (given that they put in the work, didn't get injured, etc.)  Wouldn't it be even more impressive had someone matched Bolt or Phelps doing all the same things while only being 5 foot nothing and weighing 90 pounds?  I would be way more impressed if the 90-pounder beat one of them.

 

Yes, Egwene had help (just as the boys did) from incompetent enemies and competent allies.  But not being ta'veren withheld the additional aid of the pattern (fate).  So she did more with less.  In my eyes that makes her accomplishments more impressive than those of the boys.  Just as Lan, Moiraine, Talmanes, Elayne, Galad and many others - they all had significant success without the aid of being ta'veren.  It is not about Egwene being ta'veren or not - it is about any character being ta'veren or not.  Independent of other outside forces, being a 'magical' ta'veren provides an edge.  Accomplishing the same task without that edge is more impressive.

[expat]

Quote

I very much think that some of Rand, Mat, Perrin's achievements are 'diminished' because of their ta'veren status.  

I always took ta'veren as a way to make the "deus ex machina" events that fantasy books are rife with palatable.  Yea, there was a plot reason for these illogical events.  If the concept of ta'veren had never been invented, these events would have still happened because they were needed to move the plot, but with much eye rolling because of their lack of logical development.  I never took the pattern controlling events seriously as a concept while reading the books.  Ta'veren was a way to seamlessly move the plot, not some deep philosophical treatise. 

 

Things like Egwene becoming the rebel Amyrlin was a very annoying "dues ex machina" event because it was so out of character for the rebel leaders.  I think I stopped reading for about a month before I was able to get over my annoyance.  There were a couple of other times when I had to stop reading due to idiotic "dues ex machina" events, but never for as long as Egwene's accession.  I could have easily accepted this bad plot development if Egwene had been ta'veren, because logic and character consistency were unimportant (e.g., "dues ex machina" events happen so just accept them). 

 

Note that I stopped reading George Martin after the Red Wedding because of total disgust at the randomness of the scene, so authors can sometimes go too far with their plot machinations.

 

Note 2:  I am in the middle of a re-read of the books and it is striking that in the Forsaken POV's they never mention the concept of ta'veren, but they constantly talk about how lucky Rand is and how his luck will desert him at some point.  They don't attribute his luck to pattern armor.  So is the concept of ta'veren a 3rd age invention. unknown in the AOL or is there another reason that they don't seem to attribute ta'vereness to Rand and the others?

[SilentRoamer]

22 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

No one ever seems to argue that Rand, Mat, and Perrin don't have grit, determination, force of will, and intelligence to do the things they do, that it was all just 'the pattern' making things easy for them. This argument is only ever used to argue that Egwene shouldn't get the label ta'veren despite the hugely unlikely things that happen to her that have nothing to do with her own grit, determination, force of will, or intelligence. It wasn't her ability that got her made Amyrlin seat, and she didn't 'will' being a dreamer into being.  She's had just as many unlikely occurrences selecting her as any other ta'veran, so why not get the label.

 

Except she is not ta'veren, at least not Canonically in the books. A number of characters with the talent for seeing Ta'veren would have seen she was Ta'veren. 

I understand viewers may want her to be Ta'veren, and they may get their wish, but it will only apply to the show version of Egwene. While her force of Will did not make her a Dreamer, that same force of will aided her significantly in Tel'aran'rhiod and to overcome the things that she did. 

Also - you really think people don't argue that (especially) Rand is fated for events? He is prophesized, the Pattern (therefore reality) literally re-writes itself around him to give him the desired effect. The same with Mat. It feels less obvious with Perrin. Rand especially though, it seems a foregone conclusion, just another turning of the wheel. 

Literally he Wills the pipe to be lit. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:32 AM, expat said:

Note 2:  I am in the middle of a re-read of the books and it is striking that in the Forsaken POV's they never mention the concept of ta'veren, but they constantly talk about how lucky Rand is and how his luck will desert him at some point.  They don't attribute his luck to pattern armor.  So is the concept of ta'veren a 3rd age invention. unknown in the AOL or is there another reason that they don't seem to attribute ta'vereness to Rand and the others?

Certainly Tuon (and by extension presumably the rest of the Seanchan) mocks the notion of ta'veren (ironic since they consider themselves heirs of Hawkwing who was considered the strongest ta'veren for 1000 years on either side of his life).   This suggests that the notion is not endemic and was a post age of legends piece of Aes'sedai lore.

[Skipp]

On 9/1/2022 at 9:32 PM, expat said:

Note 2:  I am in the middle of a re-read of the books and it is striking that in the Forsaken POV's they never mention the concept of ta'veren, but they constantly talk about how lucky Rand is and how his luck will desert him at some point.  They don't attribute his luck to pattern armor.  So is the concept of ta'veren a 3rd age invention. unknown in the AOL or is there another reason that they don't seem to attribute ta'vereness to Rand and the others?

 

I don't believe that they ever use the name Ta'varen but they do know the 3 boys are connected in some way.  I believe they use the phrase "Cut 1 leg off of the tripod" or some such a couple of times.

[expat]

Quote

Certainly Tuon (and by extension presumably the rest of the Seanchan) mocks the notion of ta'veren (ironic since they consider themselves heirs of Hawkwing who was considered the strongest ta'veren for 1000 years on either side of his life).   This suggests that the notion is not endemic and was a post age of legends piece of Aes'sedai lore.

These various claims of luck/fate/omens crystalize the possibility that the ta'veren concept is really only an example of an unreliable narrator.  If true, then all the vitriol spent on three/four/(maybe) five ta'veren from EF is meaningless.   Maybe the Seanchan were right, and it was just sad that nobody could correctly interpret the omens around Rand allowing him an easier path to victory.

 

The obvious comeback against this argument is the book talent some people have of seeing ta'veren.  The counter argument is that this talent is actually seeing something else, and the misinterpretation spawned the idea of ta'veren.      

[DojoToad]

On 8/31/2022 at 8:46 PM, holger said:

As for including Egwene: the "girl demographic" angle was probably one reason for making her a potential dragon, but not the only one. They had another problem, because they also had to come up with a new reason for Egwene to join the group. The book reason (15-yo girl wanting to see the world), would not work in the show, where Egwene had to be aged up to 20 to avoid the YA genre. It would have made it look like Egwene decided to just run after her just-dumped boyfriend, after Nynaeve was presumed dead, and would have undercut her later character arc.

 

 

I don't think they avoided the YA feel just because they aged the characters up.  The EF5 are still young in comparison to the shows other characters and are still incredibly one-dimensional in a very YA way:

• Perrin - handsome brooder
• Egwene - breaking independent
• Mat - mysterious bad boy
• Nynaeve - it's me time
• Rand - petulant whiner

Now this give the characters plenty of room to grow, but left the YA feel very intact from my perspective.

Edited September 4, 2022 by DojoToad

[MasterAblar]

I never got the debate about Egwene not being taveren. Being some of importance, making a difference, holding positions of power, or just being special isn't what makes a taveren. Taverens are specific tools of the pattern, who are only taveren while pattern needs them to be. They're a corrective mechanism allowing the patter to nudge (or shove) events in the direction it requires. If it was just about being powerful or influential, taveren would be a common occurence but they're not they're very rare.

 

All kinds of character came down special abilities not just Egwene: Nynveave, Elayne, Aviendha, Logain, Flinn, hell even freaking Fager Neald. And outside of channellers Mat started sprouting old tongue and Perrin was one of the first wolf brother's in seemingly forever (we only know of two others). It's the end of an age, tha pattern is handing out all kinds of gimmicks.

 

Her nomination as Amyrlin is only bizarre when looked at from Egwene's perspective. Once you see it from the Aes Sedai's perspecitve it makes plenty of sense (unlike say the nonsensical dealmaking of the Sea folk with Rand and Mat). The White Tower wanted a puppet ruler and a scapegoat for when the whole schism got resolved. Egwene was the perfect candidate for that, especially considering her link to Rand. Puppet rulers were a pretty common thing, there's nothing abnormal about it.

 

Egwene wasn't a taveren because the pattern didn't need her to be one, that's all there is to it. I find that rather interesting considering her role in the White Tower and the White Tower's role in the Last battle. I tend to think Egwene and several others were necessary to make sure the victory in the Last Battle was not a pyrrhic one. Without her, how many more would have died? Would Demandred have been victorious. Quite possibly? But perhaps that's not the pattern's concern. 

 

Also with Saidin being tainted, it made sense for there to be a metaphorical balancing by the pattern selecting 3 boys as taveren. The scales were tilting too hard one way. Of course as others have said the show is being aimed at a female public to a certain extent, so they may have been wary of that, and then you add in the fact that she and Nyneave were included in the Dragon mystery (which is a whole other issue) and they probably will simly dumb down being Taveren to simply being an important person around who weird shit happens. That still requires weird shit to happen around Egwene and in my opinion it simply doesn't in the books.

 

I'll still miss the whole tripod importance of Rand, Mat, Perrin (although hopefully it still appears to a certain extent), but as long as I can obliterate that stupid "rumours of taveren in the Two Rivers" line, I'll get over it.

[expat]

Quote

Her nomination as Amyrlin is only bizarre when looked at from Egwene's perspective. Once you see it from the Aes Sedai's perspecitve it makes plenty of sense (unlike say the nonsensical dealmaking of the Sea folk with Rand and Mat).

You have it absolutely backwards.  Egwene's nomination as Amyrlin is bizarre from the Aes Sedai's perspective.  The whole series hammers the Aes Sedai's psyche that Novices and Accepted are not Aes Sedai.  They are students needing strong guidance to achieve Aes Sedai status. They haven't shown they are worthy yet by passing the Aes Sedai tests.

Another part of their mindset is that the three oaths are integral to making them what they are.  Accepted haven't taken the oaths.

The rebel leaders would never entertain the notion that an Accepted should be placed over them.  Their world view is cast in concrete after decades or hundreds of years as Aes Sedai.  It's comparable to a 90-year-old voting for a Democrat or Republican for the first time after voting a straight party ticket for 70 years.

[MasterAblar]

9 minutes ago, expat said:

You have it absolutely backwards.  Egwene's nomination as Amyrlin is bizarre from the Aes Sedai's perspective.  The whole series hammers the Aes Sedai's psyche that Novices and Accepted are not Aes Sedai.  They are students needing strong guidance to achieve Aes Sedai status. They haven't shown they are worthy yet by passing the Aes Sedai tests.

Another part of their mindset is that the three oaths are integral to making them what they are.  Accepted haven't taken the oaths.

The rebel leaders would never entertain the notion that an Accepted should be placed over them.  Their world view is cast in concrete after decades or hundreds of years as Aes Sedai.  It's comparable to a 90-year-old voting for a Democrat or Republican for the first time after voting a straight party ticket for 70 years.

 

Yes that is all true which is exactly why she wasn't intended to be a true Amyrlin. Only a puppet, only for show. They don't care that she's hasn't shown she's worthy or anything. They don't want someone worthy.

 

They (the sitters and particularly Lelaine and Romanda) were very pointedly not treating her like an Amyrlin, ignoring her authority entirely because she wasn't meant to have any. She was nothing more than the person meant to take the fall when everything got cleaned up. In fact Lelaine straight up tells her to her face that she's just a figure head, nothing more, she wields no actual power.

[expat]

Agree to disagree. I'm glad that you enjoyed Egwene's accession, but as I said before, this scene turned me off enough for me to stop reading the book for a month because it felt completely wrong.  If Egewene was a ta'veven, this scene was fine since dues ex machina events were required by the definition of ta'veren.

 

There were lots of low status Aes Sedai at the rebel camp that could have worked well as a figurehead.  They didn't need to elevate an Accepted. 

 

Another example - Cardinals picking a new pope want to install a figurehead, but no Cardinal fits the bill.  Do they reach for a seminary student or a low-ranking priest or Bishop?  We both know the answer (and it's not seminary student).

 

 

[MasterAblar]

I guess that depends on what Rand would qualify as in your comparison. Cause part of the reason for choosing Egwene was her ties to Rand. So a Jesus figure who could set off Armagedon and blow up the whole world?

 

Also the black ajah was involved in her election as well, if I remember correctly. They were creating division and strife in the tower at every possible turn and Egwene becoming Amyrlin furthered that goal.

 

Still regardless of whether it made sense or not, enjoying that twist is a seperate thing. I didn't care either way but found it more interesting once the reasoning was revealed.

[Mailman]

There was also Siuan and Leanne working to sabotage any frontrunners that might have emerged that could displace Egwene.

 

The pool was also heavily reduced by wanting someone very strong in the power and who was out of the tower at the time of the split.

[CaddySedai]

Egwene's ascension being the reason to stop reading the books for any time is a weird hill to die on.

 

I could name a hundred more puzzlers lol. I just accepted it as relationship proximity to ta'veren (RPM). Honestly the whole schism plotline was a slog. And this is coming from someone who adores the three popes era of the Catholic church lol.  

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

18 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

I tend to think Egwene and several others were necessary to make sure the victory in the Last Battle was not a pyrrhic one. Without her, how many more would have died? Would Demandred have been victorious. Quite possibly?

Would the pattern have been totally sundered by Profligate use of Balefire?

[MasterAblar]

2 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Would the pattern have been totally sundered by Profligate use of Balefire?

Who knows, events could have turned out differently in a number of ways.

 

I tend to think that was an overreaction anyway. If the pattern didn’t get torn apart in the Age of Legends between what was literal armies of channellers, I have a hard time believing Taim would manage it. 

[expat]

Quote

Egwene's ascension being the reason to stop reading the books for any time is a weird hill to die on.

Sometimes you lose the ability to suspend belief needed to read fantasy.  This was one of those scenes.  It just struck me as so wrong to the characters that the seams of plot progression became too obvious.

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by expat

[MasterAblar]

44 minutes ago, expat said:

Sometimes you lose the ability to suspend belief needed to read fantasy.  This was one of those scenes.  It just struck me as so wrong to the characters that the seams of plot progression became too obvious.

 

I definitely get that. When I first read it my my reaction was definitely in part “Of course Egwene is made Amyrlin, can’t have one of the main characters not having great importance”. Up until then Egwene was kinda trudging along without being very impactful. I suppose the motivation behind was simply convincing enough for me.

[expat]

Thinking on it a little more, my feelings were probably similar to the posters who disliked the series because of changes/omissions (e.g. Alanna's warders to get back to the thread topic) made by the production team.  Purely subjective, but quite real to the person who has them. Luckily, none of the changes/omissions in the series so far has had such a drastic effect on me.

 

Everyone's camel has a different breaking point.