Alanna and her Warders

[Mailman]

If the Dragon is a woman or cannot channel it takes away one of the greatest threats because they wont go insane. 

 

It was a needless storyline in the show and its payoff was woefully low for its impact on the season.

[KakitaOCU]

I'm perfectly happy with Rafe's answer.  It's not that the Dragon can be someone other than Rand.  It's that it's an old Prophecy, as others already said.

People argue over every single line of text in the Prophecies of the Dragon, except that specific one?   We argue what slaying people with a leaf means, we argue over what "Breaking the world again" means.  But not one person ever goes "What if it's not an obvious man reborn?"   Specially combined with a world that is largely female dominated due to only women having magic and influencing things....

I never took it as "OOh, maybe it's not Rand."  I took it as people are dumb and history gets foggy and that leads to mistakes.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

I'm perfectly happy with Rafe's answer.  It's not that the Dragon can be someone other than Rand.  It's that it's an old Prophecy, as others already said.

People argue over every single line of text in the Prophecies of the Dragon, except that specific one?   We argue what slaying people with a leaf means, we argue over what "Breaking the world again" means.  But not one person ever goes "What if it's not an obvious man reborn?"   Specially combined with a world that is largely female dominated due to only women having magic and influencing things....

I never took it as "OOh, maybe it's not Rand."  I took it as people are dumb and history gets foggy and that leads to mistakes.

What if the dragon is a woman that identifies as a man or vice versa?

[Nik]

14 hours ago, DojoToad said:

What if the dragon is a woman that identifies as a man or vice versa?

There is no such thing as "a woman that identifies as a man." People are the gender they say they are. If someone identifies as a man, then he's a man, not "a woman that identifies as a man."

 

That being said, I don't really understand your question. The Dragon is Rand. Hypotheticals aren't relevant to the story.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Nik

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Nik said:

There is no such thing as "a woman that identifies as a man." People are the gender they say they are. If someone identifies as a man, then he's a man, not "a woman that identifies as a man."

 

That being said, I don't really understand your question. The Dragon is Rand. Hypotheticals aren't relevant to the story.

Since you don’t understand, let’s take the Dragon out of it. What if a channeler drew on Saidar for several years then decides to draw on Saidin instead?  Would that channeler then be vulnerable to the taint?

 

or what if a channeler had used Saidin for a time, began to feel the madness seep in and then changed to Saidar- would that effectively hold off further effects or perhaps reverse them?

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Since you don’t understand, let’s take the Dragon out of it. What if a channeler drew on Saidar for several years then decides to draw on Saidin instead?  Would that channeler then be vulnerable to the taint?

 

or what if a channeler had used Saidin for a time, began to feel the madness seep in and then changed to Saidar- would that effectively hold off further effects or perhaps reverse them?

 

Aside from this being a bait topic particularly with the way you worded it.  But ultimately we just don't know.

 

Jordan designed a very binary magic system and considering the time that he wrote it he never addressed the idea of how being Trans fitted into it.  Perhaps they will keep it tied to the soul similar to Balthamel.

 

Hey, maybe the show will actually address this! If they do I hope it is handled better than it was in Balthamel's case.

 

 

[Sabio]

Men draw on the male half and women the female half.  It would be totally confusing and a mess if someone could pick and choose, since who in the right mind would pick the half that would guarantee they would go insane and die a horrible death?   I would suspect things would be if the dragon was a female in this turning, then it would probably be the female half tainted when a man is the dragon it's the male half.  Most of the Rafe answer about if it can be a female or male was to try and keep some suspense as to who the Dragon might be and keep some people happy that it wasn't always a man.  I took the old prophecy stuff and it could be mistaken about some stuff, as a this will make it so I don't have to explain every little detail.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Sabio

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

 

Aside from this being a bait topic particularly with the way you worded it.  But ultimately we just don't know.

 

Jordan designed a very binary magic system and considering the time that he wrote it he never addressed the idea of how being Trans fitted into it.  Perhaps they will keep it tied to the soul similar to Balthamel.

 

Hey, maybe the show will actually address this! If they do I hope it is handled better than it was in Balthamel's case.

 

 

It is not bait according to @Nik  They are what they say they are. No trans. People are what they say they are. So how does that affect what side of the power they draw from?

[Nik]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

It is not bait according to @Nik  They are what they say they are. No trans. People are what they say they are. So how does that affect what side of the power they draw from?

 

I didn't say trans people don't exist. 

I was correcting your phrasing because it was inaccurate. Trans men are men. Trans women are women.

 

Trans men are not "women who identify as men." They're not women who "became" or "chose to be" men. They were always men. People don't choose their gender. They ARE their gender.

 

In the books, it's clearly impossible to choose which side of the Source you draw on. It's either one or the other, because as @Skipp said, the worldbuilding is extremely gender binary and doesn't allow for any nuance there. But since, for some reason (and I seriously don't understand how it's relevant), you insist on posing hypothetical questions about trans channelers:

 

In my opinion, if they existed in the world Robert Jordan created, they would only ever be able to channel one side of the One Power. No choosing, no changing. Which side it would be would depend what it's tied to. If it's tied to their gender, then trans men would channel saidin and trans women would channel saidar. If it's tied to genetics, then for the most part, trans men would channel saidar and trans women would channel saidin.*

 

Again, I don't understand why you're asking this. It's not relevant to this thread (which is about Alanna and her warders). It's not relevant to the last few posts about the Dragon prophecies (which were already off topic anyway). And it's barely relevant to the Wheel of Time as a whole because of how limited the series' definitions of gender are. I guess we could start a discussion of transness in the wheel of time in the book forums if you're really interested in digging into it, but I honestly don't think there's a lot to explore there. Jordan gave us very little to work with.

 

*This is a generalization because genetic sex and physiological sex don't always match up. Things can go wonky during fetal development. Also, intersex people exist but I don't think there's room for them in the world of WoT as Robert Jordan wrote it.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Nik

[Mailman]

In the books channeling is tied to the soul. As can be seen from when the Dark One brought the forsaken back in different bodies and they remained channeling the souls original power.

 

I cant remember if souls changed genders between births there is not a example I can bring to mind.

[WhiteVeils]

Worth peeling off the topic.  

Trigger Warning: Suicide. 

 

There's a good reason it's unlikely that few, if anyone, knows what happens in the case of a trans channeler.  

 

First of all, trans people are a very small portion of the population. Channelers are also a very small portion of the population. There may even be channeling-related reasons why channelers are less likely to be trans or intersex than other people due to the gender-exclusivity of the One Power itself.

 

But even if there were trans or intersex channelers, they'd be rare and hard to find.

 

If person (no matter their sex either genetic, physiological, or psychological only) who presents as a man was able to channel saidir due to having a female soul, they would do everything they could to hide their channeling from the White Tower for fear of being taken by the Red Ajah as a male channeler of Saidin.  They may not even be aware that they are channeling saidir and assume they are able to channel saidin, which for many male channelers leads to suicide as a matter of prevention. Even if they don't commit suicide, they would hide their channeling at the very least.

 

If person (no matter their sex either genetic, physiological, or psychological only) who presents as a woman was able to channel saidin due to having a male soul, if they had a significant ability, it is likely that they would assume they were channeling saidir and present themselves to the White Tower.  The White Tower would not be able to detect their ability unless they had enough strength to demonstrate it.  If they demonstrated it and it was not detected as saidir, then the Tower would know that it was a saidin channeler, despite their presentation, and would immediately gentle them.  Such people would likely be removed from Tower Records and covered up to 'prevent confusion in the masses about male channelers'...such people becoming public knowledge is a huge threat to Aes Sedai power...13th repository stuff. It'd be covered up.  If such a channeler was not immediately gentled on presenting to the Tower, and grew in power, they would also develop the corruption on Saidin.  If they figured out what was going on and that it was saidin, they'd then either commit suicide or try to hide it from the Tower for fear of being gentled. If they went mad, to the common people around them, they would assume that it was a female channeler who had gone mad with saidir.  (Though rare, Aes Sedai aren't immune to going mad for non-taint reasons).  They would either kill her, or they would summon the Tower, who would also gentle or kill her.  The White Tower would rather claim that the woman had gone mad for other reasons to cover up the existence of presenting-women channeling saidir, or say that it was a man who had disguised himself as a woman to escape the Aes Sedai....either of which would protect the White Tower.

 

In either case, the general public would not know about the existence of such a channeler. The Tower would know, but the records would be hidden and kept secret and kept from common knowledge, even among the sisters.

[Sabio]

 

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

In the books channeling is tied to the soul. As can be seen from when the Dark One brought the forsaken back in different bodies and they remained channeling the souls original power.

 

I cant remember if souls changed genders between births there is not a example I can bring to mind.

At least in RJ's world a soul always retains its gender, which is why the Dragon is always a male.

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Nik said:

 

I didn't say trans people don't exist. 

I was correcting your phrasing because it was inaccurate. Trans men are men. Trans women are women.

 

Trans men are not "women who identify as men." They're not women who "became" or "chose to be" men. They were always men. People don't choose their gender. They ARE their gender.

 

In the books, it's clearly impossible to choose which side of the Source you draw on. It's either one or the other, because as @Skipp said, the worldbuilding is extremely gender binary and doesn't allow for any nuance there. But since, for some reason (and I seriously don't understand how it's relevant), you insist on posing hypothetical questions about trans channelers:

 

In my opinion, if they existed in the world Robert Jordan created, they would only ever be able to channel one side of the One Power. No choosing, no changing. Which side it would be would depend what it's tied to. If it's tied to their gender, then trans men would channel saidin and trans women would channel saidar. If it's tied to genetics, then for the most part, trans men would channel saidar and trans women would channel saidin.*

 

Again, I don't understand why you're asking this. It's not relevant to this thread (which is about Alanna and her warders). It's not relevant to the last few posts about the Dragon prophecies (which were already off topic anyway). And it's barely relevant to the Wheel of Time as a whole because of how limited the series' definitions of gender are. I guess we could start a discussion of transness in the wheel of time in the book forums if you're really interested in digging into it, but I honestly don't think there's a lot to explore there. Jordan gave us very little to work with.

 

*This is a generalization because genetic sex and physiological sex don't always match up. Things can go wonky during fetal development. Also, intersex people exist but I don't think there's room for them in the world of WoT as Robert Jordan wrote it.

This thread is for the show which is way different from the books. So it doesn’t matter what Jordan set up but rather what Judkins did. And as we’re all still trying to figure out where the next season will go, I think trans-channelers are legitimate. How does Rafe treat a male channeler assigned female at birth?  What happens to a female channeler that chooses to be male later in life?

[Sabio]

Honestly though with the limited time the series has for stuff, is this really needed?  There is already too much for eight episodes without wanting the series to add or explain all of our RL issues.  The WOT isn't suppose to be fair or equal.  It's a world with slavery, where gender plays a part on what jobs you can hold in some nations, and torture is commonly used.  Where White Cloaks roam about looking for any excuse to accuse someone of being a darkfriend.  I tend to see it as since the series is based in medieval times, I judge things on what I think many attitudes would probably be at the time.  I would guess their attitudes about such a thing would be the person is crazy.  Now in the Age of Legends and LTT's time I would suspect it would probably be a lot more enlightened about such an issue. 

[Nik]

12 hours ago, DojoToad said:

This thread is for the show which is way different from the books. So it doesn’t matter what Jordan set up but rather what Judkins did. And as we’re all still trying to figure out where the next season will go, I think trans-channelers are legitimate. How does Rafe treat a male channeler assigned female at birth?  What happens to a female channeler that chooses to be male later in life?

I don't think the TV show will touch on trans channelers because it's too big of a can of worms. Too many ways to mess up. It's much easier to leave it alone and keep trans representation to non-channelers. Just my opinion though.

 

I'm also noting that you continue to talk about women "choosing" to be men later in life, despite my explaining why that's inaccurate. I'm not going to continue engaging with your questions when they are

a) off-topic for this thread

b) phrased with transphobic language

 

I already said what I think in my previous post with regards to which half of the source a hypothetical trans channeler would have access to. I think @WhiteVeils's breakdown also makes sense if we assume souls are gendered and channeling is tied to the soul only. I don't have anything else to say on the matter.

 

[SilentRoamer]

On 8/21/2022 at 1:52 AM, Nik said:

 

Trans men are men. Trans women are women.

 

 

I shouldn't really have to explain this to someone frequenting a forum dedicated to the written word. If they were the same you would need to add a prefix. You would just say men, and women. 

However a Trans man - is someone born Female, a Trans Woman is someone born Male. 

Language is utilitarian, if there was no reason to differentiate, then it would not exist. 

[DojoToad]

19 hours ago, Nik said:

I don't think the TV show will touch on trans channelers because it's too big of a can of worms. Too many ways to mess up. It's much easier to leave it alone and keep trans representation to non-channelers. Just my opinion though.

 

You are likely correct.  But this is also why I am asking the questions.  It is difficult and I'm trying to understand the issue from a perspective other than my own.

 

19 hours ago, Nik said:

 

I'm also noting that you continue to talk about women "choosing" to be men later in life, despite my explaining why that's inaccurate. I'm not going to continue engaging with your questions when they are

a) off-topic for this thread

b) phrased with transphobic language

 

Yes, I'm obviously not understanding what you're trying to explain.  Let's just assume that my skull is too thick and the subject too complex, plus a lifetime of only being peripherally exposed to trans topics.  As for your lettered points:

a) I was being too generic in my questions/comments.  I think that trans channelers provide the most interesting options especially in regards any possible effects on Warders and which side of the source drawn from.  Thus why I posted here - Alanna and her warders could cover it all.

b) Again, I will plead ignorance here.  Not trying to be mean/incendiary.  The topic is interesting to me but I obviously need to tread more carefully until I gain better understanding.

 

19 hours ago, Nik said:

 

I already said what I think in my previous post with regards to which half of the source a hypothetical trans channeler would have access to. I think @WhiteVeils's breakdown also makes sense if we assume souls are gendered and channeling is tied to the soul only. I don't have anything else to say on the matter.

 

@Nik - thank for your efforts to engage and trying to explain to an idiot old man.  My apologies for offending you.  I'll look for you elsewhere on the boards...

 

 

[Nik]

1 hour ago, SilentRoamer said:

 

I shouldn't really have to explain this to someone frequenting a forum dedicated to the written word. If they were the same you would need to add a prefix. You would just say men, and women. 

However a Trans man - is someone born Female, a Trans Woman is someone born Male. 

Language is utilitarian, if there was no reason to differentiate, then it would not exist. 

 

Bowling shoes are shoes.

 

Sunglasses are glasses.

 

Red apples are apples.

 

Sparkling water is water.

 

See how this works? I, too, can be patronizing about language.

[Nik]

I'll be honest. I'm disappointed. I expected this to be a place to talk about the wheel of time. Not a place to find transphobic rhetoric and baiting popping up out of nowhere on topics where it's not even relevant. Don't y'all have moderators? Or do they just not care?

[VooDooNut]

1 hour ago, Nik said:

I'll be honest. I'm disappointed. I expected this to be a place to talk about the wheel of time. Not a place to find transphobic rhetoric and baiting popping up out of nowhere on topics where it's not even relevant. Don't y'all have moderators? Or do they just not care?

@NikI feel @DojoToadgave a fair response and apology to your post. The tone of your posts comes across as quite hostile in comparison. As someone who aspires to be a better mentor myself, I would hope you could give everyone the benefit of the doubt in wanting to learn and understand instead of responding so sharply. This could be an opportunity for all of us to learn from one another.

My apologies to the thread for adding to the derailment of this conversation.

[DojoToad]

So getting back on track with the OP's question...

 

I think Alanna and her warders are very charismatic.  And with changes from book to show I can see them getting additional time.  In fact, I'd be surprised if they didn't.

[SilentRoamer]

2 hours ago, Nik said:

 

Bowling shoes are shoes.

 

Sunglasses are glasses.

 

Red apples are apples.

 

Sparkling water is water.

 

See how this works? I, too, can be patronizing about language.

 

Yes bit neither shoes or apples can channel....

Surely when discussing Trans in the context of the WoT and channelling it would actually matter - with Male and Female halves of the One Power being divided that way.

My understanding is that RJ stated that souls themselves were gendered. Which I found an interesting concept. 

Anyway - Apologies for my patronizing tone - it was unintended but I can see how it reads and I have no intention in bringing contentious real world debates into a WoT forum, so please accept my unreserved apology.  

[WhiteVeils]

Souls can be gendered. Bodies might not necessarily match souls. And if there were ever a case where bodies and souls did not match AND that person could not channel, the majority of the world's population would never know at all, and it would not be relevant to the functioning of society for reasons I explained in my previous post.  If the show has Halima in it at all, I'm sure they would not be a Forsaken for simplicity's sake (and the previous forsaken has been cut anyway), but a Darkfriend who is simply a person with such a body/soul mismatch. Though they probably will cut the character - they're not essential and pretty problematic anyway.  There may well be one or two other trans characters in the show, especially if they keep Halima, but they would not be channelers.

Edited August 22, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Souls can be gendered. Bodies might not necessarily match souls. And if there were ever a case where bodies and souls did not match AND that person could not channel, the majority of the world's population would never know at all, and it would not be relevant to the functioning of society for reasons I explained in my previous post.  If the show has Halima in it at all, I'm sure they would not be a Forsaken for simplicity's sake (and the previous forsaken has been cut anyway), but a Darkfriend who is simply a person with such a body/soul mismatch. Though they probably will cut the character - they're not essential and pretty problematic anyway.  There may well be one or two other trans characters in the show, especially if they keep Halima, but they would not be channelers.

Oh, but that shout of, "She's channeling saidin!" was so jarring.  Loved it.

 

Jarring on behalf of the characters, as readers we already knew...

Edited August 22, 2022 by DojoToad

[AyutaYamane]

On 8/20/2022 at 6:28 AM, KakitaOCU said:

I'm perfectly happy with Rafe's answer.  It's not that the Dragon can be someone other than Rand.  It's that it's an old Prophecy, as others already said.

People argue over every single line of text in the Prophecies of the Dragon, except that specific one?   We argue what slaying people with a leaf means, we argue over what "Breaking the world again" means.  But not one person ever goes "What if it's not an obvious man reborn?"   Specially combined with a world that is largely female dominated due to only women having magic and influencing things....

I never took it as "OOh, maybe it's not Rand."  I took it as people are dumb and history gets foggy and that leads to mistakes.

 

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