Prophecies, Viewings and Foreshadowing

[DigificWriter]

^ Min's visions and the presentation thereof in the TV show are not an instance where you can use the books as a determining factor for analysis, and as presented in the TV series, her visions are absolutely treated as glimpses of or predictions about real future events.

[Ralph]

  On 12/18/2021 at 10:13 PM, DigificWriter said:

^ Min's visions and the presentation thereof in the TV show are not an instance where you can use the books as a determining factor for analysis, and as presented in the TV series, her visions are absolutely treated as glimpses of or predictions about real future events.

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Sorry. I didn't realise you meant that. 

 

How do you know this? 

 

White flame is not literal, for example. Nor are the sparks and the darkness

[DigificWriter]

  On 12/18/2021 at 10:20 PM, Ralph said:

White flame is not literal, for example. Nor are the sparks and the darkness

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If you thought Min was speaking symbolically when she talked about these things, you misread what was going on.

 

Between how the show depicts her visions when she looks at both Perrin and Rand and what she says to Rand about how she knew who he was, her visions as presented as 100% real glimpses of things that are in the characters' futures relative to the times that she was given said visions about them.

Edited December 18, 2021 by DigificWriter

[Ralph]

  On 12/18/2021 at 10:30 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

If you thought Min was speaking symbolically when she talked about these things, you misread what was going on.

 

Between how the show depicts her visions when she looks at both Perrin and Rand and what she says to Rand about how she knew who he was, her visions as presented as 100% real glimpses of things that are in the characters' futures relative to the times that she was given said visions about them.

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Sorry I am really not understanding

 

 

She saw sparks, and darkness trying to swallow them. She knew that this symbolically represented the group fighting on behalf of the Light and the DO. 

 

Why can't her vision of Rand and a baby be symbolising something in his future, not him holding an actual baby at some point in his life? 

 

Just like many of her visions in the books were symbolising future events, not exact physical representations? 

 

? 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Ralph

[DigificWriter]

  On 12/18/2021 at 10:36 PM, Ralph said:

She saw sparks, and darkness trying to swallow them. She knew that this symbolically represented the group fighting on behalf of the Light and the DO. 

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That's the thing; she wasn't speaking symbolically in the TV show.

 

When she said she saw sparks surrounding the Two Rivers four and darkness trying to swallow those sparks, she literally saw everything that she described happening in real time as,she described it to Moiraine.

[Ralph]

  On 12/18/2021 at 10:43 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

That's the thing; she wasn't speaking symbolically in the TV show.

 

When she said she saw sparks surrounding the Two Rivers four and darkness trying to swallow those sparks, she literally saw everything that she described happening in real time as,she described it to Moiraine.

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Sure. And she literally saw Rand holding a baby

 

But that doesn't mean it will be fulfilled by him holding a baby

[TheMountain]

I predict that Rand will literally be holding a baby in the next epsiode lol

[dwn]

  On 12/18/2021 at 10:43 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

That's the thing; she wasn't speaking symbolically in the TV show.

 

When she said she saw sparks surrounding the Two Rivers four and darkness trying to swallow those sparks, she literally saw everything that she described happening in real time as,she described it to Moiraine.

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The vision of sparks symbolised the EF5 all being connected in the fight against the DO, not that there would be literal, physical sparks flying off the characters.

 

 

[DigificWriter]

  On 12/18/2021 at 10:55 PM, dwn said:

The vision of sparks symbolised the EF5 all being connected in the fight against the DO

 

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That's a misread of what Min's vision of the sparks and the darkness and her description of it as presented in the TV show was intended to tell us as an audience.

Edited December 18, 2021 by DigificWriter

[MasterAblar]

  On 12/18/2021 at 11:03 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

That's a misread of what Min's vision of the sparks and the darkness and her description of it as presented in the TV show was intended to tell us as an audience.

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So you think that she had this vision, the exact same vision she had in the books word for word basically, but whereas in the books it was metaphorical, in the show it will be literal as in actual sparks fighting off shadows?

[DigificWriter]

^ In the TV series,, the Two Rivers four don't symbolically represent sparks fighting against darkness; they are the sparks fighting against the darkness, which is why Min's vision physically showed the four of them with actual sparks and darkness surrounding them.

Edited December 18, 2021 by DigificWriter

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

  On 12/18/2021 at 10:30 PM, DigificWriter said:

Between how the show depicts her visions when she looks at both Perrin and Rand and what she says to Rand about how she knew who he was, her visions as presented as 100% real glimpses of things that are in the characters' futures relative to the times that she was given said visions about them.

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Not getting embroiled in the whole literal / figurative thing about the sparks but the length and specificity of her stated viewing of Tam when a child is way out of kilter with the kind of viewings and predictions she gets in the books even when directly viewing ta'veren. 

E.g. getting new viewings for Perrin immediately after he commits to accompany Moiraine at the start of book 3 - a hawk and a falcon perching on him both female, an aielman in a cage, a tauatha'an with a sword - as if those parts only became certain if he went that way.   Meeting Zarine may well have been fated one way or another since he had "a broken crown" from their first meeting but she got three glimpses and no idea what they meant, not a running narrative covering years.

 

Not definitive but it could mean that her gift is working differently in the show, alternatively it could mean that her first manifestation was particularly vivid and it has now settled down to a more controlled / manageable level (in line with the whole "wilders do weird stuff with the power compared to those who are taught").

[DigificWriter]

According to what she tells Rand, Min was in Tar Valon when she was younger and either saw or ran into Tam in the streets, which triggered her very first vision: his encounter with a pregnant and dying Aielwoman on the slopes of Dragonmount, said Aielwoman giving birth to a baby boy,  and him (Tam) taking said boy to the Two Rivers and raising him to adulthood.

Edited December 19, 2021 by DigificWriter

[Andra]

  On 12/18/2021 at 11:57 PM, DigificWriter said:

^ In the TV series,, the Two Rivers four don't symbolically represent sparks fighting against darkness; they are the sparks fighting against the darkness, which is why Min's vision physically showed the four of them with actual sparks and darkness surrounding them.

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Except that they aren't literal sparks.  They're people.

Even interpreting it that way means it's figurative.

 

In the books, this specific viewing is figurative.  Given the identical language in the show, on what basis is it supposed to be literal?

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

  On 12/19/2021 at 8:12 AM, Andra said:

  On 12/18/2021 at 11:57 PM, DigificWriter said:

^ In the TV series,, the Two Rivers four don't symbolically represent sparks fighting against darkness; they are the sparks fighting against the darkness, which is why Min's vision physically showed the four of them with actual sparks and darkness surrounding them.

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Except that they aren't literal sparks.  They're people.

Even interpreting it that way means it's figurative.

 

In the books, this specific viewing is figurative.  Given the identical language in the show, on what basis is it supposed to be literal?

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I think you are overlooking the extent to which the word "literally" has been twisted by being almost invariably used by a person who means figuratively, to the point where literally now actually means figuratively (but with extra emphasis) to most people.  

 

But then I am equally irritated by people using less when they mean fewer and all when they mean each so I could be oversensitive on the miss-use of words issue.

 

Digression over.

[notpropaganda73]

  On 12/18/2021 at 9:35 PM, Ralph said:

I'm pretty sure the baby is not meant to be a real baby, but something symbolic

 

I thought the "rainbows and carnivals and 3 beautiful women" genuinely was meant to be sarcasm, and that they're taking out the harem. I thought the whole line was a clever dig at people who would want that to be the same - that they're wishing for rainbows and unicorns. 

 

Surprised many of you thought it was a genuine vision

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I really hope that’s true because to be honest, Rand & Min was the only one that ever felt “real” to me in the books

[TheMountain]

  On 12/18/2021 at 9:35 PM, Ralph said:

I'm pretty sure the baby is not meant to be a real baby, but something symbolic

 

I thought the "rainbows and carnivals and 3 beautiful women" genuinely was meant to be sarcasm, and that they're taking out the harem. I thought the whole line was a clever dig at people who would want that to be the same - that they're wishing for rainbows and unicorns. 

 

Surprised many of you thought it was a genuine vision

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Honestly, this is how I've interpreted a lot of lines in the show that directly contradict lore.

[DigificWriter]

  On 12/19/2021 at 8:12 AM, Andra said:

Given the identical language in the show, on what basis is it supposed to be literal?

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Because the show establishes that Min's visions are actual glimpses of future events.

[Sabio]

The carnival could be the Foregate if it makes the show, but my initial reaction was the rest was tossed in the viewing to distract Rand from the 3 beautiful women part.  You noticed he smiles and didn't seem to take it seriously.

[MasterAblar]

  On 12/19/2021 at 2:42 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Because the show establishes that Min's visions are actual glimpses of future events.

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So you think Min seeing a white flame for Egwene is supposed to be a literal white flame rather than: 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

A metaphor for her becoming Amyrlin in the future?

 

[DigificWriter]

Min sees the "white flame" and "a ring of gold" when she looks at Nynaeve and Egwene because those things are part of their futures.

 

As presented on the show, Min isn't a fortune teller or psychic; she's an Oracle.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 12/19/2021 at 2:42 PM, DigificWriter said:

Because the show establishes that Min's visions are actual glimpses of future events.

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I’m not sure we can simply assume this. For example, her visions of Nyn and Eg were not “actual glimpses of future events”. They were symbols. Moreover, we haven’t established whether Min is an entirely reliable narrator. 
 

Her vision of Rand with a baby (that appears to have East Asian features) could apply to herself and not to Rand. (Or to both, I guess). It could signal that they will shift the pregnancy plot from Elayne to Min. Or that Min will also become pregnant. 

 

 

[Sabio]

I liked her story about seeing Rand's dad carrying the baby, but her vision about wit did seem a bit to detailed, with the Wooden cabin near sheep etc..  Made a good story but seemed alot for a vision.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Her visions are meant to leave bit of doubt, like in the book the Falcon and the Eagle, ends up being two people.  Some are straight forward and easy to explain like those two will marry, that person will die, they will fall in love.  But usually they are stuff like an eye on a scale., a white flame or a gold ring (which got an odd look from Moiraine),  Stuff not necessarily that you can explain immedietly as Elder said they're symbols.  The gold ring is probably Lan, the flame Amirlyn seat etc.  Things book readers might know but a new viewer wouldn't.  But the viewing is more of a symbol then an outright fortune telling.

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Sabio

[Pandemonium]

Yes I believe the baby Rand is holding is Min & Rand's.  Min has likely already seen herself falling in love with Rand.  She isn't going to tell Moiraine that.  Her whole private conversation with Rand seems to imply she knows more than she is letting on.

[VooDooNut]

Hrrrrmmmm. No one else seems to think the Rand/Baby moment is from TGH portal stones scene, huh? It's the most convincing explanation for me, especially because the viewed moment could easily happen within the early parts of the second season.